To my brethren: Who is going to be the hero?

[Jim47]

I think there's already enough censorhip going on here. We need to be able to discuss beliefs and doctrines and surely this can be done without personal attacks. What I don't like is when legitimate objections to a particular religion's theology or teachings is expressed, that's interpeted as a personal attack or hatred or whatever and that is wrong.

While I don't like the mud slinging either, I agree with Lynn. If your skin isn't thick enough to handle this, then don't come here. We already have to many rules to abide by.

All it takes is enough integrity to to avoid taking part in it.

Some peole just don't seem to be able to witness without making insults, doesn't mean we all have to.

 

[Miss Shelby]

While I don't like the mud slinging either, I agree with Lynn. If your skin isn't thick enough to handle this, then don't come here. We already have to many rules to abide by.

All it takes is enough integrity to to avoid taking part in it.

Some peole just don't seem to be able to witness without making insults, doesn't mean we all have to.

There already is a rule in place that should cover the insults. It's called no flaming. Are you suggesting people develop a thick skin so they can deal with that type of behavior? (with ignorance which is rudely put across) I don't think so.

What I suggest is that people learn how to communicate effectively, intelligently, and employ a little bit of tact in how they come across. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea if people were informed and educated just a little bit about things they like to talk about as well. That always helps.

Michelle

 

[PraiseToHim]

Yes as I said, All sides have been guilty the same kinds of deeds in the past. It does not serve any useful dig up the past sins of one side when the others have been guilty of the same type of things.



Can the Moderators institute (or is there already) a rule to put a hault to this type of thread who's only purpose is to villify another denomination?

I second that.



DIANE

I agree.

Moderators, is there a way to put a hault to threads who's only purpose is to villify another denomination?

 

[Jim47]

There already is a rule in place that should cover the insults. It's called no flaming. Are you suggesting people develop a thick skin so they can deal with that type of behavior? (with ignorance which is rudely put across) I don't think so.

Michelle

I believe that is a necessary tool, Yes. Is it right ? No! But this is life on the forums, and these people who so liberaly throw out insults don't have to stand in front of you. They hide in ignorance behind a computor screen, and believe that they can utter anything they want to.

If you want the chance to witness to these people, then a thick skin is needed. If you retaliate you just add fuel to their fire.

 

[thereselittleflower]

That's all fine and dandy. I am not one to compromise the ancient truth of Catholic Christianity for the relatively new age Protestant version of it, over my dead body would I do that. However, the point of the OP is that very rarely in this forum is the bickering over anything substantial. It's all very needless and trivial, and involves finger pointing and mudslinging, and very little else. There is no real communication that goes on this stink hole of a forum, it's just a bunch of want to be hap-hazzard ' theologians 'giving free reign to their pride and being a poor example for Christ while they're at it. For the most part.

Michelle

I agree. . . . If people would back up thier negative statements and accusations against the faith of others with objective evidence, then a lot of this would stop IMHO . . .

What happens most of the time right now is that people post inflammatory, negative statements against another's faith and never post any objective evidence to back it up . . .

This makes the person posing such accusations the perosnal source of such "information" and thus to defend against such attacks, one is placed in the position of defending against someone's personal comments and accusations and as such, find themselves in the situation of directly opposing another's presonal position only instead of evidence, which creates a very disruptive, inflammatory situation. . .

When evidence is presented then the evidence can be dealt with, examined, tested to see if it really does what the one presenting it claims it does . . . this would help to DIFUSE the otherwise inflammatory nature of many posts here in GT, and we could get on with discussing the ISSUES rather than PRESONAL positions. . .


But when all we are presented with are personal accusations against our faith, what else do we have to deal with but with the person and their personal position?

IMHO, this is ENTIRELY the fault of those posting such accusations and making them entirely based on their personal opinoin without any OBJECTIVE evidence being presented to back it up . . .


It is the habitual practice of some here in GT to only present their personal position and never backing it up with any kind of evidence, let alone OBJECTIVE evidence, forcing either those who belong to the faith being attacked to either

1. deal with the PEROSNAL opinion of the one making the attack, which makes one's reply personal by the very nature of the attack and thus such attacks are actually baiting one into possibly breaking the rules of CF . . . . OR . . .
2. defend against the attack by proving it wrong with evidence

This makes such attacks logically invalid according to the rules of logic which govern debate. Logically invalid arguments are disruptive to productive discussion and debate (which is why GT is here to have productive discussion and debate, not logically invalid and destructive discussion and debate)

One of the reasons these are logically invalid is that they attempt to shift the burden of proof off of the one making the attack . . . . The burden of proof does not belong with the ones being attacked, but with the one attacking . ..

