This Is My Fireproof Thread

[I Art Laughing]

I can't remember all the details of the movie. Must have been 2009 when I saw it. As I recall, Caleb lost his wife's heart through his inappropriate content use, anger, disrespect, selfishness (his boat was more important than her parents health needs). He had the big "come to know Jesus" experience, realized his dirtbag ways, took off the poop-colored glasses he'd been viewing his wife through, realized he didn't want to lose his marriage, and proceeded to try to win his wife's heart back, and succeeded.

Could you be looking at the movie through some hurtful experience of your own and perhaps projecting too much into it?

BTW, I appreciated reading your apology to dreamer. Good role model!

I think this is my problem here. I have to look at this movie a certain way while the women here explain away every problem I have with the movie. There seems to be very little empathy coming from the gals here. Are you even trying to see the male perspective or are you just defending the female position 24/7. It seems like you are on the defensive no matter what. That leads to me wondering about motives.

From the movie:

Caleb Holt: Dr Keller?
Gavin Keller: Yes?
Caleb Holt: Caleb Holt. I need a word with you, please.
Gavin Keller: Look, it's really not a good time; I'm just about to make my rounds.
Caleb Holt: I think you need to make time. This is concerning Catherine, my wife.
Gavin Keller: All right. What can I do for you?
Caleb Holt: I know what you're doing. And I have no intention of stepping aside as you try to steal my wife's heart. I've made some mistakes, but I still love her. So just know that I am going after her too. And since I'm married to her, I'd say I've got a head start. By the way,
[closes his hand to form a fist]
Caleb Holt: thanks for helping me with my hand; my ring finger's feeling a whole lot better.

I don't care how you slice it, that is Caleb competing for the affections of his wife's heart. He is competing with the adulterous affair!

My question was this:

I would like to know what the women here did think about the scene between Caleb and the Doctor where it seemed that Caleb was competing with the object of his wife's adultery? Should a spouse compete with the adulterous thoughts, actions or relationships? Is this something YOU would do? Can you envision God having you compete in this manner? I would appreciate any insights.

So far, I haven't seen anything but dancing, dodging, and I dunno what your talking about? Really ladies? Would you give yourself even more to compete with your husbands adulterous thoughts and actions? Would you go to the other woman and suggest that you were going to "win your man" and that you had a head start? I am thinking that your lack of an answer, IS AN ANSWER.

 

[mkgal1]

I think this is my problem here. I have to look at this movie a certain way while the women here explain away every problem I have with the movie. There seems to be very little empathy coming from the gals here. Are you even trying to see the male perspective or are you just defending the female position 24/7. It seems like you are on the defensive no matter what. That leads to me wondering about you motives.

From the movie:

Caleb Holt: Dr Keller?
Gavin Keller: Yes?
Caleb Holt: Caleb Holt. I need a word with you, please.
Gavin Keller: Look, it's really not a good time; I'm just about to make my rounds.
Caleb Holt: I think you need to make time. This is concerning Catherine, my wife.
Gavin Keller: All right. What can I do for you?
Caleb Holt: I know what you're doing. And I have no intention of stepping aside as you try to steal my wife's heart. I've made some mistakes, but I still love her. So just know that I am going after her too. And since I'm married to her, I'd say I've got a head start. By the way,
[closes his hand to form a fist]
Caleb Holt: thanks for helping me with my hand; my ring finger's feeling a whole lot better.

I don't care how you slice it, that is Caleb competing for the affections of his wife's heart. He is competing with the adulterous affair!

My questions was this:

I would like to know what the women here did think about the scene between Caleb and the Doctor where it seemed that Caleb was competing with the object of his wife's adultery? Should a spouse compete with the adulterous thoughts, actions or relationships? Is this something YOU would do? Can you envision God having you compete in this manner? I would appreciate any insights.

So far, I haven't seen anything but dancing, dodging, and I dunno what your talking about? Really ladies? Would you give yourself even more to compete with your husbands adulterous thoughts and actions? Would you go to the other woman and suggest that you were going to win your man and that you had a head start? I am thinking that your lack of an answer, IS AN ANSWER.

