The wedding at Cana: Wine or grape juice?

[Bible Highlighter]

You've accused some billion Christians by judging their hearts as "not having fellowship". Good luck with that.

I didn't say all of them. I realize there are many within Institutional Churches who also meet outside in small house groups that fellowship with one another (without them realizing it is true fellowship).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You've accused some billion Christians by judging their hearts as "not having fellowship". Good luck with that.

We are not to add to God's Word. I cannot write a book and say it is a part of the Bible. Nor can I make up some new spoken man made tradition and also say it is a part of God's Word (even though it cannot be seen). God's Word is the standard that will judge every man. So it will not be me who judges people, but it is the Word of God that does so (In which I stand behind).

 

[Rajni]

People only over intoxicate themselves when they drink waaaaaay more water in one sitting than what their body can handle.

That is irrelevant in regards to your previous statement.
Before, you had said:

“There are many warnings in Scripture against the
very use of strong drink itself (And not just getting
drunk on it).”

So, even without getting drunk on it, it is, according
to you, wrong to use something that could get you
drunk. Water could get a person drunk—the amount
it would take for that to happen is beside the point.

Therefore, by your standards, one would have to
abstain from water as well.

-

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is irrelevant in regards to your previous statement.
Before, you had said:

“There are many warnings in Scripture against the
very use of strong drink itself (And not just getting
drunk on it).”

So, even without getting drunk on it, it is, according
to you, wrong to use something that could get you
drunk. Water could get a person drunk—the amount
it would take for that to happen is beside the point.

Therefore, by your standards, one would have to
abstain from water as well.

-

First, please take careful note that I said it was forbidden to the OT saint (and not the NT saint) to drink alcohol. Second, the warnings against alcohol to the OT saint had prevented them from even drinking of strong wine or strong drink. For example: The OT saint was forbidden to eat unclean animals, but the NT saint has a liberty in Christ to eat them. This does not mean the warnings against alcohol in the OT have magically disappeared. They still apply. For we can look and see that wine can indeed bite people like a serpent every single day by the fact that many die every week from such a drug. Alcoholism and driving under the influence is a serious problem. Drinking water or Water intoxication is not a serious problem like Alcohol drinking and or standard drunkenness. Water intoxication does happen but it is rare and it is what I would call gluttony or extreme stupidity by a select few. Alcoholism or driving under the influence can take place if you drink just one glass. It is an addictive drug that can lead you to drink more and more and it impairs your judgment. Water does not impair your judgment unless you are being dumb to begin with by ignoring your body's warnings to consume waaaaay too much of it. Water intoxication is rare by comparison to alcoholic intoxication. They are not even in the same ballpark. One is an addictive drug; And the other is not.

 

[Rajni]

Water intoxication is not a serious problem like this.

Probably because its dangers are far more deadly in
the short-term. One doesn’t have to get behind the
wheel of a car before water intoxication kills
them. Once it kicks in, they may not even make
it to the car before they not only pass out, but
pass on.

-

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Probably because its dangers are far more deadly in
the short-term. One doesn’t have to get behind the
wheel of a car before water intoxication kills
them. Once it kicks in, they may not even make
it to the car before they not only pass out, but
pass on.

-

Water is not addictive drug that kills people in cars every week. Alcohol is an addictive drug that kills many in cars every week and breaks up many homes. Alcohol leads to many diseases and alcoholism. Water is no way like that. Try as you may to make such an illusion that water intoxication is the same as alcohol intoxication is never going to actually be real (in the way that you would like it to be).

 

[Rajni]

Water is not addictive drug that kills people in cars every week.

Exactly, for reasons I have already outlined; water is
too deadly for anyone to have the chance to take it
that far.

Alcohol is an addictive drug that kills many in cars every week and breaks up many homes. Alcohol leads to many diseases and alcoholism.

Technically, alcohol, being an inanimate object,
doesn't do those things, people's misuse of it does
those things.

