Total Depravity

bottomofsandal

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2012
1,966
306
America
✟11,113.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Would 'depravity' be subjective or objective in the equation? Or would that be an individuals call depending on where they are in their journey of life and with or without Christ?
The Spirit illuminates our understanding of our sinful condition, but our understanding may be incomplete.
We don't understand other concepts at salvation either: justification, sanctification, or even God's mercy.
The longer our walk, the deeper the knowledge and wisdom from above into spiritual matters.

IMVHO, we cannot entirely grasp how depraved we really are when we are saved.
Similarly, I believe when we are in Heaven we will know what God really thinks about sin.

What do you think?
 
Upvote 0

VanillaSunflowers

Black Lives Don't Matter More Than Any Other Life
Jul 26, 2016
3,741
1,733
DE
✟18,570.00
Faith
Nazarene
Marital Status
Married
The Spirit illuminates our understanding of our sinful condition, but our understanding may be incomplete.
We don't understand other concepts at salvation either: justification, sanctification, or even God's mercy.
The longer our walk, the deeper the knowledge and wisdom from above into spiritual matters.

IMVHO, we cannot entirely grasp how depraved we really are when we are saved.
Similarly, I believe when we are in Heaven we will know what God really thinks about sin.

What do you think?
I think each of us has the holy spirit speaking inside and guiding the way. :):hug:
 
Upvote 0

VanillaSunflowers

Black Lives Don't Matter More Than Any Other Life
Jul 26, 2016
3,741
1,733
DE
✟18,570.00
Faith
Nazarene
Marital Status
Married
T in the TULIP can also be thought of as total inability.
http://www.theopedia.com/total-depravity
Summary of the doctrine
The doctrine of total inability teaches that people are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, as he requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will.

Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as bad as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Although total depravity is easily confused with philosophical cynicism, the doctrine teaches optimism concerning God's love for what he has made and God's ability to accomplish the ultimate good that he intends for his creation. In particular, in the process of salvation, it is argued that God overcomes man's inability with his divine grace and enables men and women to choose to follow him, though the precise means of this overcoming varies between the theological systems.

Philippians 2:21New King James Version (NKJV)
21 For all seek their own, not the things which are of Christ Jesus.
Interesting alternative to the usual. Thank you. :)

Maybe what we're all doing here is trying to unite with that inner self that is way down inside as the conscience we understand from a human perspective. But that is actually the portal of our higher self that whispers what we need to do to be better than we think we are.
 
Upvote 0

bottomofsandal

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2012
1,966
306
America
✟11,113.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
T in the TULIP can also be thought of as total inability.
http://www.theopedia.com/total-depravity
Summary of the doctrine
The doctrine of total inability teaches that people are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, as he requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will.

Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as bad as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Although total depravity is easily confused with philosophical cynicism, the doctrine teaches optimism concerning God's love for what he has made and God's ability to accomplish the ultimate good that he intends for his creation. In particular, in the process of salvation, it is argued that God overcomes man's inability with his divine grace and enables men and women to choose to follow him, though the precise means of this overcoming varies between the theological systems.

Philippians 2:21New King James Version (NKJV)
21 For all seek their own, not the things which are of Christ Jesus.
That's a good starting point. Thanks.


There is disagreement as to how far man has fallen. IOW, how low did he go?
A point of contention is how much good still remains in man after the fall.
Is man weakened, damaged, paralyzed, or spiritually dead? What is man's state?


The Bible says God quickened us when we were dead. What can a dead man accomplish?
Some want us to believe man possesses spiritual abilities and can functionally make good decisions.
Are there any Calvinists here? Is the author of the thread a Calvinist?
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
That's a good starting point. Thanks.


There is disagreement as to how far man has fallen. IOW, how low did he go?
A point of contention is how much good still remains in man after the fall.
Is man weakened, damaged, paralyzed, or spiritually dead? What is man's state?


