Translating it in th4e pluperfect is incorrect. a mistranslation. That's why the Revised English Bible and the KJV, traditionally, do not have it in the pluperfect. Again, there are no tenses in Hebrew, period.
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Theisitic Evolution
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Well as it turns out - KJV does have Gen 2:8 as "had formed". The very thing you claim is "incorrect" and so does the Revised Standard - and NASB ==> Gen 2:8 as "had formed".
So then Gen 2:19 is consistently "had formed" in the NIV.
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Aman777 said: ↑
It was much more than Adam's Earth since his firmament, which God called Heaven, the first Heaven, was totally destroyed in the Flood.
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world (Grk-Kosmos) that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, perished: (Grk-utterly destroyed, totally)
The FIRST Universe is no more.
Notice that the word "world" in the context of this verse is speaking of the Heaven/Universe and NOT of the world of mankind.
We live today in the 2nd Universe, which will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
It is empirical (testable) evidence which will totally destroy the False ToE in the last days. Amen?
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days Scoffers, walking after their own lusts. 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
That is the position of many of the evolutionists on this board. They falsely teach that Humans evolved on planet Earth from the common ancestor of Apes.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, perished:
In order that evolutionists can WILLINGLY be IGNORANT of God's Truth, they must first be told the Truth that Adam's world was totally destroyed in the flood. That's why I'm on this board. Knowing that Adam was NEVER on our Planet exposes the incomplete Theory of Evolution as a made up false assumption of godless men.
I just did. Notice the blue letters above. Thanks for asking. God Bless you
It was much more than Adam's Earth since his firmament, which God called Heaven, the first Heaven, was totally destroyed in the Flood.
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world (Grk-Kosmos) that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, perished: (Grk-utterly destroyed, totally)
The FIRST Universe is no more.
Notice that the word "world" in the context of this verse is speaking of the Heaven/Universe and NOT of the world of mankind.
We live today in the 2nd Universe, which will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
It is empirical (testable) evidence which will totally destroy the False ToE in the last days. Amen?
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days Scoffers, walking after their own lusts. 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
That is the position of many of the evolutionists on this board. They falsely teach that Humans evolved on planet Earth from the common ancestor of Apes.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, perished:
In order that evolutionists can WILLINGLY be IGNORANT of God's Truth, they must first be told the Truth that Adam's world was totally destroyed in the flood. That's why I'm on this board. Knowing that Adam was NEVER on our Planet exposes the incomplete Theory of Evolution as a made up false assumption of godless men.
I just did. Notice the blue letters above. Thanks for asking. God Bless you
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stevevw
inquisitive
I cannot find any specific material on Samuel Driver and verse 2.19. But he does mention that the Revised Standard Bible uses the pluperfect and this bible is similar to the Revised English Bible. Also the Tyndale Bible which was one of the first to translate the Hebrew into English uses the pluperfect in Genesis 2.19.
I also posted 2 papers in which one specifically mentions a pluperfect is used in Genesis 2.19 and the other mentions pluperfects used in the Hebrew and give examples. The point is you originally said and emphasized that the Hebrew does not use a pluperfect. Here we see many examples where it states it does by experts in the field. So there seems to be ample support for the use of the pluperfect in the old testament and a decent amount for directly showing it is used for Genesis 2.19 despite your insistence that it doesn't. At the very least we would have to question whether you are right against this support irregardless of your insistence.
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your post, well, you didn't go real deep. You focused upon the word "perish" as if it only had one meaning..then you made the mistake of building a theology off of your mistake.
Lets look at perish and how it is biblically used:
All the information can be found here.
one rendering is
1.to destroy i. e. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to,
These can be broken further down to 2 subgroups
a. of persons; (a). properly
b. of things; to be blotted out, to vanish away
Then there is
2.to destroy i. e. to lose;
a. properly:
b. metaphorically,
Click on the link. Show me why Peter uses perish as utterly destroys. In fact the Thayer's Greek Lexicon associates 2 Peter 3:6 with the red above....and not utterly destroyed.
