Theistic evolution and the nature of God

[Diamond7]

Nothing in human nutrition, medicine, physiology makes sense unless you look at it through the lens of evolution.

The problem is that this is the best we have and no one has anything any better.

 

[Aussie Pete]

People talk about natural selection, but what about the flip side of the coin: Selective Breeding?

Selective breeding, also known as artificial selection, is a human-directed process where individuals with desired traits are selectively bred to produce offspring with those traits. It is commonly used in agriculture, animal husbandry, and plant breeding to enhance desirable traits such as productivity, disease resistance, or specific physical characteristics.

In the Bible, specifically in the book of Genesis, there is a story involving Jacob and his father-in-law Laban, where Jacob uses selective breeding techniques to increase the number of spotted or speckled lambs in his flock.

According to the biblical account, Jacob's selective breeding efforts were successful, and he ended up with a significant number of speckled and spotted lambs in his flock. This enabled him to grow his own wealth and separate his flocks from Laban's.

Sure, and evolutionists conflate this directed process with undirected evolution. It's absurd, but that is the level of desperation that evolutionists go to in order to protect their flawed and failed theory.

 

[1SimpleMan]

Hi. I'm new here. Its great to see a plurality of thought on this site as I read through some of these poss.
Since this is a thread on theistic evolution and the nature of God I thought I would add some of my own philosophical thoughts to the discussion as it relates to the purpose of time in Genesis 1.
This is not a disavowing of or even an argument against the reality that evolution may be the ordained manner of development that God instituted, rather I will be elaborating on the biblical perspective of what God's word relays about God and us and how then we might view the Genesis 1 account.

First, I firmly believe that God has not done anything by accident and that his creations are not incidental but rather all aspects of his creation serve a designed purpose.

I believe Genesis describes a literal 6 days for several reasons, but I beg your patience as I lay out my reasoning in not one single thought but rather a series of connected ideas.

1. I believe creation (like Adam himself) was made mature and had all the appearances of age (evolutionary or not). That seems obvious but it is a weak argument in and of itself against the idea of theistic evolution and that days in Genesis 1 might represent some larger amount of the passing of time.

Thus, if we are going to debate scripture's intent or meaning of these days then let scripture be our guide on their purpose.

2. Scripture elsewhere and in many places infers that the entire point of time is the focus on God's steady and methodical self-revelation to his creation, so that at the appointed time Christ might come in context of multi-generational experiences and in witness to this self-revelation as the fullest expression of himself. Scripture further points out that this self-revelation is what was intended before the foundations of the world were laid and was indeed the mystery hidden since the foundation of the world. Scripture further emphasizes that everything that happened in the OT was done and recorded for our sake, so that in Christ we might finally understand. Christ himself teaches his disciples how the law and the prophets all pointed to him. This fact further also indicating that God did not intend that the OT people and NT people would be saved differently but rather all in Christ. (Gal 4:4, Eph 1:9, Rom 15:4, Gal 3:7-29, Heb 11:39-40, Eph 3:9-10, Matt 25:34, Luke 24:27, Matt 13:34, Heb 9:23-28, Is 40:21, Rev 13:8)

2a. How it applies to Genesis 1 - From a biblical perspective, this makes millions of years of an evolutionary timeline perspective of Genesis 1 (wherein mankind is not present) to be superfluous to the purpose of time itself (to reveal God to man). If one is even to argue that the science (or occurrence) of evolution over those previous millions of years could in some way display God’s glory from a Romans 1 perspective then again God could simply have made his creation mature in order to reveal such “glorious” things and it would not require millions of years for us to observe it. Its superfluous to His purpose since we weren’t there anyway – we can still study it now with no detrimental impact by him making creation mature/old. So I repeat, if evolution were to actually have occurred, it would represent millions of years wherein God is not recorded as revealing or pointing toward the pinnacle purpose of his creation and that of time itself. You have to argue (hopefully with scripture) something then about the nature of God, to explain the off-kilter balance of billions of years of silence and then millenia of purpose.
3. Additionally, any time we are reading Hebrew writing (particularly true in the Pentateuch) we must understand that repetition is a tool intended to focus the reader’s attention on important details. The first chapter is laying forth for us the idea that God is ordered, planned, and purposeful. We see contrasted against chaos and formlessness these ideas repeated 1st day, 2nd day, 3rd day, 4th, 5th, 6th, evening and morning, evening and morning, evening and morning…So too from scripture we know God had a purpose before he began and that he is not only creating the objects of that purpose but he is establishing the medium or environment in which his purpose will unfold – physical creation and time itself. The latter is often overlooked but this is critical to understanding the Bible as it records God’s self-revelation. Time is created as the environment or medium through which he chooses to reveal himself to the objects of his creation.