The Bible says God quickened us when we were dead. What can a dead man accomplish?
Some want us to believe man possesses spiritual abilities and can functionally make good decisions.
Are there any Calvinists here? Is the author of the thread a Calvinist?

Sure, I am calvinist. Yes of course fallen man is dead in sin, Did not God tell Adam the day he eats that fruit he will die, 'dieing you will die.'
Fallen man, well he has fallen and can not stand victorious as an overcomer of the world in the judgement when facing the Son of Man. We who believe overcome the world and Satan by our faith. Dead men can not have faith, they are overcome by the world. To not be an overcomer means your headed for the second death in the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
If you are born of God, then you will overcome the world. That is God's decree for you.
If you are an overcomer, then many precious promises God has in store for you.
Born of God comes prior to faith. Faith is a gift of God He gives to those who are first born of Him. You can not overcome the world unless you are born of God, otherwise you are of the world, not chosen out of the world.
You can not believe Jesus is the Christ, unless you are born of God.

1 John 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

Revelation 2:11
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’

Revelation 2:17
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

Revelation 2:26
And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 3:12
He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bottomofsandal

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2012
1,966
306
America
✟11,113.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Sure, I am calvinist. Yes of course fallen man is dead in sin, Did not God tell Adam the day he eats that fruit he will die, 'dieing you will die.'
Fallen man, well he has fallen and can not stand victorious as an overcomer of the world in the judgement when facing the Son of Man. We who believe overcome the world and Satan by our faith. Dead men can not have faith, they are overcome by the world. To not be an overcomer means your headed for the second death in the lake of fire.
Pelagianism believes man has goodness. Jesus disagrees in Matthew 19:17 (no one is good).
Even Hitler was good, he simply could not turn on his goodness light switch perhaps.
This pov beckons the belief God needs our help and God's grace is impotently deficient.

This must be true to adhere to Pelagianism. Man is good enough to make good choices.
The Bible says we must be quickened, filled by The Spirit, and born of God. Did some get a head start ?
This sounds like hyper-Calvinism. Why then are some men able to chose God, while some cannot?

The answer is startling. Grace is NOT the difference maker...rather it's the power of man!
On their own, in the flesh, powered by the old man, some are able to save themselves.
Some refuse to consider depravity, inability, and unwillingness as an impediment to salvation.

Man in control of his destiny, by his might, with a carnal nature somehow desires God???
Why can some men choose salvation when others cannot? Must be something in them?
If there is enough leftover goodness from Adam after the fall, why only can they appropriate?
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
Pelagianism believes man has goodness. Jesus disagrees in Matthew 19:17 (no one is good).
Even Hitler was good, he simply could not turn on his goodness light switch perhaps.
This pov beckons the belief God needs our help and God's grace is impotently deficient.

This must be true to adhere to Pelagianism. Man is good enough to make good choices.
The Bible says we must be quickened, filled by The Spirit, and born of God. Did some get a head start ?
This sounds like hyper-Calvinism. Why then are some men able to chose God, while some cannot?

The answer is startling. Grace is NOT the difference maker...rather it's the power of man!
On their own, in the flesh, powered by the old man, some are able to save themselves.
Some refuse to consider depravity, inability, and unwillingness as an impediment to salvation.

Man in control of his destiny, by his might, with a carnal nature somehow desires God???
Why can some men choose salvation when others cannot? Must be something in them?
If there is enough leftover goodness from Adam after the fall, why only can they appropriate?

We did not desire Him. Isaiah 53.
It is He who chose us, not that we chose Him. We are chosen out of the world in Him.

Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Ephesians 1:3-5New King James Version (NKJV)
Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Romans 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
[ Stand Fast ] But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
 
Upvote 0

bottomofsandal

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2012
1,966
306
America
✟11,113.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
We did not desire Him. Isaiah 53.
It is He who chose us, not that we chose Him. We are chosen out of the world in Him.

Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Ephesians 1:3-5New King James Version (NKJV)
Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Romans 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
[ Stand Fast ] But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
The Word of God is crystal clear!
If God is not given the glory, then man takes it for himself.


