Today's Ruling

[DZoolander]

eZoolander, what do you believe about Jesus?

What did Jesus have to say on the subject of homosexuality?

 

[mkgal1]

To be honest - I know a few gay people - and I know a couple of gay people that are married. None of them want to have anything to do with any church. They understand that "Christians" generally seem to look at them as the penultimate sinners - and as a result - they want very little to do with people "of faith".

Generally speaking - I think that's true - so this concern people have about the "gays now trying to force themselves on the church" I think is a bit misplaced.

Fortunately---that's not true across the board:

 

[LinkH]

MkGal1, it's hard to fathom how you can believe as you do on this, considering some of your stances on other issues.

Do you care what God has revealed in the Bible? Don't you see what marriage is in the Bible, in the creation, that God made male and female. He put a picture of the Gospel in creation when He created man and woman, and two were one flesh. This speaks of Christ and the church. This is depicted through male and female. The union is not between two christ's or two churches.

Doesn't it bother you that a righteous and holy God decreed that men who had sexual relations with other men in Israel be put to death? That was the same penalty for adultery, idolatry, murder, and sex with animals. Doesn't it effect your thinking on this issue, that the Bible calls these homosexual activities, done by consenting individuals acting in the lusts of their own hearts to be given up to 'dishonorable passions', performing 'shameless acts' and doing what is 'contrary to nature'? Biology should teach us a few things.

How can you oppose polygamy or adultery or premarital sex if you endorse this sort of wickedness?

Love does not delight in iniquity but rejoices in the truth.

There is good news in verse 11 for those who are caught up in this,

I Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(ESV)

Endorsing and enabling people in their wickedness is not the way to show the love of God.

 

[HannahT]

(Shrugs) They shouldn't be marginalized. Yet, they are. Marginalization isn't truth, and its not love, nor a show of God's position. The behavior I have seen is more like a reviler, and yet to many endorse and enable that. So, it seems both sides don't know how to show the love of God I guess.

What I see is a clear loss of balance. That seems to be breeding hate and contempt. That's not good for anyone.

I'll never understand the homosexual passions like I do the heterosexual for obvious reasons. I refuse to show hate and contempt like I have seen over this debate - it makes me sick. I have also seen individuals that don't agree with the passions, but at the same time show compassion to those that do. I personally find that more balanced myself.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I think many defenders of homosexuality don't understand what christians are saying. They seem to say to us "How does gay marriage effect you? Why worry about it?. We know it doesn't effect our lives per say. But as christians we are still supposed to hold the view that we are against it. We know that it would be accepted one day because the bible said things would get worse before the end. It doesn't mean though we can't speak out against it though even if we realize we ourselves have no power to change it.

But we must remember that these people who get married have no salvation as a couple. The bible (aside from the scriptures against homosexuality) says you cannot serve two masters. As in you cannot say "I am a christian who lives by God rules... but I am in a homosexual marriage!". Its like saying your a christian who also is part satanist. So we care about these peoples salvation and where they go after they die. Hence we are showing love, which is exactly what the bible says to do. I will say though this DOES technically affect straight marriage because it means it changes things with insurance, benefits...etc. We will have to pay more now. Which means we are to some degree supporting these marriages now. Not that we have much of a choice.

Actually while my concern was this would eventually be lawful, my bigger concern was what would happen after (as stated earlier). Now that they have this right will they stop attacking christians? Or will they prove they have an agenda and try to change christianity itself? What if some chose to sue a pastor now because he won't marry them? What if they want pastors to not be allowed to teach homosexuality is a sin? Though I was told this is a "State" rule so really since a pastor is not working for the state, then they do not have to accept homosexual marriage. Just as a buisness still doesn't have to. The buisness though as always will be able to be sued alot easier then the pastor since the pastor has religious freedom. I seen plenty of "christian" pastors/priests/bishops (somehow)...etc on the news performing these marriage after the ruling.

With all this said one thing we also need to remember too is that we really shouldn't worry about all this. God says to have hope and faith in Him. If we worry about this to much then we have lost focus. Which is why overall this news was not shocking to me. If anything I know theres worse yet to come in general for the planet. Its why my hope is in God. And its why I'm really trying to avoid these sort of conversations because eventually BOTH sides end up being stubborn, immature and disrespectful. Which to me is especially ironic because supporters of this issue say they are about respect yet they don't want to respect others have an opinion.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Just noticed this... its perfect to what many are saying:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/26/livin...l?sr=fb062715nextbattlesamesex1200pVODtopLink

 

[DZoolander]

You're probably right that there will be stuff like that which follows .

While I have been an ally in their right to obtain that legal definition of being "married" - for pragmatic legal reasons and privileges - they would lose me as an ally in the fight to compel churches to perform or acknowledge their unions.

