The United States of Europe - Mr. President

[Time Watcher]

"The two iron legs in Daniel 2:33 could represent how the ancient Roman Empire eventually split into two parts"


But they don't .... the divided extension of the two thighs continue as divided on the Image .... the two iron legs begin divided, and have not yet been formed at this time

There were two divided [one north and one south] with Israel between just before the first century .... we know who they were exactly as foretold

Then the image moves to the time of the end, and there are two again, one north and one south of Israel in the same region of the middle east

Both are in the hands of the Muslims today

The little horn and king of the north of Daniel's visions will at first rule the northern divide, and then will conquer the southern divide and add it to his middle eastern kingdom .... thus amalgamating the legs into his divided kingdom of iron and clay with 10 other selected middle eastern Muslim kings

The current upheaval among the the middle eastern Muslims will eventually produce the setting of the two iron legs .... one north, and one south of Israel

These will not be of any nations outside of the middle east proper .... all of the kingdoms of the image are of middle eastern origin

And Europe is not north of the middle east by the way .... this could only happen if the west could conquer and absorb the northern middle east to become the northern leg ... this possibility is not going to happen in my opinion

The Lord has the focus set squarely upon Israel and the adjacent states of the middle east surrounding Israel, and not other nations outside of the region who are not even identified by name [those in the middle east are identified]

All nations on the earth will be affected by the coming tribulation in one way or another, but the core of the visions of the Bible prophets has a focus upon Israel and the surrounding area .... past and future

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Time watcher

I agree the two legs most likely represent the East and West Empire which Eventually Became the Holy Roman Empire and The Byzantine Empire.

An Interesting question is since the ten toes were on two feet, five a piece, does that mean that this final version of the Kingdom will have 5 kingdoms from the western Empire and five from the Eastern Empire.

 

[tranquil]

The 4 beasts from the sea are explicitly said to refer to the latter days. Once we understand that, the whole picture starts to emerge.

[FONT=&quot]Hopefully these graphs will get across the ideas about the 4 beasts in a concise manner.[/FONT]

In Daniel 7, there are 4 end-time kingdoms that rise up: the lion w/ eagle wings, the bear, the 4 headed leopard, and the 4th beast. These are all for the latter days: the UK/ US, then Russia, then the 4 headed EU is given world dominion, then the 4th beast.

In Daniel 2:28, the head of gold, body of silver, belly of brass, and the legs of iron and clay are explicitly said to be for the latter days:

28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

Daniel 2:39
39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.


Look at the Daniel 8 war, the Ram versus the Goat (in Dan 7 terms: the Russian bear versus the EU leopard), it says it is for the time of the end. (Some would say that this is the Gog/ Magog war that occurs 7 years before the end.)

19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.[c] 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

If people can’t understand this basic thing, then the Gog/ Magog war/ Daniel 8 war and the meaning of the 2300 days will not make sense. When the Bear attacks, it replaces the Lion w/ eagle wings as the dominant empire. This is what triggers the start of the tribulation.

When Russia and Iran start to attack, this starts the 2300 days count, then when people realize their transgressions, they turn back to God and it starts the 70 weeks prophecy. Nov. 21, 2013 plus 2300 days is March 9, 2020. Add 69 weeks (483 days) until the messiah to get dusk July 4, 2021/ day of July 5, 2021.
Dusk Nov. 21, 2013 through dusk April 21, 2014 forms the “5 months” of a false “Trumpet 5”. April 21, 2014 through April 21, 2021 is the 7 year covenant. The 75th day afterward, the “blessed” 1335th day is dusk July 4, 2021/ day of July 5th, 2021.

In other words, the essence of the meaning of Dan 8’s 2300 days is this: “5 months” plus 7 solar years plus 75 days (1335 – 1260 days) = 2300 + 69 weeks (483 days). The locusts of “Trumpet 5” are the “people of prince to come” (Dan 9:26), “Apollyon”.

When Apollyon comes, they make a covenant with him, the 7 year covenant.

March 9, 2020, the end of the 2300 days, is when the “little horn” is thrown into hell. His 1260 day rule would thus be from August 27, 2016 through March 9, 2020.
Why Nov. 21st, 2013? This is 1 day earlier than the exact middle of the 7 years of the last 7 Shavuots of Daniel 9’s 70 Shavuots prophecy.

