The Works Based Salvation

[DingDing]

If Heaven was located way out in space somewhere.
Upon my death my good works would not even get me to the moon.

Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone

M-Bob

Sooo... where do passages like John 5:28-29 and Romans 2:5-10 fit? They (and a great many others) indicate that those who seek for eternal life must live accordingly.

 

[EmSw]

The fig tree that bared no fruit is a tree that didn't believe. They are false Christians. You can believe that you have believed without having believed. I mean, look at how many Christians are in the world today, yet Christ said only a few will enter. Many Christians play "religion" it seems, without actually believing.

In your view, what assurance does one have of salvation? If a person can believe they have believed without having believed, what assurance does one have of salvation? How does one tell if they genuinely believe?

Impossible. A good tree bares good fruit, Christ says so. Matthew 7:18

No, but your post was seemingly directed towards that person personally in a way.

Jesus said to either MAKE the tree good or MAKE it bad. The word 'make' has to do with performing, producing, acting, doing, and preparing. So I think making the tree good involves something we do, thus, genuinely believing.

 

[EmSw]

If Heaven was located way out in space somewhere.
Upon my death my good works would not even get me to the moon.

Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone

M-Bob

A universal belief. How is anyone kept from heaven?

 

[CodyFaith]

In your view, what assurance does one have of salvation? If a person can believe they have believed without having believed, what assurance does one have of salvation? How does one tell if they genuinely believe?

There are fruits one should see in their life to see if they have genuine faith or not. Fruits of the spirit, fruits of Christian love. 1 John 3:14 is a good example:
"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."

Other verses as well. It's up to us to judge whether we are in the faith or not and to prove to our own selves. But this is not a casual "oh I must be", you must prove it to yourself.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Jesus said to either MAKE the tree good or MAKE it bad. The word 'make' has to do with performing, producing, acting, doing, and preparing. So I think making the tree good involves something we do, thus, genuinely believing.

Not true, "making" simply means "make it so in your minds" - meaning, make up your mind whether the tree is good or bad, don't be lukewarm and say "oh well it's kind of good kinda of bad" because good trees cannot bear bad fruit and likewise bad trees cannot bear good fruit.
The verse in context had nothing to do with works...

 

[EmSw]

There are fruits one should see in their life to see if they have genuine faith or not. Fruits of the spirit, fruits of Christian love. 1 John 3:14 is a good example:
"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."

So one who only believes does not have life. Faith is not a fruit.

Other verses as well. It's up to us to judge whether we are in the faith or not and to prove to our own selves. But this is not a casual "oh I must be", you must prove it to yourself.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

So, again it is not faith only.

Not true, "making" simply means "make it so in your minds" - meaning, make up your mind whether the tree is good or bad, don't be lukewarm and say "oh well it's kind of good kinda of bad" because good trees cannot bear bad fruit and likewise bad trees cannot bear good fruit.
The verse in context had nothing to do with works...

I wouldn't put much trust in the 'New Testament for Everyone' version. It's not a literal translation. Strong's tells us what 'make' means. Jesus did not use the word 'mind'. Take a look at Strong's and tell us what 'make' actually means.

 

[CodyFaith]

So one who only believes does not have life. Faith is not a fruit.



So, again it is not faith only.

Not sure how you got that from what I said... fruits are evidence one has found salvation. Someone who has faith has fruits that follow.

I can't walk you throw it. From my experience, those on this forum and elsewhere who are dead-set on their own works achieving their salvation are hardly convinced by words, and even if you would be convinced, shall I spend many hours out of the day endlessly trying to convince you otherwise? I don't think I'm called to such a task, perhaps some are, not me though.

Hope you find the truth and come out of the works-for-salvation mindset.

Believe and be saved, Christ has paid it all. That is the gospel.

 

[EmSw]

Not sure how you got that from what I said... fruits are evidence one has found salvation. Someone who has faith has fruits that follow.

I can't walk you throw it. From my experience, those on this forum and elsewhere who are dead-set on their own works achieving their salvation are hardly convinced by words, and even if you would be convinced, shall I spend many hours out of the day endlessly trying to convince you otherwise? I don't think I'm called to such a task, perhaps some are, not me though.

Hope you find the truth and come out of the works-for-salvation mindset.

Believe and be saved, Christ has paid it all. That is the gospel.

I hope those who don't believe in good works for salvation come out of their evil works for salvation mentality. I wish someone could show us how one is saved by living in evil works.

 

[CodyFaith]

I hope those who don't believe in good works for salvation come out of their evil works for salvation mentality. I wish someone could show us how one is saved by living in evil works.

I don't live in evil works.

I preach the gospel, follow Christ's commands, seek his Kingdom daily, repent of sin, and above all, I love my Christian neighbors. Not that I boast in any of these works of course, but I am aware of their existence and am certainly not ashamed of them.

As 1 John says, those who love their neighbors have passed from death unto life. In the gospel of Christ says those who have passed from death unto life will not come into condemnation. John 5:24 1 John 3:14 Romans 8:1

 

[EmSw]

I don't live in evil works.

Thanks be to God you follow and obey Him.

I preach the gospel, follow Christ's commands, seek his Kingdom daily, repent of sin, and above all, I love my Christian neighbors. Not that I boast in any of these works of course, but I am aware of their existence and am certainly not ashamed of them.

I do not see this as boasting and would never accuse you of that. Keep doing what you have stated, and salvation is assured for you.