Try as you may to make such an illusion that water intoxication is the same as alcohol intoxication is never going to actually be real (in the way that you would like it to be).

Obviously the two types of intoxication aren't
identical—water is more deadly in the short-
term. However, you have already established that a
substance should be off-limits before such dangers
manifest; that the mere potential for intoxication—
which both water and wine carry—is enough
justification for abstention from it. That was my
point.

-

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Exactly, for reasons I have already outlined; water is
too deadly for anyone to have the chance to take it
that far.

Technically, alcohol, being an inanimate object,
doesn't do those things, people's misuse of it does
those things.

Obviously the two types of intoxication aren't
identical—water is more deadly in the short-
term. However, you have already established that a
substance should be off-limits before such dangers
manifest; that the mere potential for intoxication—
which both water and wine carry—is enough
justification for abstention from it. That was my
point.

-

I believe you do not understand the points that I have made and you are seeing something that is not there. Both the Bible and reality give us clear warnings against drinking alcohol. Granted, it's not that drinking alcohol is not lawful. But not all things lawful are profitable, though.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Holy Spirit speaks to the heart of a person if they are sinning.

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;" ----(John 16:8-9).

Thank you. It is evident that you do not have a clear definition for gluttony, but your definition of drunkenness excludes any and all forms of alcohol.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you. It is evident that you do not have a clear definition for gluttony, but your definition of drunkenness excludes any and all forms of alcohol.

Drunkenness is when you are no longer sober minded. It's pretty simple. Gluttony is where a person overindulges in food to such a point that it effects their health. Usually this is a person that is so seriously overweight, that they will have serious health problems if they don't lose weight. However, Jesus said we are not to judge by outward appearances, though. Why? Because that person could have just accepted the LORD or repented of their backslidden ways. They could have a medical problem where it is hard for them to lose weight even if they ate right and worked out like crazy.

Gluttony would be going beyond just eating to satiate hunger. Gluttony would be eating all the time even when you are not hungry.

 

[katerinah1947]

I agree with Romans 14. I am an Abstentionist and not a Prohibitionist.

Prohibitionists believe that the bible absolutely prohibits the consumption of alcoholic beverages; And it is a sin to drink it. This position is defeated by the fact that Timothy was told by Paul to have a little wine within his water for the infirmities of his stomach. This was not a medical prescription for every day stomach problems but it was for the purification of water (because some people do not have the tolerance or immune system to handle it). Also, Romans 14 tells us that all things are indeed pure. So drinking can be permissible as long as one does not drink to get drunk or to make their brother to stumble. So the Prohibitionist view that it is a sin to drink wine is not necessarily spelled out to us in Scripture; And cannot be supported as a solid viable position.

Abstentionists believe that the bible does not absolutely prohibit the consumption of alcohol but for numerous reasons, Christians should abstain from using it. In this view, any amount of drinking that causes one to not be sober in any way directly contradicts those passages that tell us to be sober minded. Also, this view holds that drinking should be done in private and not publicly where your brother could see you and stumble. This view recommends that while it is lawful for you to drink, it is not always profitable so it is highly encouraged to abstain from it. Not out of some sense of legalism but out of love for God, yourself and your brother. Thus, it preaches the reality of the dangers of alcohol and how it can bite you like a serpent (despite it being lawful).

For the Kingdom of God is not meat or drink but joy in the Holy Ghost.


...

Hi again,

Okay, Christians believe in the Bible.

Abstentionists believe in their views of the Bible on alcohol, it seems you are saying.

Thus was this thread never about The Wedding Feast at Cana, but about something else, such as not the Modern Day Temperance Movement, but The Abstentionist view of Scriptures?

I am confused now, as to what the remaining questions are.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

1 Peter 2:13-17

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.


It seems appropriate here, as it also agrees with Romans 13:1-5.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[prodromos]

There are two problems that I see Biblically here. One, there is no version of your communion to be found practiced or commanded in the New Testament. Second, there is no version of Institional Church gathering of fellowship found in the New Testament, either. So no. I will stick to what the Bible says. Why? Because Jesus says we will be judged by His words (John 12:48). Man's words, commandments, or traditions do not mean anything to me. Only God's Word matters.