I choose. I draw myself. I desire. I self-overcome.
If a man fails to perceive his depravity, he believes he operates out of his own power.
He doesn't of course, he just he convinces himself that he can captain his own salvation.


If man is not depraved, then he must think himself to be a god?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,962.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
How would you describe the relationship between free will and a human nature that can be tempted? Adam and Eve were tempted. Jesus, as a human man with a human nature, was tempted.

All mature adults have a needed survival instinct (this makes eternal life of value for one thing). Having a survival instinct means you have to have self-awareness, value for self, self-preservation desire, and some degree of selfishness (this is human nature that even Adam and Eve had). This (selfish) part of our nature allows us and Jesus to be tempted, but it must be there.
 
Upvote 0

bottomofsandal

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2012
1,966
306
America
✟11,113.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I think so.
How free is that will if it can be tempted and if human nature is totally depraved?
What do you mean by free will?
Is there a Biblical definition?

I hear people say we have "limited" free will.
 
Upvote 0

Hank77

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 26, 2015
26,368
15,457
✟1,099,338.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
All mature adults have a needed survival instinct (this makes eternal life of value for one thing). Having a survival instinct means you have to have self-awareness, value for self, self-preservation desire, and some degree of selfishness (this is human nature that even Adam and Eve had). This (selfish) part of our nature allows us and Jesus to be tempted, but it must be there.
I hadn't thought about temptation being related to self in all of these different facets. I'll think about this. Interesting.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hank77

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 26, 2015
26,368
15,457
✟1,099,338.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What do you mean by free will?
Is there a Biblical definition?

I hear people say we have "limited" free will.
God has granted us not only the ability to reason but to make choices.
There is not one scripture but many scriptures that are examples to us of people making choices about obedience to God, both negative and positive.
In both types of choices I would say yes, in almost all, that choices were not completely free. When Eve sinned it was not a complete free choice, she was tempted and her knowledge of God's words had been corrupted. Adam however, knew what God said and was not tempted. The reason for his sin doesn't seem as clear to me, maybe more willful, more free.
So yes in most cases, limited.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,962.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What I mean is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) effected Adam and Eve's nature so they became able to disobey. While they were God's "very good" creation . . . I understand that God's "very good" creation could not of its own nature choose to do what is not good. However, as I consider, their nature was not immune to evil like God is > James 1:13.

And so, a point of this, as concerns how I personally understand "total depravity", is I think that we of ourselves, even if we were perfect creations like Adam and Eve, we also would not have a chance against Satan and his evil spirit. So, we all are in the same boat, needing how God alone is able to make us stable in His love. And this means becoming . . . each of us becoming . . . "one spirit with Him" (in 1 Corinthians 6:17). In oneness with God, each of us can share with God in His own strength and immunity to how evil would try to effect Him and us. In His love, we have His almighty immunity, including against fear >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:17)

You are missing the main issue: If Adam and Eve’s “nature” was changed by: “"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" then God did not make them “stable in His love” (“perfect”), so they could avoid this “spirit” like Christians today can avoid this “spirit”.



First > humans now have their self interest . . . now that humans are in sin. But Adam and Eve were not always how humans have become. And in the sin condition, humans have been slaves of "fear of death" > Hebrews 2:14-15. In "fear of death" ones are insecure and therefore not feeling taken-care-of, and so they can be mainly or only about watching out for their own selves. But in God's love, we do not have this fear; and so we can generously run our cups over to others, without feeling we will run out of resources or be unsafe (1 Peter 3:13) :)
.

Are you saying Adam and Eve did not have enough self-interest to want to live (life had no value to them)?

Did Adam and Eve have a survival instinct?

The reason Christians do not fear “physical death” is because they have assurance of eternal life, but that does not mean “self-interest” has gone away. The Christian’s self-interest has been totally satisfied (we have everything including a birthright to an eternal home).