63rd Shavuot , MAY 19, 2010
64th Shavuot, JUNE 8, 2011
65th Shavuot, MAY 27, 2012
66th Shavuot , MAY 15, 2013

Nov 21, 2013 + 5 months of the people of the prince to come, makes a 7 year covenant April 21, 2014 through April 21, 2021.
​

67th Shavuot , JUNE 4, 2014
68th Shavuot , MAY 24, 2015
69th Shavuot , JUNE 12, 2016
70th Shavuot , May 31, 2017

The exact middle day of this timeframe is dusk Nov. 22, 2013/ day of Nov. 23, 2013 (1284 days before, 1284 days after).

Let's look at Daniel 8 in full. I've taken the liberty of replacing "ram" with "Media and Persia" (Russia and Iran) and "goat" with "Grecia"/ Greece/ EU as per Dan 8:20-21.

In the third year of King Belshazzar’s reign, I, Daniel, had a vision, after the one that had already appeared to me. 2 In my vision I saw myself in the citadel of Susa in the province of Elam; in the vision I was beside the Ulai Canal. 3 I looked up, and there before me was Media and Persia with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched Media and Persia (Russia and Iran) as it charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against it, and none could rescue from its power. It did as it pleased and became great.

[Russia and Iran become great during the 5 month period of Nov. 21, 2013 through April 21, 2014.]

5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly Grecia with a prominent horn between its eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 It came toward the two-horned Media and Persia (Russia and Iran) I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at it in great rage. 7 I saw it attack Media and Persia/ Russia and Iran furiously, striking Media and Persia and shattering its two horns. Media and Persia/ Russia and Iran were powerless to stand against it; Grecia knocked it to the ground and trampled on it, and none could rescue Media and Persia from its power. 8 Grecia became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

[As soon as the Bear/ Russia and Iran is defeated, the prominent horn dies and the EU splits into 4 units.]

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

then shall the sanctuaryH6944 be cleansed.H6663 (KJV)

Sanctuary, H6944
[FONT=&quot]קדשׁ[/FONT]
qôdesh
ko'-desh
From H6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstractly sanctity: - consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

Cleansed, H6663
[FONT=&quot]צדק[/FONT]
tsâdaq
tsaw-dak'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make) right (in a moral or forensic sense): - cleanse, clear self, (be, do) just (-ice, -ify, -ify self), (be, turn to) righteous (-ness).

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

Another translation might read, “it will take 2300 evenings and mornings; then the saints will turn to righteousness and cleanse themselves.” Which is another way of saying this from Daniel 9:25, the triggering of the 70 (literal) “weeks” prophecy:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

that fromH4480 the going forthH4161 of the commandmentH1697 to restoreH7725 and to buildH1129 JerusalemH3389 untoH5704 the MessiahH4899 the PrinceH5057

Restore, H7725
שׁוּב
shûb
shoob
A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbially again: - ([break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep]) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call [to mind], carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back) X consider, + continually, convert, deliver (again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get [oneself] (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), [go] out, hinder, let, [see] more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, recover, refresh, relieve, render (again), X repent, requite, rescue, restore, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.

So, read it again like this:

“it will take 2300 evenings and mornings; then the saints will turn to righteousness and cleanse themselves.”

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to [turn back to righteousness, cease from doing evil] and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

When Russia and Iran start to attack, this starts the 2300 days count, then when people realize their transgressions, they turn back to God and it starts the 70 weeks prophecy. Nov. 21, 2013 plus 2300 days is March 9, 2020. Add 69 weeks (483 days) until the messiah to get dusk July 4, 2021/ day of July 5, 2021.

Dusk Nov. 21, 2013 through dusk April 21, 2014 forms the “5 months” of a false “Trumpet 5”. April 21, 2014 through April 21, 2021 is the 7 year covenant. The 75th day afterward, the “blessed” 1335th day is dusk July 4, 2021/ day of July 5th, 2021.


In other words, the essence of the meaning of Dan 8’s 2300 days is this: “5 months” plus 7 solar years plus 75 days (1335 – 1260 days) = 2300 + 69 weeks (483 days).


March 9, 2020, the end of the 2300 days, is when the “little horn” is thrown into hell.
Daniel 7
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

That “season and time” is Daniel 9’s 70 weeks prophecy (roughly 1 year and 4 months).

their livesH2417 were prolongedH754 H3052 forH5705 a seasonH2166 and time.H5732

Season, H2166
[FONT=&quot]זמן[/FONT]
zemân
zem-awn'
(Chaldee); from H2165; the same as H2165: - season, time.