Personally....that's something I struggle with understanding. God pursues us...even when we are far from Him....He doesn't demand our heart...He commands it...right? "It's His kindness that brings us to repentance." All throughout the Bible, it instructs us things like, "don't cast your pearls before swine"..... "warn a divisive man once... and then warn him a second time...after that, have nothign to do with him"...."let the unbeliever depart". It seems to me, since God doesn't violate a person's free will, neither should we....but, that doesn't completely relieve us of doing our best to be lovable---just that I don't think we ought to turn ourselves into a pretzel while doing it (or going against what God and our conscience tell us is right).

As far as the scene.......for some reason, I see it as acceptable for a husband to remind the possible affair (in this case, the doctor) that the wife is married...and that he (husband) plans on fighting for his marriage (not literally brawling....but, winning her heart again). How can a wife do that with inappropriate content? I don't see a possible parallel....she would be confronting her husband, and Caleb didn't confront his wife.

 

[JaneFW]

I think this is my problem here. I have to look at this movie a certain way while the women here explain away every problem I have with the movie. There seems to be very little empathy coming from the gals here. Are you even trying to see the male perspective or are you just defending the female position 24/7. It seems like you are on the defensive no matter what. That leads to me wondering about you motives.

Women look at it from a woman's perspective. Men look at it from a man's perspective. As for empathy - didn't you know that was a dirty word? It is according to some men on this forum.

From the movie:

Caleb Holt: Dr Keller?
Gavin Keller: Yes?
Caleb Holt: Caleb Holt. I need a word with you, please.
Gavin Keller: Look, it's really not a good time; I'm just about to make my rounds.
Caleb Holt: I think you need to make time. This is concerning Catherine, my wife.
Gavin Keller: All right. What can I do for you?
Caleb Holt: I know what you're doing. And I have no intention of stepping aside as you try to steal my wife's heart. I've made some mistakes, but I still love her. So just know that I am going after her too. And since I'm married to her, I'd say I've got a head start. By the way,
[closes his hand to form a fist]
Caleb Holt: thanks for helping me with my hand; my ring finger's feeling a whole lot better.

I don't care how you slice it, that is Caleb competing for the affections of his wife's heart. He is competing with the adulterous affair!

My questions was this:

I would like to know what the women here did think about the scene between Caleb and the Doctor where it seemed that Caleb was competing with the object of his wife's adultery? Should a spouse compete with the adulterous thoughts, actions or relationships? Is this something YOU would do? Can you envision God having you compete in this manner? I would appreciate any insights.

I disagree. I believe that Caleb was doing what any spouse would do. I have done the same thing myself. I warned off a woman a couple of years ago. I feel no shame about doing that. I would do it again.

So far, I haven't seen anything but dancing, dodging, and I dunno what your talking about? Really ladies? Would you give yourself even more to compete with your husbands adulterous thoughts and actions? Would you go to the other woman and suggest that you were going to win your man and that you had a head start? I am thinking that your lack of an answer, IS AN ANSWER.

I answered this above already. You don't understand because you're not on the receiving end of this behavior from your spouse. What kind of spouse just immediately gives up on their spouse and says "okay, you can have him/her?" Oh, and I answered at length in my post. Are you even reading this thread?

As for dancing and dodging - I find that quite offensive. People are answering your questions. It seems to me that if you guys don't hear exactly what you want to hear, you accuse the person posting of avoiding the question. That's not happening. What is happening is that you don't accept the answer, and that's just tough.

 

[Psalm63]

Good role model!

Cancel that!

 

[I Art Laughing]

Women look at it from a woman's perspective. Men look at it from a man's perspective. As for empathy - didn't you know that was a dirty word? It is according to some men on this forum.


I disagree. I believe that Caleb was doing what any spouse would do. I have done the same thing myself. I warned off a woman a couple of years ago. I feel no shame about doing that. I would do it again.


I answered this above already. You don't understand because you're not on the receiving end of this behavior from your spouse. What kind of spouse just immediately gives up on their spouse and says "okay, you can have him/her?" Oh, and I answered at length in my post. Are you even reading this thread?

As for dancing and dodging - I find that quite offensive. People are answering your questions. It seems to me that if you guys don't hear exactly what you want to hear, you accuse the person posting of avoiding the question. That's not happening. What is happening is that you don't accept the answer, and that's just tough.

