What I mean is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) effected Adam and Eve's nature so they became able to disobey. While they were God's "very good" creation . . . I understand that God's "very good" creation could not of its own nature choose to do what is not good. However, as I consider, their nature was not immune to evil like God is > James 1:13.
And so, a point of this, as concerns how I personally understand "total depravity", is I think that we of ourselves, even if we were perfect creations like Adam and Eve, we also would not have a chance against Satan and his evil spirit. So, we all are in the same boat, needing how God alone is able to make us stable in His love. And this means becoming . . . each of us becoming . . . "one spirit with Him" (in 1 Corinthians 6:17). In oneness with God, each of us can share with God in His own strength and immunity to how evil would try to effect Him and us. In His love, we have His almighty immunity, including against fear >
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:17)
You are missing the main issue: If Adam and Eve’s “nature” was changed by: “"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" then God did not make them “stable in His love” (“perfect”), so they could avoid this “spirit” like Christians today can avoid this “spirit”.
First > humans now have their self interest . . . now that humans are in sin. But Adam and Eve were not always how humans have become. And in the sin condition, humans have been slaves of "fear of death" > Hebrews 2:14-15. In "fear of death" ones are insecure and therefore not feeling taken-care-of, and so they can be mainly or only about watching out for their own selves. But in God's love, we do not have this fear; and so we can generously run our cups over to others, without feeling we will run out of resources or be unsafe (1 Peter 3:13)
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Are you saying Adam and Eve did not have enough self-interest to want to live (life had no value to them)?
Did Adam and Eve have a survival instinct?
The reason Christians do not fear “physical death” is because they have assurance of eternal life, but that does not mean “self-interest” has gone away. The Christian’s self-interest has been
totally satisfied (we have everything including a birthright to an eternal home).
The Bible has not said it is robotic for God to bless us with how His love has us become. If you have been dead in sin, you already are dead; while being love-dead, we have been robots and puppets of the devil, maybe we could say. So, if God changes you to become alive in love, why accuse Him of making you a robot? This could be mixing up God and the devil; God makes alive, but the devil uses and controls and wastes people.
A thing is that God knows that if He changes a love-dead person into a really loving person, that person will appreciate this; but while the person is selfish, his or her way of filtering a message about love will have the love-dead person interpreting the message the wrong way.
I myself have been in denial about how I have been a whatever you want to say. And people would confront me, and I would be in denial, then God would change me so I am alive in love. And I am not complaining!!!
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First off: we are not “robots” of satan, making our sins satan’s responsibility (quit blaming satan for your past sins). We always have free will, but by choice are slaves of satan and sinners, God blames us and not satan.
God does not just instinctively “place” Godly type Love into some humans, but it is obtain as a result of one human
selfish choice. Jesus has taught us and we know from our own experiences: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” so if you humbly accept God’s forgiveness as a pure charity you are forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt and thus will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). God wants to shower this Love upon everyone, but like the prodigal son we have to come to our own senses and make the free will choice to turn to God for help. This world will drive every mature adult to his/her senses, but they still have to make the selfish choice of going to God for what they totally do not deserve (pure charity) or staying in the pigsty of life and taking what they do deserve.
I consider that the child has an advantage, if the parents are mature Christians. They might pray for the child and even spend time talking with the child . . . while the child is unborn. Then the born child has their example of how to relate in love.
But, theologically, I can not make a one-size-fits-all statement about how things will be spiritually for each unborn child of a mature couple in Jesus. Usually, by the way, people have their children while they are younger couples. But I consider what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7, about how the children of a Christian are clean. So, I am personally open about this.
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We will just leave it as unknown, but do you see it as fair/just for God to treat a new born baby of a Christian “better” than the new born child of a pagan family just because of their birth parents?
In John 9: 1-7 the disciples thought the child born blind must have had bad parents or the child himself was bad, but Jesus said it was neither and when on to explain. Jesus did not blame: Adam & Eve, Satan, God, bad luck, or anyone’s sin, but said it was for the good that can come from it. That can be the answer to all tragedies and seems to be.
Because Jesus is the Son of God . . . "the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4) with nothing but God in that image
And God "cannot be tempted by evil", we have in James 1:13. So, because Jesus by nature is God, He can not be tempted by evil. His nature has almighty immunity against howsoever evil would try to effect and infect Him. And we who are in Jesus have Jesus as our new inner Person growing in us, more and more sharing with us His own almighty immunity > Galatians 4:19, 1 John 4:17.
So, this feeds into our discussion about "total depravity". We in ourselves have been human persons, not almighty with immunity against evil and sin and the dominating and dictatorial passions for pleasure and revenge and comparing and self-righteously criticizing and unforgiveness. So, we totally depend on God to change our nature so we share in nature with Jesus in us making us new creatures of love > 2 Corinthians 5:17. Because of our own human nature, especially since it already has been corrupted (Ephesians 2:2), there is no way our selfish character is going to get us to choose to become truly loving. So, yes it is depraved as well as dependent.