Time, H5732
[FONT=&quot]עדּן[/FONT]
‛iddân
id-dawn'
(Chaldee); from a root corresponding to that of H5708; a set time; technically a year: - time.

When the little horn/ Satan is thrown into hell, the 2 beasts (the Antichrist and False Prophet kingdoms – the Israel and USA rulers/ oppressors) lose their dominion, but are kept alive until the 7 years are up (up through April 21, 2021) and people have committed themselves to Christ and they turn their backs on their wicked rulers.

 

[tranquil]

Continuing on with Daniel 8

15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”
17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,”[b] he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”
18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.
19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.[c] 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.
23 “In the latter part of their reign

[In the latter part of the 3rd beast’s 1260 day rule from a start of April 21, 2014 – meaning August 27, 2016 (1260 days from March 9, 2020, the 2300rd day from Nov. 21st, 2013.]

when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

27 I, Daniel, was worn out. I lay exhausted for several days. Then I got up and went about the king’s business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding.

​

Since we know the Russia/ Iran versus the EU/ “Grecia” battle takes place in the latter days, we know that all 4 beasts of Daniel 7 are sequential in the latter days. First, the UK/ US rules (lion w/ eagle wings), then Russia (the Bear, the Russian Prime Minister’s name, Dmitri Medvedev, means “of the bear” - the 10 toes of the bear bring "of the bear" to power - Medvedev is also short, 5' 4", to qualify as the "little" horn), then the EU defeats Russia and Iran, and they both sign an agreement of some sort on April 21, 2014.

Then Dan 8:23, “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. “

This is the 4th beast, the little horn, that is given 3.5 years to wreak havoc, August 27, 2016 through March 9, 2020. This 4th beast kingdom ( apparently set up Oct. 3, 2017 through April 21, 2021) is comprised of Satan (the little horn), the antichrist, and the false prophet (which mirrors Jesus coming and empowering Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel).

Daniel 7

2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

February 29, 2020, is the 888th lunar cycle since the start of Israel, May 15, 1948 (888 being Jesus Christ’s gematria number.) Add 10 days of judgment, “10 days of tribulation”, to get to the 2300th day, March 9, 2020.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

Reading the beginning of chapter of Daniel 9, we can see the idea of Jerusalem being repentant, “turning to righteousness”. Daniel 9 NKJV - Daniel’s Prayer for the People - In - Bible Gateway

 

[Douggg]

Hi Time watcher

I agree the two legs most likely represent the East and West Empire which Eventually Became the Holy Roman Empire and The Byzantine Empire.

An Interesting question is since the ten toes were on two feet, five a piece, does that mean that this final version of the Kingdom will have 5 kingdoms from the western Empire and five from the Eastern Empire.

Does Daniel say that the kingdom of the legs of iron is separated because there are two legs? He is the one who God gave the interpretation of the dream to.

No, Daniel does not. So you guys are outside of the interpretation by on your own interpreting the two legs as being the western Roman Empire and the eastern Roman Empire.

What Daniel does explain because the statue had the features was that of the iron and clay mixture in the feet, the kingdom toward the end will be partly strong, partly broken. Which is certainly the case of some of the countries in the EU.

The ten toes are of the one kingdom. The fourth empire. It is ten kings of the EU.


Doug

Jesus is coming, and His reward is with him.

 

[Time Watcher]

"I agree the two legs most likely represent the East and West Empire which Eventually Became the Holy Roman Empire and The Byzantine Empire"


Absolutely not true, and neither is an amalgamated set of European states in the vision

The vision of the image has nothing to do with Rome or any other members of today's western nations outside of the Middle East

And certainly not the broader "east/west" idea

The thighs and legs of the image are both north and south of Israel, both representing Middle Eastern regions

The thighs of the past are presented in Daniel 11:4-35 ... the two larger divisions of Alexander's Asian holdings .... Syrio/Babylonia and Egypt

This same geographical orientation is carried on presenting the two iron legs, but at the end of this present age

The little horn will rise north of Israel [in the northern Middle East], and he will defeat the coming leader of the southern region [in the southern Middle East] [Daniel 11:40]

The Muslim states are currently in upheaval, and it is this divide of Islam that will align the setting of the coming tribulation period ... the offset between the Shia and Sunni Muslims