One commentary (scroll down to Gills)refutes what you have claimed... God threatened a general destruction, and which was brought by a flood, which overflowed the whole earth; for all the hills that were under the whole heaven were covered with it, and everything that had life in the dry land died, and every living substance was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground; see Genesis 6:11; and hence it follows, that hereby the then world perished; not as to the substance of it, whatever alteration there might be in its form and position; but as to the inhabitants of it; for all creatures, men and cattle, and the creeping things, and fowls of the heaven, were destroyed, excepting Noah and his wife, and his three sons and their wives, and the creatures that were with him in the ark;
So, I have to ask, why should I turn in the accepted meaning of "perish" for your meaning of "perish" ....when EVEY indicator I have clearly inform me you are wrong.
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↑
Aman777 said: ↑
It was much more than Adam's Earth since his firmament, which God called Heaven, the first Heaven, was totally destroyed in the Flood.
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world (Grk-Kosmos) that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, perished: (Grk-utterly destroyed, totally)
The FIRST Universe is no more.
Notice that the word "world" in the context of this verse is speaking of the Heaven/Universe and NOT of the world of mankind.
We live today in the 2nd Universe, which will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
It is empirical (testable) evidence which will totally destroy the False ToE in the last days. Amen?
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days Scoffers, walking after their own lusts. 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
That is the position of many of the evolutionists on this board. They falsely teach that Humans evolved on planet Earth from the common ancestor of Apes.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, perished:
In order that evolutionists can WILLINGLY be IGNORANT of God's Truth, they must first be told the Truth that Adam's world was totally destroyed in the flood. That's why I'm on this board. Knowing that Adam was NEVER on our Planet exposes the incomplete Theory of Evolution as a made up false assumption of godless men.
I just did. Notice the blue letters above. Thanks for asking. God Bless you
Click to expand...
your post, well, you didn't go real deep. You focused upon the word "perish" as if it only had one meaning..then you made the mistake of building a theology off of your mistake.
Lets look at perish and how it is biblically used:
All the information can be found here.
one rendering is
1.to destroy i. e. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to,
These can be broken further down to 2 subgroups
a. of persons; (a). properly
b. of things; to be blotted out, to vanish away
Then there is
2.to destroy i. e. to lose;
a. properly:
b. metaphorically,
Click on the link. Show me why Peter uses perish as utterly destroys. In fact the Thayer's Greek Lexicon associates 2 Peter 3:6 with the red above....and not utterly destroyed.
It's because of Hoghead who is currently hiding from me. When we discussed this verse, he insisted that it should be utterly instead of totally. So take your disagreement to him and see it that gets you anywhere. When I asked him how to get to Heaven, he disappeared.
***One commentary (scroll down to Gills)refutes what you have claimed... God threatened a general destruction, and which was brought by a flood, which overflowed the whole earth; for all the hills that were under the whole heaven were covered with it, and everything that had life in the dry land died, and every living substance was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground; see Genesis 6:11; and hence it follows, that hereby the then world perished; not as to the substance of it, whatever alteration there might be in its form and position; but as to the inhabitants of it; for all creatures, men and cattle, and the creeping things, and fowls of the heaven, were destroyed, excepting Noah and his wife, and his three sons and their wives, and the creatures that were with him in the ark;
So, I have to ask, why should I turn in the accepted meaning of "perish" for your meaning of "perish" ....when EVEY indicator I have clearly inform me you are wrong.
It's because their study of the Creation is from the ancient, superstitious, incorrect, views of men, who could NOT have known what is written in Genesis. God hid His Truth in the discoveries of Science and History in the last days of this Planet. Dan 12:4 NO study of ancient religious views can possibly reveal that God's Truth AGREES with every discovery of mankind.
IF you have the proper interpretation of Genesis, it is obvious that ONLY God could have told us the creation story in Genesis, including events at the end of the present 6th Day or period of work, which He is currently accomplishing, thousands of years ago. Amen?
Aman777 said: ↑
It was much more than Adam's Earth since his firmament, which God called Heaven, the first Heaven, was totally destroyed in the Flood.