I disagree with you. I believe that you are maintaining a double standard that you are blind to. I find your approach offensive and I guess we'll just have to leave it at that. I read your answer and it had several maximalist positions wherein you just dug deeper.

Do you really want to know why I thought "Fireproof" was a bad movie? Or do you just want to wash my opinion off the thread? I'm not suggesting that you have to agree with me, I am suggesting that you have an open mind.

 

[I Art Laughing]

Cancel that!

Okay, am I here for your approval? Do I get an opinion? What are you expecting in the way of discourse here?

 

[I Art Laughing]

Personally....that's something I struggle with understanding. God pursues us...even when we are far from Him....He doesn't demand our heart...He commands it...right? "It's His kindness that brings us to repentance." All throughout the Bible, it instructs us things like, "don't cast your pearls before swine"..... "warn a divisive man once... and then warn him a second time...after that, have nothign to do with him"...."let the unbeliever depart". It seems to me, since God doesn't violate a person's free will, neither should we....but, that doesn't completely relieve us of doing our best to be lovable---just that I don't think we ought to turn ourselves into a pretzel while doing it (or going against what God and our conscience tell us is right).

As far as the scene.......for some reason, I see it as acceptable for a husband to remind the possible affair (in this case, the doctor) that the wife is married...and that he (husband) plans on fighting for his marriage (not literally brawling....but, winning her heart again). How can a wife do that with inappropriate content? I don't see a possible parallel....she would be confronting her husband, and Caleb didn't confront his wife.

I don't think he was competing with the Doctor for his wife by waving his fist under his nose. I think he was competing by buying his MIL a hospital bed and cleaning the house, and all the other things that he was selflessly doing. I don't have a problem with the selflessness at all, in any way shape or form. You could compete with inappropriate content, or food, or alcohol, or drugs the same way, selfless submission of your dreams and ambitions to show love to your spouse. I just think if it is competing that it isn't love seeking not its own.

I am supposed to show love to my spouse not because of what she may become, or because it will make her a better spouse, or that it will make our marriage better. Those are possible outcomes of love, but love isn't love if those expectations are attached. I love my spouse because she is bought by the Blood of Christ and because of that she is worthy of love. Anything else isn't love.

 

[JaneFW]

I disagree with you. I believe that you are maintaining a double standard that you are blind to. I find your approach offensive and I guess we'll just have to leave it at that. I read your answer and it had several maximalist positions wherein you just dug deeper.

Which answer? This answer:

One of the things that I think causes confusion with those whose spouses are using inappropriate content is when others - including other Christians - who don't understand the whole addiction process tend to think (and talk) in terms of blame. So, it is has been the case quite often on this forum that a person will place blame on, for instance, the wife and assume that she is not meeting the sexual needs of her spouse, or she is unattractive to her spouse because she is overweight or does not dress sexy or wear make-up or do her hair nice - and this is why her husband looks at inappropriate content. Truly, these things have been said right here on this forum. When a woman has uncovered her husband's inappropriate content use, she is vulnerable and can be easily persuaded that she has "failed" and that she hasn't tried hard enough, or doesn't look good enough/slim enough etc., and in that early phase, she may well knock herself out trying to be everything that her husband is pursuing in inappropriate content. However, this is never going to work. For one thing, no normal, regular person can be a character depicted in any kind of fantasy - whether it's inappropriate content, or a novel, or a movie. And that's pretty obvious to me now, and should have been right away because I know the difference between fantasy and reality but, duh, oh well. At that first shock, though, I can well understand any spouse wanting to fill the perceived gap by being their spouse's "fantasy". But .. it's not possible. And .. who wants to be a person in a inappropriate content movie? I mean, by definition, that is an immoral person who is having sex with multiple strangers. That's not love - it's prostitution. Why would any married, Christian woman want to be a prostitute? (Let's not get into the subject of why women become prostitutes please.) I sure don't. I don't want to have sex with multiple partners and otherwise debase myself so that my husband can get his jollies, and I absolutely wouldn't, so that's out of the question anyway.