But because some members here post their attacks without presenting any objective evidence to back them up, their attacks are highly inflammatory in nature and very disruptive to the peace and harmony of this forum . . .



It is very, very interesting that most of this is "one way", not all of it, but most of it . . most of this is started when some members here are attacking the Catholic faith with their personal attacks devoid of any objective evidence to back them up. . . .


Unless this stops, unless these attacks are backed up with OBJECTIVE evidence rather than being personal in nature, this cycle will not stop . . . . .



This is the key to breaking the cycle IMHO . . . that all accusations against another's faith be backed up with objective evidence or simply not made at all.



Peace to all

 

[higgs2]

Diane . . .let me ask you a question . .


What should Catholics do when some members repeatedly start threads with the express purpose of attacking the Catholic faith by grossly misrepresnting the facts?


Just ignore it and join hands with others who do not do so and sing Kumbiya?


If we did there would be no end to such attacks for there are enough anti-Catholic members here who feed each other with their anti-Catholic rhetoric.


Yes, all Christian faiths groups have blood on their hands . . . He who is without sin cast the first stone . .


But what do you do when people are constantly stoning your faith?

Are we to sit idly by, ignoring it so that others can be deceived by the gross misinformation designed to inflame people against the Catholic faith, and thys develop a wrong understanding of the facts of history?

This is the purpose of such anti-Catholic threads presented here recently which grossly distort the truth.


Are we to sit by and let this happen uncontested?


What do you see the solution as being?



Peace to all

Report them if they break serms of service, refute them if they are sincere about discussion, and roll your eyes and say "fiddle dee dee" if they are crazy wingnuts. And yes, sing kumbahya in all cases. It is always appropriate to sing.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Yes as I said, All sides have been guilty the same kinds of deeds in the past. It does not serve any useful dig up the past sins of one side when the others have been guilty of the same type of things.

Can the Moderators institute (or is there already) a rule to put a hault to this type of thread who's only purpose is to villify another denomination?

I second that.

DIANE

I agree.

Moderators, is there a way to put a hault to threads who's only purpose is to villify another denomination?

You've got my vote. Anybody have an Idea of how we can accomplish this?

Peace be with you.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[CaDan]

The differences between Catholics and Protestants are a matter of fundamental truths not just semantics. Using the same words but giving them diffeent meanings doesn't quailify as saying the same things. If being a hero means to have no backbone and be willing to compromise fundamental truth the I will not be a hero.

You are hereby sentenced to read Hans Kung's Justification.

If Karl Barth and the Council of Trent can be harmonized, there is still hope.

 

[CaDan]

Diane . . .let me ask you a question . .


What should Catholics do when some members repeatedly start threads with the express purpose of attacking the Catholic faith by grossly misrepresnting the facts?


Just ignore it and join hands with others who do not do so and sing Kumbiya?

Sounds like a good plan to me.

 

[Jebediah]

Diane . . .let me ask you a question . .


What should Catholics do when some members repeatedly start threads with the express purpose of attacking the Catholic faith by grossly misrepresnting the facts?


Just ignore it and join hands with others who do not do so and sing Kumbiya?


If we did there would be no end to such attacks for there are enough anti-Catholic members here who feed each other with their anti-Catholic rhetoric.


Yes, all Christian faiths groups have blood on their hands . . . He who is without sin cast the first stone . .


But what do you do when people are constantly stoning your faith?

Are we to sit idly by, ignoring it so that others can be deceived by the gross misinformation designed to inflame people against the Catholic faith, and thys develop a wrong understanding of the facts of history?

This is the purpose of such anti-Catholic threads presented here recently which grossly distort the truth.


Are we to sit by and let this happen uncontested?


What do you see the solution as being?



Peace to all

While I don't condone any of the aggression or attacks in here...I have to point out that the Catholics are just as guilty of attacking anything other than them. I see Catholics consistently implying that only they have the real church, real Christianity, and real truth. This is a constant attack. I have even seen Catholics claiming the entirety of Christian tradition other than their's to be heresy.