 

[Thunder Peel]

(Shrugs) They shouldn't be marginalized. Yet, they are. Marginalization isn't truth, and its not love, nor a show of God's position. The behavior I have seen is more like a reviler, and yet to many endorse and enable that. So, it seems both sides don't know how to show the love of God I guess.

What I see is a clear loss of balance. That seems to be breeding hate and contempt. That's not good for anyone.

I'll never understand the homosexual passions like I do the heterosexual for obvious reasons. I refuse to show hate and contempt like I have seen over this debate - it makes me sick. I have also seen individuals that don't agree with the passions, but at the same time show compassion to those that do. I personally find that more balanced myself.

There's nothing hateful about upholding God's word. I've seen far more venom and hate coming from the LGBT community toward those of us who oppose it than those saying they don't agree with the lifestyle.

 

[tall73]

Just noticed this... its perfect to what many are saying:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/26/livin...l?sr=fb062715nextbattlesamesex1200pVODtopLink

If the country is going to define marriage as something beyond what the Bible defines, why shouldn't the church just get out of the legal aspect of marriage altogether? Churches should be handling the spiritual aspects, and let a judge handle the legal aspects.

 

[mkgal1]

MkGal1, it's hard to fathom how you can believe as you do on this, considering some of your stances on other issues.

What stances are you referring to that are causing you to find it so unbelievable?

Do you care what God has revealed in the Bible?

Absolutely. However....I don't believe this is a topic we can debate here....so I'll leave it at that.

 

[tall73]

What stances are you referring to that are causing you to find it so unbelievable?


Absolutely. However....I don't believe this is a topic we can debate here....so I'll leave it at that.

Homosexuality? Then why did you post a video that includes statements about the blessing of same sex unions being joyful and fruit-bearing at All Saints for the last 16 years?

It includes the following quote:

"This also will call for more work. We are called to organize to defeat any ballot propositions that would seek to reverse the wise and just opinion of the California Supreme Court"

And goes on to say that such organizing to defeat ballot propositions to reverse the CA decision is the "work of their church"

The rule reads:

● Homosexuality may not be promoted* on Christian Forums. Homosexuality may only be discussed, without promotion, in our Congregation forums. Homosexuality may also be discussed in the Recovery and Ask a Chaplain forums solely for the purpose of seeking support with struggles overcoming same-sex attractions, and homosexual issues.
*Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.

You can post a video promoting, but not discuss the Scriptures involved?

I think I would agree discussion of this is not permitted here. However, I don't see how that allows you to post a video which promotes Homosexuality, but not discuss the Scriptures that discuss it.

 

[mkgal1]

I'll leave that up to the mods. I was merely responding to what EZoo had said.

 

[LinkH]

What did Jesus have to say on the subject of homosexuality?

If 'Raca' was an Aramaic word for 'homo' or something like that, like one translation of the Peshitta text indicates, then maybe he did mention it. Calling someone that would be considered a slander. But Jesus did endorse the Torah. But I was more interested in your beliefs about Jesus in general.

 

[DavidAReed]

Jesus did not directly name homosexuality in the quotes we have from him in the New Testament. But his apostles certainly reflect Jesus' teaching when they condemn the practice, as Paul did in Romans chapter 1, for example. And, Jesus' brother Jude wrote:

"Also remember the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and the other towns around them. In the same way they were full of sexual sin and people who desired sexual relations that God does not allow. They suffer the punishment of eternal fire, as an example for all to see." - Jude 1:7

David

 

[tall73]

It seems so far like the staff are tolerating topics on this in various sections, probably because it is such a water-shed moment. So I guess I will give my take for now.

Under the theocracy of Israel God imposed the death penalty for various things, including homosexuality, but also for such things as breaking the Sabbath.

We would not expect a modern secular government to do such. Paul, writing during the time of the emperor simply speaks of submitting to the government. As Americans we have some limited role in the government. To the degree that we have a role we should try to support the role that God assigns to government:

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

The role of the government is to uphold good and punish evil.

However, this is not a theocracy. While Christians may advocate for their view as anyone else can, the government still operates within various confines that are beyond control without a constitutional amendment, etc. which it does not look very likely. There is not support for it among the populace. From a secular society view there is no compelling reason to deny rights to these people.

Ultimately as Christians we may have to simply return to the advice that Paul gave while under an emperor. We do not have to agree with everything the government does. But we do have to submit when conscience allows.

As for judging, we are to judge those in the church, not those out of the church. Why would we expect those outside the church to live as we would?

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Within the church we are to judge, not only homosexuality, but liars, continual gossipers, those who are continually drunk, fornicators, adulterers, etc.

However, even within the church the primary purpose of this is to be redemptive.