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world (Grk-Kosmos) that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, perished: (Grk-utterly destroyed, totally)
The FIRST Universe is no more.
Notice that the word "world" in the context of this verse is speaking of the Heaven/Universe and NOT of the world of mankind.
We live today in the 2nd Universe, which will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
It is empirical (testable) evidence which will totally destroy the False ToE in the last days. Amen?
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days Scoffers, walking after their own lusts. 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
That is the position of many of the evolutionists on this board. They falsely teach that Humans evolved on planet Earth from the common ancestor of Apes.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, perished:
In order that evolutionists can WILLINGLY be IGNORANT of God's Truth, they must first be told the Truth that Adam's world was totally destroyed in the flood. That's why I'm on this board. Knowing that Adam was NEVER on our Planet exposes the incomplete Theory of Evolution as a made up false assumption of godless men.
I just did. Notice the blue letters above. Thanks for asking. God Bless you
Click to expand...
your post, well, you didn't go real deep. You focused upon the word "perish" as if it only had one meaning..then you made the mistake of building a theology off of your mistake.
Lets look at perish and how it is biblically used:
All the information can be found here.
one rendering is
1.to destroy i. e. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to,
These can be broken further down to 2 subgroups
a. of persons; (a). properly
b. of things; to be blotted out, to vanish away
Then there is
2.to destroy i. e. to lose;
a. properly:
b. metaphorically,
Click on the link. Show me why Peter uses perish as utterly destroys. In fact the Thayer's Greek Lexicon associates 2 Peter 3:6 with the red above....and not utterly destroyed.
It's because of Hoghead who is currently hiding from me. When we discussed this verse, he insisted that it should be utterly instead of totally. So take your disagreement to him and see it that gets you anywhere. When I asked him how to get to Heaven, he disappeared.
***One commentary (scroll down to Gills)refutes what you have claimed... God threatened a general destruction, and which was brought by a flood, which overflowed the whole earth; for all the hills that were under the whole heaven were covered with it, and everything that had life in the dry land died, and every living substance was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground; see Genesis 6:11; and hence it follows, that hereby the then world perished; not as to the substance of it, whatever alteration there might be in its form and position; but as to the inhabitants of it; for all creatures, men and cattle, and the creeping things, and fowls of the heaven, were destroyed, excepting Noah and his wife, and his three sons and their wives, and the creatures that were with him in the ark;
So, I have to ask, why should I turn in the accepted meaning of "perish" for your meaning of "perish" ....when EVEY indicator I have clearly inform me you are wrong.
It's because their study of the Creation is from the ancient, superstitious, incorrect, views of men, who could NOT have known what is written in Genesis. God hid His Truth in the discoveries of Science and History in the last days of this Planet. Dan 12:4 NO study of ancient religious views can possibly reveal that God's Truth AGREES with every discovery of mankind.
IF you have the proper interpretation of Genesis, it is obvious that ONLY God could have told us the creation story in Genesis, including events at the end of the present 6th Day or period of work, which He is currently accomplishing, thousands of years ago. Amen?
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You are wrong right out of the gate....the firmament/expanse isn't earth.
Proof:
Gen 1:7...God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. 9Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.10God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
The firmament/expanse was called heaven by God.....God then said let the waters below the heavens (firmament/expanse) be seperated and the dry land was called EARTH. The heavens were not destroyed by the flood but rather the surface of the earth was.
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Aman777 said: ↑
It was much more than Adam's Earth since his firmament, which God called Heaven, the first Heaven, was totally destroyed in the Flood.
The "expanse" is the firmament or solid boundary of Adam's world. The Hebrew word shows a solid boundary like metal beaten into shape. Today, we would call it a big hollow Biosphere which protected Adam's Earth from the water which totally surrounded it. The expanse is what separated the water from the water since it was placed in the middle of water. It's the solid boundary of Adam's doomed Earth.
*** 9Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.10God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
The firmament/expanse was called heaven by God.....God then said let the waters below the heavens (firmament/expanse) be seperated and the dry land was called EARTH. The heavens were not destroyed by the flood but rather the surface of the earth was.