So lets keep things honest here...Catholics are not just defending themselves any more than Protestants or anyone else. There are no victims here except the people who are not with Christ that read our posts and see no essential difference between us and the world. Where we could show them the relationship we have with Christ, we show them sectarianism and the worst aspects of our religion's history. Is it anyone's fault but ours that they see nothing here they want a part of and go join the Wiccans? (I know, the Calvinists will say that they would turn away regardless...but let's avoid the temporal, causational arguments for a second and concentrate on us people and what we do)

What is more important...doctrinal differences or being a living witness for Christ?

 

[catlover]

I am not one to compromise the ancient truth of Catholic Christianity for the relatively new age Protestant version of it, over my dead body would I do that. However, the point of the OP is that very rarely in this forum is the bickering over anything substantial. It's all very needless and trivial, and involves finger pointing and mudslinging, and very little else. There is no real communication that goes on this stink hole of a forum, it's just a bunch of want to be hap-hazzard ' theologians 'giving free reign to their pride and being a poor example for Christ while they're at it. For the most part.

Michelle

Oh please, MICHELLE, what sort of response do you expect with that nasty post? "New Age" Protestant???

 

[Jebediah]

Oh please, MICHELLE, what sort of response do you expect with that nasty post? "New Age" Protestant???

Exactly my point. The implication of superiority and correctness is clearly there and clearly an attack.

 

[fwiwwl]

I agree. . . . If people would back up thier negative statements and accusations against the faith of others with objective evidence, then a lot of this would stop IMHO . . .

What happens most of the time right now is that people post inflammatory, negative statements against another's faith and never post any objective evidence to back it up . . .

This makes the person posing such accusations the perosnal source of such "information" and thus to defend against such attacks, one is placed in the position of defending against someone's personal comments and accusations and as such, find themselves in the situation of directly opposing another's presonal position only instead of evidence, which creates a very disruptive, inflammatory situation. . .

When evidence is presented then the evidence can be dealt with, examined, tested to see if it really does what the one presenting it claims it does . . . this would help to DIFUSE the otherwise inflammatory nature of many posts here in GT, and we could get on with discussing the ISSUES rather than PRESONAL positions. . .


But when all we are presented with are personal accusations against our faith, what else do we have to deal with but with the person and their personal position?

IMHO, this is ENTIRELY the fault of those posting such accusations and making them entirely based on their personal opinoin without any OBJECTIVE evidence being presented to back it up . . .


It is the habitual practice of some here in GT to only present their personal position and never backing it up with any kind of evidence, let alone OBJECTIVE evidence, forcing either those who belong to the faith being attacked to either

1. deal with the PEROSNAL opinion of the one making the attack, which makes one's reply personal by the very nature of the attack and thus such attacks are actually baiting one into possibly breaking the rules of CF . . . . OR . . .
2. defend against the attack by proving it wrong with evidence

This makes such attacks logically invalid according to the rules of logic which govern debate. Logically invalid arguments are disruptive to productive discussion and debate (which is why GT is here to have productive discussion and debate, not logically invalid and destructive discussion and debate)

One of the reasons these are logically invalid is that they attempt to shift the burden of proof off of the one making the attack . . . . The burden of proof does not belong with the ones being attacked, but with the one attacking . ..

But because some members here post their attacks without presenting any objective evidence to back them up, their attacks are highly inflammatory in nature and very disruptive to the peace and harmony of this forum . . .



It is very, very interesting that most of this is "one way", not all of it, but most of it . . most of this is started when some members here are attacking the Catholic faith with their personal attacks devoid of any objective evidence to back them up. . . .


Unless this stops, unless these attacks are backed up with OBJECTIVE evidence rather than being personal in nature, this cycle will not stop . . . . .



This is the key to breaking the cycle IMHO . . . that all accusations against another's faith be backed up with objective evidence or simply not made at all.



Peace to all

I totally understand you! It seems both sides have backed up their faith "with objective evidence" to no avail. I have been watching this for sometime and it seems like a no win situation.

A wonderful person once said:


"True, no serious harm has been done," she said, "nor has the peace of the community been disturbed, but there are some little ripples on the surface of your soul. We might compare it to the bruising of the downy texture of a little peach. To stand up for your own rights or to insist on justice being done is not necessarily a serious offence against your neighbor, it is true, but your own soul is the loser."

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sounds like a good plan to me.

I know that's your plan CaDan . . to ignore and sing Kumbayah

but what you don't realize is that I have been through this on other sites . . and when Catholics do as you are suggesting, it only gets worse, not better . .

So no . . it is not a good plan. . . . I am speaking from real life experience.



Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

While I don't condone any of the aggression or attacks in here...I have to point out that the Catholics are just as guilty of attacking anything other than them. I see Catholics consistently implying that only they have the real church, real Christianity, and real truth. This is a constant attack. I have even seen Catholics claiming the entirety of Christian tradition other than their's to be heresy.

No . . it is not a constant attack . . it is how we view the truth, and quite frankly, I find it extremely revealing that it is objectionable for Catholics to do so when the rules allow us to do so . .

The Orthodox make the same claim . . where is your objection to them doing so?

We believe there is such a thing as the Fullness of Truth. We believe it resides with the Catholic Church. We believe that truth resides with other Christian Churches and groups, but not in any one of them in its Fulness.

And it is obvious on its fact that it cannot reside in all of them in its FULNESS for they all disagree with each other on some point of the Truth.

So if you are feeling WHAT we believe about ourselves to somehow be an attack on you, then I think this is a personal issue you are having and it is unfair for you to lay it at our feet.

So lets keep things honest here...Catholics are not just defending themselves any more than Protestants or anyone else.

Oh yes we are . . . tell me . . when was the last time you saw a thread started "We are the only True Church" by the Catholics here?

Now look and see how many threads have been started in recent weeks by certain posters attacking the Catholic Faith.


we are human like anyone else and can only take so much unbalanced representation of the historical facts before someone feels compelled to present the rest of the story so a balanced picture is presented in GT.

There are no victims here except the people who are not with Christ that read our posts and see no essential difference between us and the world. Where we could show them the relationship we have with Christ, we show them sectarianism and the worst aspects of our religion's history.

As soon as the anti-Catholic threads stop there will be a great deal more peace here at GT . .

Unfortuantely, there are several, vocal membes here who do not believe Catholics are even Christian and want us out of the Christian only section of CF and relegated to the Unorthodox section . . .

This is what we are up against . ..

Is it anyone's fault but ours that they see nothing here they want a part of and go join the Wiccans? (I know, the Calvinists will say that they would turn away regardless...but let's avoid the temporal, causational arguments for a second and concentrate on us people and what we do)

That's a great idea . . but even you started your post with such an inflammatory accusation against us . . .

What is more important...doctrinal differences or being a living witness for Christ?

Doctrinal Truth is absoultey necessary for being a living witness for Christ.


Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

I totally understand you! It seems both sides have backed up their faith "with objective evidence" to no avail. I have been watching this for sometime and it seems like a no win situation.

A wonderful person once said:


"True, no serious harm has been done," she said, "nor has the peace of the community been disturbed, but there are some little ripples on the surface of your soul. We might compare it to the bruising of the downy texture of a little peach. To stand up for your own rights or to insist on justice being done is not necessarily a serious offence against your neighbor, it is true, but your own soul is the loser."

I think you misunderstood what I wrote . . I was saying the one's making inflammatory accusations against the Catholic Church are usually NOT backing up their claims with objective evidence. . .

It is not a matter of standing up for our own rights or insisting justice be done . . .


But standing up for the TRUTH.


That is not a personal issue.







Peace to all

 

[Diane_Windsor]

What should Catholics do when some members repeatedly start threads with the express purpose of attacking the Catholic faith by grossly misrepresnting the facts?

That depends. If it is a doctrinal issue then speak up. For example, when someone claims that the Vatican teaches that Mary ascended into Heaven then, by all means, correct it. If they persist in misrepresenting Vatican doctrine then don't dignify their posts with a response. Why cast your pearls to swine?

If it is a thread that delibrately tries to villify another denomination, group of people, etc. because of what its adherents or members did centuries ago to your group then ignore it. In general discussions of the persecutions, crusades, inquisitions, etc. are best left to the history forum.

But what do you do when people are constantly stoning your faith?

If the same poster persists in misrepresenting what you believe then follow the advice given in Proverbs:

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself."
Proverbs 26:4 (NIV)

To answer a fool back is to give him credibility. Why would you want to do that?

What do you see the solution as being?

In most cases the solution is turn the other cheek.

You've got my vote. Anybody have an Idea of how we can accomplish this?

Peace be with you.

Your brother in Christ.

I have already PMed a GT moderator about it. Perhaps others should do the same.

DIANE

 

[thereselittleflower]

That depends. If it is a doctrinal issue then speak up. For example, when someone claims that the Vatican teaches that Mary ascended into Heaven then, by all means, correct it. If they persist in misrepresenting Vatican doctrine then don't dignify their posts with a response. Why cast your pearls to swine?

