The wedding at Cana: Wine or grape juice?

[Bible Highlighter]

I thought wine was wine...

There is alot of things people assume that they know that is simply not true. Wine can be fermented or unfermented according to many dictionaries and even the Word of God.

For what are your thoughts on Isaiah 65:8? Did you do a study on it? If you did do a study on it, were you trying to prove alcohol with that study or were you being objective letting the text speak for itself?

 

[faroukfarouk]

There is alot of things people assume that they know that is simply not true. Wine can be fermented or unfermented according to many dicitionaries and even the Word of God.

But it's a big step to suggest (and I'm not sure if this is really what you're saying) that if ppl don't share your interpretation what what wine means in John 2, then they are in sin.

 

[Steve Petersen]

God explicitly ALLOWED the consumption of 'strong drink' in the OT.

Deut. 14:
22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.
23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away),
25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.
26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink,or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.

 

[Albion]

But it's a big step to suggest (and I'm not sure if this is really what you're saying) that if ppl don't share your interpretation what what wine means in John 2, then they are in sin.

...or that if they use the "other" wine, they're violating some Biblical directive.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is a big assumption.

Remember: most Christians in the world don't have Prohibition as part of their cultural past.

My wife and I prefer not to have wine in the house, actually.

But this is different from saying that eveyone who drinks wine is in sin, even despite the example of the Lord turning the water into wine at Cana.

Blessings.

I am not a Prohibitionist. I am an Abstentionist.

Please see my explanation here as to what those two positions mean.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God explicitly ALLOWED the consumption of 'strong drink' in the OT.

Deut. 14:
22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.
23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away),
25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.
26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink,or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.

This is talking about the purchase of wine and strong drink in it's concentrated form by which they would then dilute it with water so as to have drinkable wine and other fruit beverages that were very low in alcoholic content. They also used these beverages so as to help those who were in pain before they shortly died, too. The concentrated form of wine was not a social drink. For if you were to keep reading, the Israelites were forbidden in drinking strong drink and strong wine as mentioned within that same book.

Deuteronomy 29:6
"Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God."​

Why did they not drink strong drink or strong wine? The verse says that they may know that He is the LORD their GOD.

...

 

[faroukfarouk]

I am not a Prohibitionist. I am an Abstentionist.

Please see my explanation here as to what those two positions mean.


....

Well, I see, ty.

Prohibition caused a huge amount of problems, anyway: it created the mafia in Havana, and the whole Cuba mess,

It's what comes when single issue campaigners, in a peculiarly North American mindset, insist that even their cultural views on all sorts of things are the only right views and no one else should be 'allowed' to think differently.

(The Canadian approach to Prohibition was a joke. It would never work in Quebec and was never tried! In Ontario, it was implemented, but Ontarian factories could still manufacture it and sell it under license to 'Cuba' - i.e., it never reached Cuba and was sold and drunk in the US instead.)

 

[katerinah1947]

Also, if Jesus did make alcoholic wine, then he surely would have gotten them drunk (Which is a sin). For John chapter 2 essentially says or implies that the guests at the wedding were already "well drunk" because Jesus's wine was served last (Which was the best), instead of the best being normally served first.

Hi,

Wow, that is quite the distortion. "then he surely would have gotten them drunk". Other than inventing possibilities like Eric Von Daniken did with the widely disproven book" Was God an Astronaut?" how are you arriving at this almost certain incorrect position of 'all people who drink wine always get drunk' thus impuning your Lord and God?

I wonder what other groups share your position?

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Steve Petersen]

This is talking about the purchase of wine and strong drink in it's concentrated form by which they would then dilute it with water so as to have drinkable wine and other fruit beverages that were very low in alcoholic content. They also used these beverages so as to help those who were in pain before they shortly died, too. The concentrated form of wine was not a social drink. For if you were to keep reading, the Israelites were forbidden in drinking strong drink and strong wine as mentioned within that same book.

Deuteronomy 29:6
"Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God."​

Why did they not drink strong drink or strong wine? The verse says that they may know that He is the LORD their GOD.

...