As 1 John says, those who love their neighbors have passed from death unto life. In the gospel of Christ says those who have passed from death unto life will not come into condemnation. John 5:24 1 John 3:14 Romans 8:1

It does say those who hear His word and believe, who love the brethren, and those who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh do come into condemnation and have passed from death unto life. We have many here who believe they can live after the flesh and not come into condemnation.

However, if you are honest and sincere about what you wrote, salvation is yours.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

After all that has been said in the above 17 posts, tell if you will, Just what are the requirements for salvation/eternal life? Just a list if you will, no explanations. Each of you give me your own list.

When Jesus was asked this question he stated that there was only ONE REQUIREMENT and that was that the Holy Spirit had to give one a new heart. He said this work performed by the Holy Spirit was like the wind -- common man has no control over the wind.

Do what you wish but, you will never work your way there.

M-Bob

 

[DingDing]

When Jesus was asked this question he stated that there was only ONE REQUIREMENT and that was that the Holy Spirit had to give one a new heart. He said this work performed by the Holy Spirit was like the wind -- common man has no control over the wind.

Do what you wish but, you will never work your way there.

M-Bob

Hello M-Bob,

You gave what could be called a standard calvinist response. But concerning the new birth, unlike physical birth, requires the active participation of the one desiring and seeking this spiritual birth.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Hello M-Bob,

You gave what could be called a standard calvinist response. But concerning the new birth, unlike physical birth, requires the active participation of the one desiring and seeking this spiritual birth.

Hi and you are correct.
The bible also says that we were dead in our transgressions. How can a dead man seek anything?

When Paul was blinded what was he seeking? Nothing good that's for sure.

Have a blessed day,
M-Bob

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Hello M-Bob,

You gave what could be called a standard calvinist response. But concerning the new birth, unlike physical birth, requires the active participation of the one desiring and seeking this spiritual birth.

Hi and you are correct.
The bible also says that we were dead in our transgressions. How can a dead man seek anything?

When Paul was blinded what was he seeking? Nothing good that's for sure.

Have a blessed day,
M-Bob

 

[DingDing]

Hi and you are correct.
The bible also says that we were dead in our transgressions. How can a dead man seek anything?

Hello,
You also hold to the standard calvinist understanding of "dead in sin". To be "dead in sin" does not mean to cease to exist spiritually, nor does it mean to be without spiritual capabilities (like seeking restoration with God). To be spiritually "dead in sin" is more like being locked in a prison cell. You can recognize your predicament, you can see outside the cell, you can long to be free, yet you have no power to free yourself, at least not by only your own power.

 

[SeventyOne]

This is not about justifying ourselves before men, and certainly not our target. Jesus told us about those who justify themselves before men.

Luke 16
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

If your target or goal is to be justified before men, then your justification is an abomination in the sight of God. In fact, this makes you a Pharisee.

You are mixing up two different concepts.

 

[EmSw]

You are mixing up two different concepts.

I'll go with Jesus on this. He said justifying yourself before men is an abomination to God. You say James is speaking of justifying ourselves before men. I don't think so.

 

[SeventyOne]

I'll go with Jesus on this. He said justifying yourself before men is an abomination to God. You say James is speaking of justifying ourselves before men. I don't think so.

Again, you are confusing two concepts. Just saying the same thing again doesn't change that fact.

Perhaps I should clarify it a bit. James is talking about proof of justification before men. that's why he says that if we claim to have faith, then show us your works. Like I said previously, the works are the fruit of faith. Jesus said a healthy tree bears good fruit. It's just what they do, they bear good fruit. James expands on that concept and asks if you say you have faith, then where is your fruit, and he gives examples of how these things manifest before other men, particularly in the giving of necessary items to our fellow believers.

God doesn't require such proof, as He knows already who He has justified and who He hasn't. These things are for our benefit so we can who is true and who is false.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

You miss the scope of the passage you are citing and it's right there around verses 18 and 19. The target is justification in the eyes of other men. We can tell who is justified based on their works, or if you want to get technical, by their fruit. James is proving the proposition in verse 14, stating that if a man has faith he will also have works. You even quoted the part about Abraham. We can see his faith by his works, but his justification before God was his belief (v23) not his actions, but his justification before men are his works, proving his faith.

I agree with this...And I would also add this, That Paul gives us the view of what Justification IS in the Sight of God from His Point of View.
-Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
-Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
-Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
-Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Verse 4:5 has to be one of the most amazing things that I have ever heard.
-Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
It isn't saying that he does not sin, but because he doesn't believe in his own righteousness, but believes, and has FAITH that he "IS" JUSTIFIED "BY" GOD, "BECAUSE OF" "THE RIGHTEOUS [OF] CHRIST"
-
-Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
-Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
-Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
-Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
-Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
-Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
-Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
-Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
-Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
-Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
-Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
-Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
-Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
-Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
-Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

[Mountainmanbob]

To be spiritually "dead in sin" is more like being locked in a prison cell. You can recognize your predicament, you can see outside the cell, you can long to be free, yet you have no power to free yourself, at least not by only your own power.

Romans -- There is no one who seeks God

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

When Jesus was asked this question he stated that there was only ONE REQUIREMENT and that was that the Holy Spirit had to give one a new heart. He said this work performed by the Holy Spirit was like the wind -- common man has no control over the wind.

Do what you wish but, you will never work your way there.

M-Bob

HelleluYah!- And these verses give the perfect confirmation of what you just said, Verse 27 being the key verse:
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Why any believer would despise the thought of this, shall forever be beyond me.