God called the hollow firmament, Heaven, the first Heaven on the 2nd Day. When God gathered the water from under the firmament, it made a noise, which God called "Seas", which means a roaring. God put the water in the bottom of Adam's firmament, put dry ground on top of that and Adam's FLAT Earth was made inside the hollow firmament.
The first Heaven was totally destroyed in the Flood. ll Peter 3:6
The present 2nd Heaven will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
All Christians will be taken to the 3rd Heaven of ll Cor 12:2 where we will forever be with Jesus. Amen?
It was much more than Adam's Earth since his firmament, which God called Heaven, the first Heaven, was totally destroyed in the Flood.
The "expanse" is the firmament or solid boundary of Adam's world. The Hebrew word shows a solid boundary like metal beaten into shape. Today, we would call it a big hollow Biosphere which protected Adam's Earth from the water which totally surrounded it. The expanse is what separated the water from the water since it was placed in the middle of water. It's the solid boundary of Adam's doomed Earth.
*** 9Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.10God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
The firmament/expanse was called heaven by God.....God then said let the waters below the heavens (firmament/expanse) be seperated and the dry land was called EARTH. The heavens were not destroyed by the flood but rather the surface of the earth was.
God called the hollow firmament, Heaven, the first Heaven on the 2nd Day. When God gathered the water from under the firmament, it made a noise, which God called "Seas", which means a roaring. God put the water in the bottom of Adam's firmament, put dry ground on top of that and Adam's FLAT Earth was made inside the hollow firmament.
The first Heaven was totally destroyed in the Flood. ll Peter 3:6
The present 2nd Heaven will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
All Christians will be taken to the 3rd Heaven of ll Cor 12:2 where we will forever be with Jesus. Amen?
Upvote
0
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Aman777 said: ↑
It was much more than Adam's Earth since his firmament, which God called Heaven, the first Heaven, was totally destroyed in the Flood.
↑
You are wrong right out of the gate....the firmament/expanse isn't earth.
Proof:
Gen 1:7...God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
The "expanse" is the firmament or solid boundary of Adam's world. The Hebrew word shows a solid boundary like metal beaten into shape. Today, we would call it a big hollow Biosphere which protected Adam's Earth from the water which totally surrounded it. The expanse is what separated the water from the water since it was placed in the middle of water. It's the solid boundary of Adam's doomed Earth.
*** 9Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.10God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
The firmament/expanse was called heaven by God.....God then said let the waters below the heavens (firmament/expanse) be seperated and the dry land was called EARTH. The heavens were not destroyed by the flood but rather the surface of the earth was.
God called the hollow firmament, Heaven, the first Heaven on the 2nd Day. When God gathered the water from under the firmament, it made a noise, which God called "Seas", which means a roaring. God put the water in the bottom of Adam's firmament, put dry ground on top of that and Adam's FLAT Earth was made inside the hollow firmament.
The first Heaven was totally destroyed in the Flood. ll Peter 3:6
The present 2nd Heaven will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
All Christians will be taken to the 3rd Heaven of ll Cor 12:2 where we will forever be with Jesus. Amen?
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Not according to this:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
This is the same Earth that has always been. Humans evolved from the common ancestor of Apes on THE present Earth, the Scoffers/Evolutionists Falsely preach.
2Pet3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:6 Whereby the world that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
The only way to be "willingly ignorant" is to REJECT my Scriptural view which I've been telling everyone I could find for almost 20 years online. Thanks for listening. Remember that the above events in blue are FUTURE to 2016. The question for everyone is, Are you a Scoffer of the last days, or do you believe God? Amen?
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It depends, Bob, on which edition of the Bible you are looking at. My KJV, from the late 60's, does not have the pluperfect, and neither does the REB, 1989 edition. You simply cannot rely on translations for accuracy. For example, the Red Sea is a mistranslation of the Reed Sea. Many Bible translate 2 Sam. 21:19 as saying that Elhanan killed the brother of Goliath of Gath. That is inaccurate. There is no "brother of" in the original Hebrew. It simply appeared due to the translator's bias to squelch contradictions in Scripture. Jehovah is another mistranslation.