So, I believe Genesis 1 is literal and it is so, for a redemptive supporting purpose. It is setting the stage for his book that each new day God will reveal something more of himself than the day before; and indeed will reveal something more to us of our brokenness that we didn’t know the day before (or generation before).

4. To begin to bring my point to a close, this idea is concluded as we move into Genesis chapter 2 where the 7th day is introduced, that final day of REST. Of course, this day pictures for us rest, and throughout the bible in time, we see this theme develop from references to a day of rest, to a land of rest and ultimately pointing us to our complete rest in Christ and then our final rest in the new heavens and new earth. This new heaven and new earth is the conclusion of time as we know it (no more darkness - no more evening and morning). Time exists to serve God’s purposes and the end of the ages inaugurates the timelessness of eternity. Here in these verses we have the beginning and the end of the time established.

Finally, we see time not only as the tool of God’s self-revelation as we observe and learn from past generational growth in knowledge, understanding, and faith through a myriad of people, laws, circumstances, sins, temptations, and difficulties, but we also see time’s usefulness in unfolding in our life our own personal growth and sanctification as the Holy Spirit not only reveals more of God’s character to us but also more of our deep need.

Genesis 1 sets the stage that time is important to us, as his creation, in understanding Him, our brokenness, and his purpose. If His ways are truly high above our own this should not be hard to grasp. So, if we are integral to his purpose then having millions of years of evolution where God is not revealing himself and humanity is not present, it seems once again counter to his purpose when rather he can simply create a mature creation while simultaneously establishing the progression of time in 6 days as the environment for the flourishing of his self-revealing purpose.

 

[Job 33:6]

Hi. I'm new here. Its great to see a plurality of thought on this site as I read through some of these poss.
Since this is a thread on theistic evolution and the nature of God I thought I would add some of my own philosophical thoughts to the discussion as it relates to the purpose of time in Genesis 1.
This is not a disavowing of or even an argument against the reality that evolution may be the ordained manner of development that God instituted, rather I will be elaborating on the biblical perspective of what God's word relays about God and us and how then we might view the Genesis 1 account.

First, I firmly believe that God has not done anything by accident and that his creations are not incidental but rather all aspects of his creation serve a designed purpose.

I believe Genesis describes a literal 6 days for several reasons, but I beg your patience as I lay out my reasoning in not one single thought but rather a series of connected ideas.

1. I believe creation (like Adam himself) was made mature and had all the appearances of age (evolutionary or not). That seems obvious but it is a weak argument in and of itself against the idea of theistic evolution and that days in Genesis 1 might represent some larger amount of the passing of time.

Thus, if we are going to debate scripture's intent or meaning of these days then let scripture be our guide on their purpose.

2. Scripture elsewhere and in many places infers that the entire point of time is the focus on God's steady and methodical self-revelation to his creation, so that at the appointed time Christ might come in context of multi-generational experiences and in witness to this self-revelation as the fullest expression of himself. Scripture further points out that this self-revelation is what was intended before the foundations of the world were laid and was indeed the mystery hidden since the foundation of the world. Scripture further emphasizes that everything that happened in the OT was done and recorded for our sake, so that in Christ we might finally understand. Christ himself teaches his disciples how the law and the prophets all pointed to him. This fact further also indicating that God did not intend that the OT people and NT people would be saved differently but rather all in Christ. (Gal 4:4, Eph 1:9, Rom 15:4, Gal 3:7-29, Heb 11:39-40, Eph 3:9-10, Matt 25:34, Luke 24:27, Matt 13:34, Heb 9:23-28, Is 40:21, Rev 13:8)

2a. How it applies to Genesis 1 - From a biblical perspective, this makes millions of years of an evolutionary timeline perspective of Genesis 1 (wherein mankind is not present) to be superfluous to the purpose of time itself (to reveal God to man). If one is even to argue that the science (or occurrence) of evolution over those previous millions of years could in some way display God’s glory from a Romans 1 perspective then again God could simply have made his creation mature in order to reveal such “glorious” things and it would not require millions of years for us to observe it. Its superfluous to His purpose since we weren’t there anyway – we can still study it now with no detrimental impact by him making creation mature/old. So I repeat, if evolution were to actually have occurred, it would represent millions of years wherein God is not recorded as revealing or pointing toward the pinnacle purpose of his creation and that of time itself. You have to argue (hopefully with scripture) something then about the nature of God, to explain the off-kilter balance of billions of years of silence and then millenia of purpose.
3. Additionally, any time we are reading Hebrew writing (particularly true in the Pentateuch) we must understand that repetition is a tool intended to focus the reader’s attention on important details. The first chapter is laying forth for us the idea that God is ordered, planned, and purposeful. We see contrasted against chaos and formlessness these ideas repeated 1st day, 2nd day, 3rd day, 4th, 5th, 6th, evening and morning, evening and morning, evening and morning…So too from scripture we know God had a purpose before he began and that he is not only creating the objects of that purpose but he is establishing the medium or environment in which his purpose will unfold – physical creation and time itself. The latter is often overlooked but this is critical to understanding the Bible as it records God’s self-revelation. Time is created as the environment or medium through which he chooses to reveal himself to the objects of his creation.