The Bible has not said it is robotic for God to bless us with how His love has us become. If you have been dead in sin, you already are dead; while being love-dead, we have been robots and puppets of the devil, maybe we could say. So, if God changes you to become alive in love, why accuse Him of making you a robot? This could be mixing up God and the devil; God makes alive, but the devil uses and controls and wastes people.

A thing is that God knows that if He changes a love-dead person into a really loving person, that person will appreciate this; but while the person is selfish, his or her way of filtering a message about love will have the love-dead person interpreting the message the wrong way.

I myself have been in denial about how I have been a whatever you want to say. And people would confront me, and I would be in denial, then God would change me so I am alive in love. And I am not complaining!!!
.

First off: we are not “robots” of satan, making our sins satan’s responsibility (quit blaming satan for your past sins). We always have free will, but by choice are slaves of satan and sinners, God blames us and not satan.

God does not just instinctively “place” Godly type Love into some humans, but it is obtain as a result of one human selfish choice. Jesus has taught us and we know from our own experiences: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” so if you humbly accept God’s forgiveness as a pure charity you are forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt and thus will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). God wants to shower this Love upon everyone, but like the prodigal son we have to come to our own senses and make the free will choice to turn to God for help. This world will drive every mature adult to his/her senses, but they still have to make the selfish choice of going to God for what they totally do not deserve (pure charity) or staying in the pigsty of life and taking what they do deserve.

:)

I consider that the child has an advantage, if the parents are mature Christians. They might pray for the child and even spend time talking with the child . . . while the child is unborn. Then the born child has their example of how to relate in love.

But, theologically, I can not make a one-size-fits-all statement about how things will be spiritually for each unborn child of a mature couple in Jesus. Usually, by the way, people have their children while they are younger couples. But I consider what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7, about how the children of a Christian are clean. So, I am personally open about this.
.

We will just leave it as unknown, but do you see it as fair/just for God to treat a new born baby of a Christian “better” than the new born child of a pagan family just because of their birth parents?

In John 9: 1-7 the disciples thought the child born blind must have had bad parents or the child himself was bad, but Jesus said it was neither and when on to explain. Jesus did not blame: Adam & Eve, Satan, God, bad luck, or anyone’s sin, but said it was for the good that can come from it. That can be the answer to all tragedies and seems to be.



Because Jesus is the Son of God . . . "the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4) with nothing but God in that image :) And God "cannot be tempted by evil", we have in James 1:13. So, because Jesus by nature is God, He can not be tempted by evil. His nature has almighty immunity against howsoever evil would try to effect and infect Him. And we who are in Jesus have Jesus as our new inner Person growing in us, more and more sharing with us His own almighty immunity > Galatians 4:19, 1 John 4:17.

So, this feeds into our discussion about "total depravity". We in ourselves have been human persons, not almighty with immunity against evil and sin and the dominating and dictatorial passions for pleasure and revenge and comparing and self-righteously criticizing and unforgiveness. So, we totally depend on God to change our nature so we share in nature with Jesus in us making us new creatures of love > 2 Corinthians 5:17. Because of our own human nature, especially since it already has been corrupted (Ephesians 2:2), there is no way our selfish character is going to get us to choose to become truly loving. So, yes it is depraved as well as dependent.
.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

Jesus had free will and personally wanted to avoid going to the cross, so there was a temptation there.

Why were we not made just like Christ with this “immunity”? Did God lack the Love or power to make us this way?

The question is not if God or man has to power to change, since God only has the power, but can humans in a “dead” state still do something? The prodigal son by Jesus’ definition of “dead” while in a dead state was able to “come to his senses and turn to his father” but it was not done out of “Love” for the father, but to selfishly have just some kind of life (a life he totally did not deserve).