Co 7:8 For even if I made you grieve with my letter, I do not regret it—though I did regret it, for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while.
2Co 7:9 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us.
2Co 7:10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

We are to try to restore:

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

As to public speech, we should stop, as Christians, advocating for our "rights". The early church did not win over the world by claiming their rights, but by suffering unjustly while loving those who spitefully used them.

We cannot hold back the gospel or preaching what Jesus has said.

Act 4:18 So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge,
Act 4:20 for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."

Speaking to a church in a hostile environment Peter said:

1Pe 2:12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.
1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,
1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.
1Pe 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
1Pe 2:16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
1Pe 2:17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.
1Pe 2:19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly.
1Pe 2:20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.
1Pe 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.
1Pe 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
1Pe 2:23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.
1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1Pe 3:13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good?
1Pe 3:14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,
1Pe 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
1Pe 3:16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.
1Pe 3:17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

 

[Hetta]

I'd like to see this much passion expressed over, oh, you know poverty .. child sex abuse .. the sex slave industry. But no. I have seen in the past few months, Christians stating that they will - divorce each other, kill themselves, set themselves on fire - if SSM becomes law. Why are they not setting themselves on fire metaphorically in their desire to help those in dire need?

But no. What consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is more important. SMH.

 

[tall73]

I'd like to see this much passion expressed over, oh, you know poverty .. child sex abuse .. the sex slave industry. But no. I have seen in the past few months, Christians stating that they will - divorce each other, kill themselves, set themselves on fire - if SSM becomes law. Why are they not setting themselves on fire metaphorically in their desire to help those in dire need?

But no. What consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is more important. SMH.

I imagine if the Supreme Court was considering striking down laws prohibiting sex slavery in our country you might hear some outrage as well.

 

[Hetta]

I imagine if the Supreme Court was considering striking down laws prohibiting sex slavery in our country you might hear some outrage as well.

So, you're telling me that because there is a law against sex slavery, it doesn't happen. Oh, okay. I believe you.

If that's the way that most Christians think, I am not surprised and will remain utterly unmoved by their invective against SSM.

 

[HannahT]

There's nothing hateful about upholding God's word. I've seen far more venom and hate coming from the LGBT community toward those of us who oppose it than those saying they don't agree with the lifestyle.

The LGBT community has been marginalized, and lied about since I can remember. I remember as a child people claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles too. They used that excuse to scare people away from them. They repeated it so often that even today I still hear people believing it. They knew it was lie, and said it anyway. Now people actually believe it they repeated it so often. There is no biblical justification for that. None.

That is not about upholding God's word. It's also not a competition about whom does it worse than the other. Where in God's word does it state that when someone is ugly to me I can be just as ugly back? You won't find it there. So, claiming that you see more venom coming from their direction? It doesn't work.

The delivery of God's word is just as important as the word itself. Do you seriously think God doesn't care about that aspect? I can't believe you feel that way.

I realize there are ugly character's on the other side of this issue, but pretend that church's side doesn't have anything to answer to in that department is naïve at best. Justifying bad behavior using the bible, and claiming you are doing to uphold is word is sin. Plain and simple!

The LGBT community has been accused of everything under the sun by so called Christians, and they have been blamed for all kinds of ills too. If you don't feel that is hateful...I don't know what to tell you. People state they are unbelievers, and as so they are not be to judged as believers...and yet they are. That also goes against the bible.

Christians can stand up for their beliefs that are based in scripture without acting and saying things like a reviler does. Hinting that God would pat you on the head and tell you its okay because someone used 'venom' towards you? Please.

It is possible to stand up for your beliefs, and not come across as some child throwing a tantrum. Many Christians are doing just that today, but sadly the ones that act ugly garner more income for the media outlets...so they use them.

 

[Matthias Rose]

Because there is such a strong, emotional response to this issue, many non-Christians conclude that conservative Christians are hypocrites, caring only about this one issue while -- if you are going to use scripture as a legal guide to behavior -- there are so many other matters that go unnoticed. Not to mention core teachings of Jesus that go unlived.

Of course, not all Christians are agreed on the point of SSM. There are many open and affirming Christian churches, from us old-school Episcopalians to evangelic emergent churches like Seattle's Eastlake Community Church. (For a discussion of the changing tide among evangelicals, this is a good article.)

My concern isn't that there is disagreement among Christians on this point; there will always be disagreements on pretty much every point there is. That seems to be a fact of human nature.

My concern is all the people who are driven away from Christianity and from the prospect of a relationship with God because they are under the misunderstanding that this vocal minority of Christians represent the mainstream.

And the fact is, I know that many conservative christians do care about more than this issue. I know these churches help their communities in many ways. I know that they pour out God's love on those in need. I know there is spiritual wisdom and nuanced spiritual teaching that takes place in the conservative church. I am sad to see this issue come to define the differences within the community of believers, when there are so many other disagreements that we can just agree to disagree on, and so many more issues that we hold in common.