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Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have
one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
Jesus had free will and personally wanted to avoid going to the cross, so there was a temptation there.
Why were we not made just like Christ with this “immunity”? Did God lack the Love or power to make us this way?
The question is not if God or man has to power to change, since God only has the power, but can humans in a “dead” state still do something? The prodigal son by Jesus’ definition of “dead” while in a dead state was able to “come to his senses and turn to his father” but it was not done out of “Love” for the father, but to selfishly have just some kind of life (a life he totally did not deserve).
I have offered how any of us would have done no better!
I would have done the same thing and therefore started the same whole mess. And I note how our Apostle Paul says "we" "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others", in Ephesians 2:3. So, from this, I see that no one of us has been any better than anyone else; and so each of us would have done the same thing, in the garden. And no one on this earth, also, then, has been somehow superior to others, so he or she has gotten oneself to choose Jesus while others haven't . . . by the way. Again, this supports, in my personal logic, that each of us totally depends on God in order to choose Jesus and at any time to choose right > also considering Philippians 2:13.
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I am not saying anyone with the nature God gave them can “chose” to do anything worthy of anything, but humans can make the selfish choice to accept God’s help. Wimp out, giving up and surrendering is not “worthy” of anything activities, but is a humbling activity that will allow a person to accept pure charity.
From this, I understand you could mean that one mature in love is going to make mainly the choice to live in God's love; because the person has matured in God's love; by becoming a love person, his or her nature is limited to free willing what is loving. How well have I butchered what you mean, here, or rightly represented you?
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NO!! not at all!!! The person hell bound has no reason to “love” God and that is how all mature adults start out. You have to become a
wimp, unwilling to be macho enough to pay the piper; accept the punishment you fully deserve. You cannot of your own free will “Love” with Godly type Love, but you can for selfish reasons accept God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.
Well, it depends on which way the child is going. There are ones who are in the process of gaining correction so they get more and more clear of sinning and are learning how to love. Others could already be getting "worse and worse" (in 2 Timothy 3:13).
A point is that we need to pray to God for how He is able to bless our children . . . whether we believe in free will or total dependence or total wickedness or whatever. Do what we need to do! God is so better able to do our children good, than we are; so trust Him for all which is possible with Him.
A fair question, but I am "scratching my head"
because my answer probably won't make me look good. So, let me try not to let that be a factor.
Apparently, the LORD blamed Adam, Eve, and Satan. And each got one's consequences. This is the easy-out answer, since this shows how the LORD Himself blamed
But I do understand that Adam and Eve did not have a chance against Satan. But they did get consequences. They were judged. And so I understand that I do not need to be theorizing about this. I will reap what I sow. And only God is able to make me successful in real loving, including really pleasing Him. It is not only about blame; if we stay in less than God's love, as much as we are weak in less than God's love, we are going to be messed by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). And what we need is not blaming and arguing theory, but to simply do what God's word says to do about this > trust in Jesus, if one has not (Ephesians 1:12), and seek our Father for His personal correction > Hebrews 12:4-11 < of His love's perfection > 1 John 4:17.
So, I am not blaming God, even if He could have stayed with Adam and Eve and kept that thing from happening. What did happen is a fair warning of what can happen with us, without God; and I think we all have sampled this, already, more or less. So, if we just blame and accuse God, who has us doing this . . . instead of trusting Him for all He is able to do with us, like 1 Peter 5:7 says to do?
And what else could I expect from Satan, in the matter? I'm not sure blaming is relevant. I think mainly we need to see how this is an object lesson of our need for God. Adam and Eve had been actually in personal conversation with the LORD; yet, they were able to do what they did. This can show how we need more than to have God speaking to us, and doing mighty wonders. We need how He actually changes our nature so we are with Him in His love and leading. We can not afford to be left on our own, even in perfect circumstances like in the garden.
So, who to blame and whether God is fair is not relevant. He is our only and really good resource. And Jesus says that only God is good, right? So, though creatures have been "good" in some creature way, we have not had the goodness, even in perfect circumstances like in the garden, to get ourselves to be and do the good which is possible in sharing with God.
So . . . I offer how I get what people are saying about what God would do if He was "fair". But that has not happened, has it? And the Bible gives us so much about all God is able and willing to do with us; so why throw all this out, just for the sake of a few words of arguing by ones who are not doing us anything close to as good as all which the Bible guarantees God does with His children? Have the ones arguing against God given us anything better than all which God's word guarantees to us who trust and obey Jesus? Not to my knowledge.
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God through Christ while here on earth and the whole Bible has defined what fair/just is and what unjust/unfair is, so either God has to live up to that standard or God Himself is being hypocritical. I only see God as being totally fair and just in history and life.
God is doing and/or allowing everything possible to help
willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. That “everything” includes: Jesus going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, death, hell and even sin.
You said; “ I will reap what I sow.”, but I know and have experienced not reaping what I have sown after the flesh and do not plan on reaping that. Just as Gal. 6: 9 tells us we can loss the harvest of eternal life by giving up, we can also loss the harvest of the whirlwind by giving up sowing after the flesh.