Diane . . these types of posts and threads always are about doctrine, whether wrongly or rightly concieved, we are always accused of wrong doctrine.

And I completely understand your feelings of casting pearls before swine . . I have often felt this myself. Yet, I have seen what happens when one simply walks away . . it goes on unchecked.

There are many others who lurk who need to have both sides presented . . so now we find ourselves in a quandry . . do we walk away and leave those who need to have a balanced view left with a very slanted, unbalanced view of the Catholic faith?

Or do we stick it out for their sakes?

And believe me . . when I am involved in such threads, it is not primarily for the sakes of those I am engaged with . . but for those who will read and never post. . .

If it is a thread that delibrately tries to villify another denomination, group of people, etc. because of what its adherents or members did centuries ago to your group then ignore it. In general the persecutions, crusades, inquisitions, etc. are best left to the history forum.

No, I have found these cannot be ignore . .for to ignore them is to give them free reign to present as biased and unbalanced view of Catholicism as possible . . this is what those who attack our faith want . . they want us to ignore them so they can go on with their attacks unchallanged . .

Is it reasonable to expect that we should comply with their wishes?

I agree they should be relegated to the history forum . .. that would make it much better overall . .


Perhaps that is part of the solution to this problem in GT . .. for all threads regarding Churc history to be relegated to the History forum . . .

If the same poster persists in misrepresenting what you believe then follow the advice given in Proverbs:

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself."
Proverbs 26:4 (NIV)

You only gave half of the instructions in Proverbs 26 . . the other half is

Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he imagine himself to be wise.

​

To answer a fool back is to give him credibility. Why would you want to do that?

Only sometimes Diane . . other times it makes his lack of wisdom obvous and so error is exposed and the Truth can be seen.


There is a reason why both instructions are given . . . because it is appropriate to do both depending on the circumstances.

This makes it difficult for us to judge another as to when they should stop and be silent.

In most cases the solution is turn the other cheek.

Does turn the other check mean to be silent?

No .. it means to accept the strike given to you and not strike back . . it says nothing about not defending the truth . . just your person . .

So, when one makes an personal attack, you should not make a personal attack back . . . but you should still go on defending the truth and exposing error . .

I have already PMed a GT moderator about it. Perhaps others should do the same.

DIANE

I have talked to staff as well about this . . .






Peace to all

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Sister,

No . . it is not a constant attack . . it is how we view the truth, and quite frankly, I find it extremely revealing that it is objectionable for Catholics to do so when the rules allow us to do so . .

It is one thing to express what you perceive as the truth, but it is another when you write something like this:

"I am not one to compromise the ancient truth of Catholic Christianity for the relatively new age Protestant version of it, over my dead body would I do that."

Now admitidly the phrase "new age Protestant" can be interpreted in a couple of different ways, but when most Christians here see the term "new age" they immediately think of "cult". And we both know that the word "cult" has mostly negative conotations to it. The way that Michelle has it written now is impolite at best and disrespectful at worst.

She could have written: "I am not one to compromise the ancient truth of Catholic Christianity for Protestant version of it, over my dead body would I do that."

And still gotten her point across.

We believe there is such a thing as the Fullness of Truth. We believe it resides with the Catholic Church. We believe that truth resides with other Christian Churches and groups, but not in any one of them in its Fulness.

I think that a lot of passions would die down if we used more "I" statements here such as I believe, we believe, etc., etc. Good example of the "I" statements in the above paragraph.

Now look and see how many threads have been started in recent weeks by certain posters attacking the Catholic Faith.

1. Well, this is a theology forum where we are allowed to discuss and debate doctrines.

2. A lot of RCs have boycotted GT. Can't find the actual thread, but here is this thread: Is the boycott lifted? An RC even invited the Orthodox to join him.

3. If you go to a RC site then you will see the complete opposite.

Doctrinal Truth is absoultey necessary for being a living witness for Christ.

Agreed.

Happy New Year Everybody!

DIANE

 

[GraceInHim]

on GT it is hard for all to sing whatever that song TLF said.. some people on CF are defenders of thier faith, but these seem to be in only certain threads... I understand Diane, your point also.. but have do agree, even though we may disagree and some seem hateful on both sides.. which I do not see too often.. there is still love and/or support for all denominations.. and that I have seen more often and thank those who do so... just go to a prayer thread... there are all faiths supporting... some should do this on CF sometime... shows the true nature of Christians on CF

Happy New Year to All