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Well as it turns out - KJV does have Gen 2:8 as "had formed". The very thing you claim is "incorrect" and so does the Revised Standard - and NASB ==> Gen 2:8 as "had formed".
So then Gen 2:19 is consistently "had formed" in the NIV.
KJV 1611 : Gen 2:8
"Ҧ And the LORD God planted a garden Eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."
KJV Gen 2:8
"8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."
New English Translation - NET -- Gen 2:8
8 The Lord God planted an orchard in the east, in Eden; and there he placed the man he had formed.
NASB - Gen 2:8
8 The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
KJV21
8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.
================= so then same word - same author, same chapter --
Gen 2:19-20 NIV – Heb: "yatsar" – “had formed”
19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
And the only "downside" to noticing this 'inconvenient detail' is that it removes one of the straws from the desperate effort to claim the Bible contradicts itself.
Last edited:
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Bob, I do not understand the reason for you recent post. I already told you that some Bibles do have the pluperfect, others not. I already informed you that the pluperfect translation is inaccurate. Incidentally, you do not have a 1611 edition of the KJV. I know it is popular, in some circles, to advertise they go with the KJV 1611. However, nobody today could read the KJV 1611, as the English language has changed that drastically. Therefore, persons toady are using much later editions of the KJV. It was upgraded several times, over the years, due to major changes in the English language.
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http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Genesis-Chapter-2/
Oddly enough, in this day and age someone will have it online in all of its archaic english and weird words. This particular site even includes a picture of the actual page. Doctorate, huh?
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
Oddly enough, in this day and age someone will have it online in all of its archaic english and weird words. This particular site even includes a picture of the actual page. Doctorate, huh?
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
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Hi HH,
Oh, I'm not really concerned with this discussion. I just happened to see your handle as a 'most recent post' and thought I'd mosey over and check it out. I read your last comment that it just isn't possible that bob has a 1611 copy of the KJV and that he wouldn't be able to read it anyway. I immediately slapped myself on the forehead and asked, "Does this guy really believe the things that he says?" So, I decided to pull up a copy of the 1611 with the actual picture of the written page which shows that not only can anyone have access to the 1611 KJV, but as you yourself have just proven, it can be read by people today.
You already know my worldview concerning the creation and quite frankly, new grammatical inventions, such as 'pluperfect' and 'present' and 'past' and 'future' tenses aren't really necessary for men to communicate with one another. Noah and Shem and Cain and Able and Adam and Eve were able to communicate with each other without such devices. Your argument, of course, is that there just isn't any way that the Scriptures could mean what we think them to mean because there was no 'pluperfect' tense. I agree that there wasn't such a thing, but I know that people communicated and that Adam, even though it wouldn't have been in the 'pluperfect' tense surely was able to communicate to God that Eve had already eaten of the apple.
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
Oh, I'm not really concerned with this discussion. I just happened to see your handle as a 'most recent post' and thought I'd mosey over and check it out. I read your last comment that it just isn't possible that bob has a 1611 copy of the KJV and that he wouldn't be able to read it anyway. I immediately slapped myself on the forehead and asked, "Does this guy really believe the things that he says?" So, I decided to pull up a copy of the 1611 with the actual picture of the written page which shows that not only can anyone have access to the 1611 KJV, but as you yourself have just proven, it can be read by people today.
You already know my worldview concerning the creation and quite frankly, new grammatical inventions, such as 'pluperfect' and 'present' and 'past' and 'future' tenses aren't really necessary for men to communicate with one another. Noah and Shem and Cain and Able and Adam and Eve were able to communicate with each other without such devices. Your argument, of course, is that there just isn't any way that the Scriptures could mean what we think them to mean because there was no 'pluperfect' tense. I agree that there wasn't such a thing, but I know that people communicated and that Adam, even though it wouldn't have been in the 'pluperfect' tense surely was able to communicate to God that Eve had already eaten of the apple.
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
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