I have heard of people who do go this route. Men and women. To keep a debased partner, they lower to that level. Ugh. If a spouse demanded that of me, I would leave, and in fact I left a marriage very like that. At that point, I don't believe that that is love. I think it's unhealthy obsession.

If so, that's the last time I will ever answer you, because I answered it from a place where I have been there and experienced this, and you have not, and for you to dismiss an honest, open response, well that just tells me I am casting pearls before swine, and I simply won't waste my time any further.

 

[JaneFW]

Why am I so stupid to be honest and answer people's questions. What a waste of time.

 

[Psalm63]

Unless men agree with you they aren't good role models. Check.

The very first post I ever addressed to you, your response judges me as "always defensive" and makes sweeping generalizations and disrespectful judgments about my gender.

Nothing to do with "agreement" or "disagreement". Everything to do with a disrespectful attitude.

 

[Psalm63]

Why am I so stupid to be honest and answer people's questions. What a waste of time.

Agreed!

(and shame on me for being manipulated by a nice sounding apology!)

 

[mkgal1]

I don't think he was competing with the Doctor for his wife by waving his fist under his nose. I think he was competing by buying his MIL a hospital bed and cleaning the house, and all the other things that he was selflessly doing. I don't have a problem with the selflessness at all, in any way shape or form. You could compete with inappropriate content, or food, or alcohol, or drugs the same way, selfless submission of your dreams and ambitions to show love to your spouse. I just think if it is competing that it isn't love seeking not its own.

I agree.....Caleb meeting with the doctor, and basically telling him that he's not going to just "take Caleb's wife"........that Caleb hadn't given up on the marriage, IOW, could have been seen as a call for the doctor to respect the marriage...but, I don't see that as "competing with him".

I don't understand the part I bolded. IME...and based on the experience of others....that doesn't work. I don't know anyone that has woo'd a spouse away from alchohol (for instance) by showing MORE love to their spouse. IOW..."love them out of it". Do you?

 

[I Art Laughing]

Why am I so stupid to be honest and answer people's questions. What a waste of time.

The simple answer was "no you wouldn't". The extended answer was riddled with why that wasn't what was going on in the movie and that I am not seeing it from the right perspective.

Translation: I agree with you, but I am still right and you are still wrong.

 

[I Art Laughing]

I agree.....Caleb meeting with the doctor, and basically telling him that he's not going to just "take Caleb's wife"........that Caleb hadn't given up on the marriage, IOW, could have been seen as a call for the doctor to respect the marriage...but, I don't see that as "competing with him".

I don't understand the part I bolded. IME...and based on the experience of others....that doesn't work. I don't know anyone that has woo'd a spouse away from alchohol (for instance) by showing MORE love to their spouse. IOW..."love them out of it". Do you?

No, but that isn't the point of love is it? But I think that was the point the movie was trying to make. It set the husband in the role of competing for the affections of his wife (affections that he should not have had to compete for). That type of thing could put ALL of his motives into question. You gave up your boat because you want to have sex with me. You did x to get y. Not, you did x because you love me unconditionally.

 

[JaneFW]

The simple answer was "no you wouldn't". The extended answer was riddled with why that wasn't what was going on in the movie and that I am not seeing it from the right perspective.

Translation: I agree with you, but I am still right and you are still wrong.

My answer is MY answer. My answer is required to be an honest answer that I truly believe in and that is drawn from my own life experience. It is not required to fit into YOUR parameters of what an answer should look like or what form it should take or what it should contain. If you want an answer like that, you would be best off just talking to yourself.

Do you really believe that you are right and I am wrong? I find that incredibly sad for you. It indicates a closed mind. A closed mind isn't actually searching for answers, but only for agreement.

Bottom line - I am right to give the answers that are honest and realistic and that are appropriate to what I beleive is right in the eyes of God. I would be wrong to lie just to please someone or be "right" in his (or her) eyes.

 

[I Art Laughing]

The very first post I ever addressed to you, your response judges me as "always defensive" and makes sweeping generalizations and disrespectful judgments about my gender.

Nothing to do with "agreement" or "disagreement". Everything to do with a disrespectful attitude.