I have offered how any of us would have done no better! :) I would have done the same thing and therefore started the same whole mess. And I note how our Apostle Paul says "we" "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others", in Ephesians 2:3. So, from this, I see that no one of us has been any better than anyone else; and so each of us would have done the same thing, in the garden. And no one on this earth, also, then, has been somehow superior to others, so he or she has gotten oneself to choose Jesus while others haven't . . . by the way. Again, this supports, in my personal logic, that each of us totally depends on God in order to choose Jesus and at any time to choose right > also considering Philippians 2:13.
.

I am not saying anyone with the nature God gave them can “chose” to do anything worthy of anything, but humans can make the selfish choice to accept God’s help. Wimp out, giving up and surrendering is not “worthy” of anything activities, but is a humbling activity that will allow a person to accept pure charity.

From this, I understand you could mean that one mature in love is going to make mainly the choice to live in God's love; because the person has matured in God's love; by becoming a love person, his or her nature is limited to free willing what is loving. How well have I butchered what you mean, here, or rightly represented you? :)
.

NO!! not at all!!! The person hell bound has no reason to “love” God and that is how all mature adults start out. You have to become a wimp, unwilling to be macho enough to pay the piper; accept the punishment you fully deserve. You cannot of your own free will “Love” with Godly type Love, but you can for selfish reasons accept God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.

Well, it depends on which way the child is going. There are ones who are in the process of gaining correction so they get more and more clear of sinning and are learning how to love. Others could already be getting "worse and worse" (in 2 Timothy 3:13).

A point is that we need to pray to God for how He is able to bless our children . . . whether we believe in free will or total dependence or total wickedness or whatever. Do what we need to do! God is so better able to do our children good, than we are; so trust Him for all which is possible with Him.

A fair question, but I am "scratching my head" :) because my answer probably won't make me look good. So, let me try not to let that be a factor.

Apparently, the LORD blamed Adam, Eve, and Satan. And each got one's consequences. This is the easy-out answer, since this shows how the LORD Himself blamed :)

But I do understand that Adam and Eve did not have a chance against Satan. But they did get consequences. They were judged. And so I understand that I do not need to be theorizing about this. I will reap what I sow. And only God is able to make me successful in real loving, including really pleasing Him. It is not only about blame; if we stay in less than God's love, as much as we are weak in less than God's love, we are going to be messed by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). And what we need is not blaming and arguing theory, but to simply do what God's word says to do about this > trust in Jesus, if one has not (Ephesians 1:12), and seek our Father for His personal correction > Hebrews 12:4-11 < of His love's perfection > 1 John 4:17.

So, I am not blaming God, even if He could have stayed with Adam and Eve and kept that thing from happening. What did happen is a fair warning of what can happen with us, without God; and I think we all have sampled this, already, more or less. So, if we just blame and accuse God, who has us doing this . . . instead of trusting Him for all He is able to do with us, like 1 Peter 5:7 says to do?

And what else could I expect from Satan, in the matter? I'm not sure blaming is relevant. I think mainly we need to see how this is an object lesson of our need for God. Adam and Eve had been actually in personal conversation with the LORD; yet, they were able to do what they did. This can show how we need more than to have God speaking to us, and doing mighty wonders. We need how He actually changes our nature so we are with Him in His love and leading. We can not afford to be left on our own, even in perfect circumstances like in the garden.

So, who to blame and whether God is fair is not relevant. He is our only and really good resource. And Jesus says that only God is good, right? So, though creatures have been "good" in some creature way, we have not had the goodness, even in perfect circumstances like in the garden, to get ourselves to be and do the good which is possible in sharing with God.

So . . . I offer how I get what people are saying about what God would do if He was "fair". But that has not happened, has it? And the Bible gives us so much about all God is able and willing to do with us; so why throw all this out, just for the sake of a few words of arguing by ones who are not doing us anything close to as good as all which the Bible guarantees God does with His children? Have the ones arguing against God given us anything better than all which God's word guarantees to us who trust and obey Jesus? Not to my knowledge.
.

God through Christ while here on earth and the whole Bible has defined what fair/just is and what unjust/unfair is, so either God has to live up to that standard or God Himself is being hypocritical. I only see God as being totally fair and just in history and life.