The Bible describes the Church in its infancy, when believers were few. It did not remain an infant however. The other problem with your position is that the Bible you hold so dear is a product of what you call the "institutional Church" which also gave us the Liturgy centred around the Eucharist.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Drunkenness is when you are no longer sober minded. It's pretty simple. Gluttony is where a person overindulges in food to such a point that it effects their health. Usually this is a person that is so seriously overweight, that they will have serious health problems if they don't lose weight. However, Jesus said we are not to judge by outward appearances, though. Why? Because that person could have just accepted the LORD or repented of their backslidden ways. They could have a medical problem where it is hard for them to lose weight even if they ate right and worked out like crazy.

Gluttony would be going beyond just eating to satiate hunger. Gluttony would be eating all the time even when you are not hungry.

Makes me smile when some ppl try to claim that at Cana the Lord Jesus did not change the water in to real wine, because they don't believe in drinking wine. The liberals will then say, Oh, so you agree with us after all that it wasn't a real miracle...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Makes me smile when some ppl try to claim that at Cana the Lord Jesus did not change the water in to real wine, because they don't believe in drinking wine. The liberals will then say, Oh, so you agree with us after all that it wasn't a real miracle...

Oh, it was real wine alright. It was just unfermented wine and not fermented wine. Dictionaries confirm many times over that wine is defined as either fermented or unfermented. In addition, Isaiah 65:8 says new wine is found in the cluster of the grape. So if you believe Isaiah 65:8 is talking about alcoholic wine, are you saying that the wine or juice inside the cluster of a grape is alcoholic? If so, where can one buy these alcoholic grapes? Why do you think people are not carded for buying grapes?

 

[SnowyMacie]

It was real, fermented wine, with alcohol. Get over it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, if Jesus did make alcoholic wine, then he surely would have gotten them drunk (Which is a sin). For John chapter 2 essentially says or implies that the guests at the wedding were already "well drunk" because Jesus's wine was served last (Which was the best), instead of the best being normally served first.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Oh, it was real wine alright. It was just unfermented wine and not fermented wine. Dictionaries confirm many times over that wine is defined as either fermented or unfermented. In addition, Isaiah 65:8 says new wine is found in the cluster of the grape. So if you believe Isaiah 65:8 is talking about alcoholic wine, are you saying that the wine or juice inside the cluster of a grape is alcoholic? If so, where can one buy these alcoholic grapes? Why do you think people are not carded for buying grapes?

I thought wine was wine...

 

[faroukfarouk]

Also, if Jesus did make alcoholic wine, then he surely would have gotten them drunk (Which is a sin). For John chapter 2 essentially says or implies that the guests at the wedding were already "well drunk" because Jesus's wine was served last (Which was the best), instead of the best being normally served first.

This is a big assumption.

Remember: most Christians in the world don't have Prohibition as part of their cultural past.

My wife and I prefer not to have wine in the house, actually.

But this is different from saying that eveyone who drinks wine is in sin, even despite the example of the Lord turning the water into wine at Cana.

Blessings.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Bible describes the Church in its infancy, when believers were few. It did not remain an infant however. The other problem with your position is that the Bible you hold so dear is a product of what you call the "institutional Church" which also gave us the Liturgy centred around the Eucharist.

First, nowhere does the Bible say we can add anything to it (like another book, or some kind of church tradition, etc.). 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that the Word of God is profitable so that the man of God can be made perfect unto EVERY good work. This was written before any tradition came about later. So what need does the man of God have for tradition if he can be made perfect unto EVERY good work with the Word of God? Second, nowhere in Scripture do we see a picture of the Institional Church at all. Actually we see the exact opposite of that. Third, we also do not see the Eucharist as it is celebrated by Catholics or Orthodox Churches, either.