The more militant Shia persuasion, and the more moderate Sunni persuasion

This setting has not yet completely developed at this time ... but it will

Primarily the more militant an stronger Shia constituents .... the iron

Primarily the more moderate and weaker Sunni constituents .... the clay

The ultimate alignment will reflect the feet and toes of the image

And it this end time configuration that the little horn will confederate into the divided Middle Eastern kingdom of iron and clay ... he will hand pick his other kings and divide the kingdom accordingly [Daniel 2:1-43; 7:7-25; 8:23-25; 11:36-45; 12:7] ... the price for the dividing will be to give him the kingdom [Daniel 11:39; Revelation 17:17]

And it is this beast in the human little horn and his 10 other kings who will eliminate western dominance by destroying the hub of the "great city" of MBG [most likely the USA if we are close to the time of the end]

Once this global ecomonic, financial, and commercial trading nation is out of the way, the beast and his Muslim kingdom will be in a position to attack and subdue Israel, and add this component of the holy land to his Middle Eastern holdings

..... but only for a short period of time [1260 days, 42 months] [Daniel 11:41; Revelation 11:2; 13:1-5]

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Jesus is coming, and His reward is with him.

That he is, and the more I read here in GT, the more I pray that it be soon!

 

[MoreCoffee]

That he is, and the more I read here in GT, the more I pray that it be soon!

Come Lord Jesus!

 

[MoreCoffee]

A thought for end-times exponents

End Time preaching by Catholic priest - YouTube

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Time Watcher

22: Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.23: And in the latter time of their kingdom,


Who in your mind are the four spoken of here and more importantly who is the THEIR in their Kingdom. Do you see the Their as the descendants or some completely different people that actually have nothing to do with the four.


Hi Doug

Quote
No, Daniel does not. So you guys are outside of the interpretation by on your own interpreting the two legs as being the western Roman Empire and the eastern Roman Empire.
End Quote

You are kidding Right!!!!! I have never meet anyone that just puts his own assumptions on scripture and then treats them as fact as often as you do.

Please go back and read what I wrote again

"I agree the two legs most likely represent the East and West Empire"

That is the difference between you and me. I only state things with certainty when scripture states it in no uncertain terms. Things like the Dragon is the Devil...The Goat is Greece etc. etc. When it is opinion or speculation I use terms like I believe or it seems to me or it is more likely.

try it you may like it

 

[Time Watcher]

"Who in your mind are the four spoken of here and more importantly who is the THEIR in their Kingdom. Do you see the Their as the descendants or some completely different people that actually have nothing to do with the four"


Daniel 11:3-4 gives additional information and tells that two of the 4 kingdoms are the focus of the balance of the chapter .... these two were the largest and most significant in relation to Israel at the time, and the same will be again at the future time appointed [Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7] .... the other two western divisions are not in the focus of the vision

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Time Watcher

You answered the first question You see the King of the North as the Seleucid Empire and the Ptolemy Empire is King of the South. I assume that is correct???

However you did not address the second question.

It says "in the later days of their rule"

Who is the "THEIR" and "the latter days" does it mean their descendants or does it mean people who have no relation and no connection to The "their" in the verse

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 39:

When the Lord projected the coming 70th week [same the time of "Jacob's trouble"] ....

The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

Time Watcher said in post 39:

A political European and Pope/RCC centered Rome is not a part of this scope, ancient or future

Actually, it is one part of the scope, which is wider than just Europe. For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman Empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman Empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman Empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

*******

Time Watcher said in post 46:

This same geographical orientation is carried on presenting the two iron legs, but at the end of this present age

Regarding "at the end of this present age", note that while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur before the tribulation, or even at the end of the tribulation, i.e. at his (post-trib) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when it would occur, just as he didn't tell them many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that he would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation, that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

Time Watcher said in post 46:

And it is this beast in the human little horn and his 10 other kings who will eliminate western dominance by destroying the hub of the "great city" of MBG [most likely the USA if we are close to the time of the end]

Note that while the corrupt aspects of the U.S. (and of other countries) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the U.S. For the U.S. just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the U.S. the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the U.S. the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the U.S. just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the U.S. been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Nonetheless, the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" may currently be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the first leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the 2nd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the 3rd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), may currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the first century AD (Matthew 23:35-38). Ultimately, all 3 legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what's sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And two nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against two major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap two terrorist nuclear bombs against two of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the two cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy, and military. Its days as a superpower will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Washington DC and New York City are attacked with nuclear bombs, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadis? Or could it be a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadi attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to take over the world? And besides nuking Washington DC and New York City, could the cabal also nuke Los Angeles, destroying the major west coast port of the U.S.? And could the "Islamic terrorists" claim that they nuked Los Angeles because it contains Hollywood, and contains the San Fernando Valley, a center for inappropriate contentographic video production, so that Los Angeles has contributed greatly to the corrupt entertainment culture that dominates the world today, even in Islamic countries behind closed doors?