God is doing and/or allowing everything possible to help willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. That “everything” includes: Jesus going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, death, hell and even sin.

You said; “ I will reap what I sow.”, but I know and have experienced not reaping what I have sown after the flesh and do not plan on reaping that. Just as Gal. 6: 9 tells us we can loss the harvest of eternal life by giving up, we can also loss the harvest of the whirlwind by giving up sowing after the flesh.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,962.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why would it make it God's fault that Adam and Eve chose to sin and that their offspring cannot be otherwise than affected by that sin? Their decision to sin was a rebellious announcement that they wished to do things on their own. Wanted to become like God via setting moral standards and deciding for themselves what should be considered good and what should be considered evil. Once that choice was made they had to be allowed to proceed on their own in order to prove them and their satanic supporter wrong.

If sin has purpose in helping willing individuals fulfill their objective while on earth, then there is no “issue” with God allowing Adam and Eve and all mature adults to sin. If sinning does not help willing nonbeliever to humbly accept God’s Charity in the form of forgiveness, then God should not have allowed Adam and Eve to sin.
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
God through Christ while here on earth and the whole Bible has defined what fair/just is and what unjust/unfair is, so either God has to live up to that standard or God Himself is being hypocritical. I only see God as being totally fair and just in history and life.

What is fair and just is for God to send every person who ever lived to hell for their sins.
I do not want God to live up to the fairness standard in my life, or my destiny would be hell.


Genesis 39:21
But the Lord was with Joseph and showed him mercy, and He gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison.

Exodus 15:13
You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength To Your holy habitation.

Exodus 33:19
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you.
I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
 
Upvote 0

bottomofsandal

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2012
1,966
306
America
✟11,113.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
What is fair and just is for God to send every person who ever lived to hell for their sins.
I do not want God to live up to the fairness standard in my life, or my destiny would be hell.
I hear what you are saying.
Man somehow thinks God is required to be fair.
God never cites fairness as an attribute.


Romans 9:19-21New King James Version (NKJV)
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?


...sound fair?
 
  • Like
Reactions: sdowney717
Upvote 0

EmSw

White Horse Rider
Apr 26, 2014
6,434
718
✟66,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I hear what you are saying.
Man somehow thinks God is required to be fair.
God never cites fairness as an attribute.


Romans 9:19-21New King James Version (NKJV)
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

...sound fair?

Isaiah 1
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Why not talk to God about His dealings with man?

Isaiah 63
16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.


Many men have replied back to God. Even Jesus Himself replied back to God on the cross.

Abraham replied back to God about the inhabitants of Sodom.

Moses replied back to God on behalf of the children of Israel.

Job replied back to God.

In all of the above examples, God replied back to man.

Paul's question came from himself. Verse 15 of Romans 9 was taken out of context. Read it for yourself; don't take man's word for it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,962.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What is fair and just is for God to send every person who ever lived to hell for their sins.
I do not want God to live up to the fairness standard in my life, or my destiny would be hell.

God is fair/just and He cannot change, so there is nothing you can do about that.

God has made promises that He must consistently keep to be the God of the Bible (not a liar).

Accord to God, a person who humbly accepts His charity will receive His charity consistently.

Fairness/justice must include: treating people, doing and thinking the same, consistently the same way and not arbitrarily selecting some and not others to be treated better or worse.

Every mature adult has sinned so in that respect deserves Hell, but those that accept God’s forgiveness are consistently saved, so that is totally fair/just.

Genesis 39:21
But the Lord was with Joseph and showed him mercy, and He gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison.

Exodus 15:13
You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength To Your holy habitation.

Exodus 33:19
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you.
I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

Joseph was not like the other prisoners so how is God being inconsistent?

I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

God has told us he will be compassionate and gracious on those who Love Him, so this does not mean God is being arbitrary with His compassion and mercy?
 
Upvote 0