So, I believe Genesis 1 is literal and it is so, for a redemptive supporting purpose. It is setting the stage for his book that each new day God will reveal something more of himself than the day before; and indeed will reveal something more to us of our brokenness that we didn’t know the day before (or generation before).

4. To begin to bring my point to a close, this idea is concluded as we move into Genesis chapter 2 where the 7th day is introduced, that final day of REST. Of course, this day pictures for us rest, and throughout the bible in time, we see this theme develop from references to a day of rest, to a land of rest and ultimately pointing us to our complete rest in Christ and then our final rest in the new heavens and new earth. This new heaven and new earth is the conclusion of time as we know it (no more darkness - no more evening and morning). Time exists to serve God’s purposes and the end of the ages inaugurates the timelessness of eternity. Here in these verses we have the beginning and the end of the time established.

Finally, we see time not only as the tool of God’s self-revelation as we observe and learn from past generational growth in knowledge, understanding, and faith through a myriad of people, laws, circumstances, sins, temptations, and difficulties, but we also see time’s usefulness in unfolding in our life our own personal growth and sanctification as the Holy Spirit not only reveals more of God’s character to us but also more of our deep need.

Genesis 1 sets the stage that time is important to us, as his creation, in understanding Him, our brokenness, and his purpose. If His ways are truly high above our own this should not be hard to grasp. So, if we are integral to his purpose then having millions of years of evolution where God is not revealing himself and humanity is not present, it seems once again counter to his purpose when rather he can simply create a mature creation while simultaneously establishing the progression of time in 6 days as the environment for the flourishing of his self-revealing purpose.

Have you considered how to address discordant hermeneutics of most theistic evolutionists? This response of yours doesn't appear to acknowledge the most common view of scripture that theistic evolutionists hold.

- the raqia

- leviathan

- death before the fall

 

[1SimpleMan]

This response of yours doesn't appear to acknowledge the most common view of scripture that theistic evolutionists hold.

Care to elaborate? Thanks

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Evolution flies in the face of the nature of God. We understand that God is gracious, merciful, defender of the helpless, loving, caring and vitally involved in life on earth. Evolution is impersonal, ruthless, random, uncaring and destroys the weak. If evolution is true, then everyone is simply a product of random combinations of mutations or whatever mechanism the evolutionist claims to be the case. Yet God holds this random collection of cells to account for its actions. This seems utterly unfair, if indeed we are evolved. One individual "evolves" into Osama Bin Laden while another "evolves" into Billy Graham. Who is right and who is wrong? With evolution, the concept of right and wrong is meaningless. Theistic evolution is the worst of both worlds. "In the beginning God" is just fine by me.

Poor arguments because it gives evolution a personality.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This might be a traditional belief, but it is not a biblical one. The Old Testament view of man exhibits sort of a dual-aspect anthropological monism, wherein man is a holistic unity of material and spiritual. Man is a soul (monism), he does not have one (dualism). God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul (being, creature).

remember, brother friend, scripture, revelations are progressive. Starts with monism of Gen 2:7 and progresses to tri something.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

An ape like creature was not made in the image of God. I , personally, have come to the conclusion that " man , made in the image of God", is a different creation than all the rest of the Hominins like the Neanderthal. I come to this conclusion because there is proof that both lived at the same time . Additionally, scripture tells us Cain , a son of God, was banished into the realm where the daughters of men dwelled, ( I don't believe angels mated with humans) anyway, purely my speculation since no one knows for sure.
Blessings.

What is the is proof that both lived at the same time?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

God is capable of Selective breeding, thus if he wanted to, he could do theistic evolution. I still don't see how anyone ruled out that his nature can rule out using guided evolution to do his thing. The only thing that is missing is the long peroids of time traditional evolution needs. Take thousands pieces of a puzzle in a large jar and shake it all you want. The pieces will not come together.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

God is all knowing, all inteligent. He can do creation or evolution anyway he pleases.

 

[The Barbarian]

The theory of evolution, as proposed by Charles Darwin and further developed by subsequent scientists, involves both random and non-random processes.