Do you understand that I am slightly frustrated by the "atmosphere" here? You suggested that I was seeing this movie through a prior hurt, that my view of it was askance. Your comment was not made in a vacuum, look at the other posters that you are in agreement with here, see a trend? Just pages back you were making broad brushed statements about people being "discipled in bullying", is bullying a male only trait? Where you referring to your clique or someone else's?

I never got the impression that you were holding valid my opinion in your answer. You dismissed it. Isn't that disrespectful?

 

[mkgal1]

No, but that isn't the point of love is it? But I think that was the point the movie was trying to make. It set the husband in the role of competing for the affections of his wife (affections that he should not have had to compete for). That type of thing could put ALL of his motives into question. You gave up your boat because you want to have sex with me. You did x to get y. Not, you did x because you love me unconditionally.

Ummm.....yes, I do think it *is* the point of love---to want one to be out of destructive habits...destructive to the individual AND the marriage. I do think that's a great description of what love is. You seem to think there's another point....what do *you* believe the point is?

If a husband and wife aren't "connected" ....there is going to be something that "has her heart". So....if he "lost" her heart.....there will have to be some sort of effort to gain it back.

I'm not a fan of the trading of favors type of dynamic. I believe many people know sincere devotion as compared to efforts made that are selfish ambition.

 

[mkgal1]

Not, you did x because you love me unconditionally.

People don't normally give something up until they have something else to replace it. This marriage was broken....it didn't get there overnight (as most marriages don't). Caleb didn't "demand" that his wife give up her relationship with the doctor...and Caleb's wife didn't *demand* that the inappropriate content use stop. Personally....I think that's a good thing. External demands do not cause heart changes. They need to be intrinsically driven.

 

[I Art Laughing]

My answer is MY answer. My answer is required to be an honest answer that I truly believe in and that is drawn from my own life experience. It is not required to fit into YOUR parameters of what an answer should look like or what form it should take or what it should contain. If you want an answer like that, you would be best off just talking to yourself.

Do you really believe that you are right and I am wrong? I find that incredibly sad for you. It indicates a closed mind. A closed mind isn't actually searching for answers, but only for agreement.

Bottom line - I am right to give the answers that are honest and realistic and that are appropriate to what I beleive is right in the eyes of God. I would be wrong to lie just to please someone or be "right" in his (or her) eyes.

Your bottom line is absolutely correct.

Here is the crux of it as I see it. This thread is about the movie "Fireproof". I think the movie is trash and have stated many reasons why I believe that is the case, that is what I joined the thread to do. I feel that my reasons have not been logically or Scripturally refuted. I have seen little effort on the part of proponents to do so. What I have repeatedly seen is opinion dressed in personal experience, obfuscation, sophistry, and logical fallacies by many parties (not necessarily you JaneFW). What I haven't seen is anything that has changed my mind or convinced me that the movie has value when shown to married couples. I feel that it is a man-bashing movie and have stated my reasons why. I have cited examples wherein ladies could see this movie as many men do (such as myself). So far I have seen many double standard approaches to my points which has served to irritate me. As a result I have been rude and inconsiderate in many of my posts. I have apologized to you personally and to dreamer1982 as well for being so inconsiderate.

Nothing has changed my mind, and it isn't because it is closed. I am going to leave off this thread and intend not to return. I have learned a great deal about myself in this discourse and I've learned quite a bit about others. I appreciate you and the time you have spent with me in this discussion JaneFW (my flesh tends to thrive on debate). I'll be thinking of and praying for the ladies on this thread and their marriages as I already have over the last several days.

I really don't see anything positive out of continuing in this stream and I hope to see you in other threads in the future.

 

[mkgal1]

In relating marriage to the church's relationship with Christ....intimacy seems to be the goal, and keeping out any obstacles to that intimacy is part of our covenant (forsaking others).

I found this on how God pursues us:

"Being God’s people is a repeated theme throughout both Testaments: “I will live among them and walk among them, and I will be their God and they will be my people” (e.g., Lev. 26:12; Jer. 32:38; Ezek. 37:27). The Christian story begins with creation in harmony, unity, and peace; it ends with a restored creation. Between these two bookends is the drama of redemption. The covenants are major dimensions (or acts) of this drama."

When we deviate from intimacy with God....He doesn't just stand at the door and wave "good-bye"....He continues to pursue us.