You have taken this out of context. This was a reference to their time in the wilderness.

Deut 29:
2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land.
3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders.
4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet.
6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
A commentary. Not mine:

Although alcohol is by no means a central scriptural issue, the Bible alludes to its use. The problem emerged in Jewish experience after the conquest of Canaan. The land of Canaan flowed not only with milk and honey but with wine as well. The hills of Judea were ideal for vineyards, and so the Hebrews, whose nomadic past had shielded them, had to come to terms with alcohol as a part of ordinary life. In general, they regarded wine as a gift, and they praised God for it (Psalm 104:14-15), but saw excessive drinking as foolish (Proverbs 20:1).

It is fair to say that both total abstinence and moderate use were acceptable to Jesus. Following the parable of the children at play (Matthew 11:16-19, NRSV), Jesus added these words: "For John [the Baptist] came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon'; the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' " Clearly, Jesus intended the parable to show what he thought of debates about eating and drinking. They were petty and distracting. They drew attention from the real issues facing the nation.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi,

Wow, that is quite the distortion. "then he surely would have gotten them drunk". Other than inventing possibilities like Eric Von Daniken did with the widely disproven book" Was God an Astronaut?" how are you arriving at this almost certain incorrect position of 'all people who drink wine always get drunk' thus impuning your Lord and God?

I wonder what other groups share your position?

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

The Scriptures say they were already "well drunk" in John chapter 2. If Jesus gave them more wine, he would have certainly made them tipsy, drunk, or not sober minded by such a task. Also, Jesus promoting the public use of alcohol would have been a green light approval to every future drunk in human history who struggles to stop drinking, too. For their reasoning would be that if it is good enough for the guys at the wedding of Cana, then it is good enough for them. But such would be the deception for the alcoholic who would drink themselves into death and ruin. The Bible says... "Woe unto those who give their neighbor strong drink." Hmmm.... I wonder if that would include Jesus or not. For was Jesus in the habit of breaking God's Word or in being obedient to it?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have taken this out of context. This was a reference to their time in the wilderness.

Deut 29:
2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land.
3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders.
4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet.
6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

While this may be true, what lesson can be gained by their abstaining from it? What do you make of other verses that say that Wine is a Mocker and strong drink is raging? What do you make of wine being likened to a serpent that can bite you? Why all these warnings if alcohol was just some harmless little drink? Why does the Bible say we are not to look in the cup when the wine is red and moves itself aright? Do you think maybe because it is alcoholic or fermented perhaps?

...

 

[Steve Petersen]

While this may be true, what lesson can be gained by their abstaining from it? What do you make of other verses that say that Wine is a Mocker and strong drink is raging? What do you make of wine being likened to a serpent that can bite you? Why all these warnings if alcohol was just some harmless little drink? Why does the Bible say we are not to look in the cup when the wine is red and moves itself aright? Do you think maybe because it is alcoholic or fermented perhaps?

...

No way for nomads to grow grapes in the desert for wine, or grow wheat for bread. This passage is about God depriving Israel of luxuries (bread, wine), but providing necessities (manna, clothing.) This placed Israel in a state of dependency on God so that He could show them His provision and care.

'I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.'

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holman_Christian_Standard_Bible

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

Again, not my commentary:

every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; that is, it is usual with men, when they make entertainments, first to give the guests the best, the most generous, and strongest bodied wine; as being most suitable for them, and they being then better able to bear it, and it being most for the credit of the maker of the feast:

and when men have well drank; not to excess, but freely, so as that they are exhilarated; and their spirits cheerful, but their brains not intoxicated: so the word, as answering to the Hebrew word is used by the Septuagint in Genesis 43:34,

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[SnowyMacie]

Also, if Jesus did make alcoholic wine, then he surely would have gotten them drunk (Which is a sin). For John chapter 2 essentially says or implies that the guests at the wedding were already "well drunk" because Jesus's wine was served last (Which was the best), instead of the best being normally served first.

You can drink wine without getting drunk.