Yep. Key fact in systems is that a non-random process, coupled with a random process results in a non-random process. Let's take an example from evolution.

Suppose that about 50% of a population has allele A and 50% has allele a, neither of which is normally acted upon by selection. Suppose also that Hardy-Weinberg holds for this population WRT the two alleles and they have no affect on mating selection. Now, suppose that a virus is introduced to the population for which A offers good immunity, but a does not. What will happen to the mix of alleles in that population? Non-random process, even though the two alleles are randomly selected in mating.

 

[The Barbarian]

God is capable of Selective breeding, thus if he wanted to, he could do theistic evolution. I still don't see how anyone ruled out that his nature can rule out using guided evolution to do his thing. The only thing that is missing is the long peroids of time traditional evolution needs. Take thousands pieces of a puzzle in a large jar and shake it all you want. The pieces will not come together.

That was Darwin's great discovery. It's not random.

 

[The Barbarian]

God is all knowing, all inteligent. He can do creation or evolution anyway he pleases.

Yep. Interestingly, He chose the method that turns out to be far more efficient for complex problems than design would be. Engineers have realized this, and are now copying evolutionary processes to solve extremely complex problems.

They are called "genetic algorithms."

 

[Aussie Pete]

Poor arguments because it gives evolution a personality.

Evolutionists do that themselves. What else does "survival of the fittest" mean?

 

[The Barbarian]

Evolutionists do that themselves. What else does "survival of the fittest" mean?

It means that organisms with traits that make it more likely that, in the environment occupy, they will live long enough to reproduce, will tend to leave more offspring. Compare to the self-organizing nature of market economics. No one plans it. It just works.

 

[Diamond7]

Sure, and evolutionists conflate this directed process with undirected evolution.

There is natural selection and for lack of a better term artificial selection, also known as selective breeding. In the Forest Gump movie a lot of attention is paid to the feather being carried by the wind. This is natural selection when everything grows wild. Forrest Gump often reflects on the events of his life, and the feather serves as a reminder that life's journey is often influenced by unpredictable and uncontrollable forces.

Selective breeding is when man gets involved and they cultivate the plants and mate the animals. We see an example of this in the Bible. Speckled and Spotted Animals: Laban agreed to give Jacob all the speckled and spotted sheep and goats that were born as Jacob's wages. Laban did not know about selective breeding.

 

[Diamond7]

What else does "survival of the fittest" mean?

This was Darwin's contribution to Science. Natural selection is a process by which certain traits or characteristics become more or less common in a population over time due to their impact on an organism's ability to survive and reproduce in a specific environment. Creationists call this fine-tuning.

Darwin's Grandfather: Erasmus Darwin was a prominent English physician, natural philosopher, and poet who lived in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. In his work, he proposed evolutionary ideas and discussed the possibility of common descent among different species.

The genealogies in the Bible talk about common descent also. Even we are told that all life on earth has a common ancestor. According to this theory, all living organisms, from single-celled microorganisms to complex multicellular organisms, are believed to have descended from a single common ancestral population of primitive life forms. They call this the tree of life. Kabbalah and Hasidism believe the universe started off the size of a mustard seed.

Kabbalah and Hasidism​

We see here six periods of time that correspond to the 6 days in Genesis chapter one.

 

[Aussie Pete]

This question of who the sons of God were, has been settled. They were angels.

In order to understand the topic, you have to be familiar with the narrative of the mesopotamian apkallu and the watchers tradition.

The latest archaelogical finds confirm that Neanderthals were human.

 

[Aussie Pete]

This was Darwin's contribution to Science. Natural selection is a process by which certain traits or characteristics become more or less common in a population over time due to their impact on an organism's ability to survive and reproduce in a specific environment. Creationists call this fine-tuning.

Darwin's Grandfather: Erasmus Darwin was a prominent English physician, natural philosopher, and poet who lived in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. In his work, he proposed evolutionary ideas and discussed the possibility of common descent among different species.

The genealogies in the Bible talk about common descent also. Even we are told that all life on earth has a common ancestor. According to this theory, all living organisms, from single-celled microorganisms to complex multicellular organisms, are believed to have descended from a single common ancestral population of primitive life forms. They call this the tree of life. Kabbalah and Hasidism believe the universe started off the size of a mustard seed.

Kabbalah and Hasidism​

We see here six periods of time that correspond to the 6 days in Genesis chapter one.


View attachment 333906

Darwin was a great observer but came to entirely baseless and incorrect conclusions. God tells us what He did and when he did it. Trying to make scripture fit godless science is unnecessary and insulting to the One who created, formed and made all things simply by declaration.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The problem is that this is the best we have and no one has anything any better.

"In the beginning, God.............. There. That's better. In fact it is best.