Regarding Jerusalem getting destroyed, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including a 3rd Jewish temple (which will be built) and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) being completely broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another throughout the city (Luke 19:44). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem in righteousness and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4), during his 1,000-year physical reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Armoured]

I think it is very likely.

*pat pat* Of course you do.

 

[Time Watcher]

"The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24"


Actually it will ... the time lapse of the 70th week is 1260 days + 1260 days ... and the additional 30 days in which the Lord will rescue the remnant from the beast and his Muslim followers and destroy then at Armageddon ... the recoverd remnant of Israel will be involved in the process

And I said that the USA is suspect if the world is close to the time of the end .... it is true that the destruction coming will involve the cities of all of the other nations upon the earth who are attached

 

[Douggg]

Actually it will ... the time lapse of the 70th week is 1260 days + 1260 days ...

1260 days + 3 1/2 days = 42 months remaining

1260 days + 3 /12 days + war in heaven = T, Ts, 1/2 T remaining

First half
1260 days

Second half
42 months
T, Ts, 1/2 T

 

[Douggg]

First half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, 12:6

Second half
42 months - Revelation 11:2, 13:5
T, Ts, 1/2 T - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Doug

Maybe if I explain it this way you will understand. The Book is

1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,

Jesus is the one, THE ONLY ONE, that can reveal these event and when they happen.

Now above you give time lines and say that these verses and war in heaven will happen in the future.

7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

You need to listen to Jesus...... you need to trust him and not the precepts of men.

17: And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Jesus reveals to us when this happened you need to trust Jesus' very, very plain words.

Rev 12 is a recap of events. After Satan falls he pursues the 70 who Jesus sent out. Through Saul the Seventy are hunted down and killed Stephen being the first of the 70 to be murdered.

Satan then loses his main man on earth and Saul becomes Paul. Christianity starts to spread. Satan decides it is time to go all out and destroy Judea. He rouses the Empire that he has given his seat of Power to and has it destroy Judea.

Daniel 9 is not about Jesus. Jesus is not the anointed one in Daniel 9 there is no remaining week to be fulfilled. Jesus uses the term flood in Rev 12 to tie it to Daniel 9 and the destruction of Jerusalem

[26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

But this plan fails too and the Woman is saved. So Satan turns his Attention to persecution of Christians through his beast Rome and the persecutions go on through to 314AD under Pagan Rome.

Jesus tells us in very plain language when Satan is cast out of Heaven he tells us that he seen Satan fall to earth. Either you trust Jesus or you do not.

 

[Time Watcher]

"Who is the "THEIR" and "the latter days" does it mean their descendants or does it mean people who have no relation and no connection to The "their" in the verse"


The reference is to the descendants of the two significant divides of Alexander's kingdom .... north and south of Israel ... the Syrio/ Babylonian and Egypt

Both of these populations still exist in today's Middle East

The little horn will rise in the northern divide and he will conquer the southern divide [Daniel 11:40] during the coming tribulation period

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Time Watcher

But the Seleucid Empire was Greek from top to bottom in 166 BC when the took over Judea they slaughter a pig to Zeus in the Temple and turned it into a Gym. They were never a Babylonian or Persian Empire they may have controlled that territory but the were Greek by Blood Culture and Ties.

When the Empire finally fell to Rome............The last King was murdered on orders of Pompeii. Rome ruled modern Turkey Lebanon and the circle around the Mediterranean all the way through the 6th century then lost Africa but Byzantium held on to Turkey and everything else north of the Bosporus till 15th century.

SOOOOOOOO if it is their descendants it will be Greeks / Romans not Persians / Babylonians
Hi Time Watcher

But the Seleucid Empire was Greek from top to bottom in 166 BC when the took over Judea they slaughter a pig to Zeus in the Temple and turned it into a Gym. They were never a Babylonian or Persian Empire they may have controlled that territory but the were Greek by Blood Culture and Ties.

When the Empire finally fell to Rome............The last King was murdered on orders of Pompeii. Rome ruled modern Turkey Lebanon and the circle around the Mediterranean all the way through the 6th century then lost Africa but Byzantium held on to Turkey till 15th century.

SOOOOOOOO if it is their descendants it will be Greeks / Romans not Persians / Babylonians