It's a simple matter that there is no cultural, historical, exegetical, lexical, or contextual reason for the wine to be non-alcoholic wine.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
Another commentary. This time on "well drunk". This also is not mine:

Introduction

"Jesus saith unto them, Fill the water pots with water. And they filled them to the brim. And He saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (But the servants which drew the water knew) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, and saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: But thou hast kept the good wine until now. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee and manifested forth His glory..." (John 2:7-11)

Right out of the starting gate let us please make one thing perfectly clear. Verse ten above says, "When men have well drunk." The word "drunk" is a verb as in "drunk, drink or drank." It is not an adjective describing someone's intoxicated condition. It does not say, as some have told me, "When men were well drunk."

This is a reference to how much liquid had been consumed. It is not a reference to how intoxicated someone became by drinking that liquid. Many times over the course of my life I "have well drunk" of non-alcoholic beverages. But this does not mean that I was well drunk, or intoxicated with my facilities impaired, as a result.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
Another commentary, this time on the inability of Jesus to sin in this regard, like to sin with The Sabbath as He is The Lord of The Sabbath. This also, is not mine:

One lingering question here that apparently caused one or more bible study participants to go against the clear meaning of the text is: does the act of turning water to wine make Jesus complicit in the furthering of drunkenness (assuming that the feast’s governor was accurate in his assertion)? Obviously this is an irrational question. This is similar to asking if God can create a stone that is too big for Himself to lift. What makes both of these questions irrational is that God’s defining traits (i.e. Holiness, Omnipotence) contradict the logical predicates of both sentences in question. Moreover, since according to Scripture (i.e. 1Timothy 6:15 ) God is potentate–a ruler unconstrained by law–it is thus not possible for Him to break a law, which is precisely what is meant when we say that someone has committed a sin. Everything God does is not only considered righteous by definition; but is actually the standard for righteousness when those actions are understood in the proper context. It is thus impossible for our Holy God to be complicit in sin, the same way it is impossible for our Omnipotent God to not be omnipotent, the same way it is impossible for the color green to have a sound. These sentences violate the law of non-contradiction and are thus unsuitable for us to ponder. We must be careful to not ask or entertain questions that are irrational so as to not give these questions legitimacy.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, as for which groups share the belief that Jesus made unfermented wine and the Jews drank a low alcoholic wine: The truth of God's Word is not determined by the popularity of man. The truth of God's Word is true regardless of what man says or believes. Truth is not determined by a poll of popularity.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi,
Another commentary. This time on "well drunk". This also is not mine:

Introduction

"Jesus saith unto them, Fill the water pots with water. And they filled them to the brim. And He saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (But the servants which drew the water knew) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, and saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: But thou hast kept the good wine until now. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee and manifested forth His glory..." (John 2:7-11)

Right out of the starting gate let us please make one thing perfectly clear. Verse ten above says, "When men have well drunk." The word "drunk" is a verb as in "drunk, drink or drank." It is not an adjective describing someone's intoxicated condition. It does not say, as some have told me, "When men were well drunk."

This is a reference to how much liquid had been consumed. It is not a reference to how intoxicated someone became by drinking that liquid. Many times over the course of my life I "have well drunk" of non-alcoholic beverages. But this does not mean that I was well drunk, or intoxicated with my facilities impaired, as a result.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

The commentary is illogical. If the substance was non-alcoholic (of course it is not going to intoxicate you). But if the substance was intoxicating, it would not take much to get people to be drunk if they were well drunk on such said substance. If I was "well drunk" of a substance, whether it was intoxicating or not intoxicating, it would be a significant amount. The context says that they used the best wine first and that the worst wine was used last. But Jesus saved the best wine for last. They were also out of wine, too. This all suggests that the wedding guests had all drank up the reserves of the wine that was supposed to be supplied at the wedding. So Jesus making more wine that was intoxicating would just make them even more intoxicated would have been a sin. Remember, it only takes 3 glasses of wine to legally intoxicate someone today. Are you saying that guests at the wedding party were "well drunk" on only 1 or 2 glasses of wine? Would not Jesus making more intoxicating wine push them dangerously close to that 3rd glass that would intoxicate them?