The United States of Europe - Mr. President

[Douggg]

Both were present and ruling over ancient Babel [kingdom of Babylon], the one just before it, the next 3 Middle Eastern Kingdoms after .... and two that are coming for a total of 7 [Revelation 17:8-14]

Where are you getting that Abaddon was not thrown into the bottomless pit before the flood? The tower of Babel was after the flood.

Doug

 

[Time Watcher]

Abaddon has existed from his creation and Revelation tells that this beast rules over 7 human kingdoms in the Middle East for Satan .... 5 of his kingdoms have fallen .... the 6th will exist at the beginning of the coming tribulation period when he is released from the abyss [Revelation 9:11. 17:8-14]

And he will expand it into his 7th divided kingdom [the last one] with 10 other human kings

If Abaddon is in the abyss just before his 6th .... then he had to be sent there after his 5th, because he ruled the first 5 .... and then "was not"... and he will come out of the abyss to rule the 6th which is still pending

So he did not go into the abyss before the first 5 .... he ruled over them [the land of magog and his brothers, the Assyrian, the Babylonian, the Persian, and the Syrian]

Did he go into the abyss just after the flood and then come out to rule over the 5 now fallen?

I would say no .... what would be the purpose of him going in and then coming right back out

The abyss is a place where the Lord restrains the fallen ones so that they cannot interact with humainty [Jude 1:6]

The fallen angels who inhabited the earth before the flood were sent to the abyss just after [these are still there and will be released upon the earth when Abaddon is released [Revelation 9:1-11]

Since he is their king .... he was their king before the flood .... but he did not go into the abyss with them just after the flood

Abaddon did not go into the abyss after the flood because he ruled over his first 5 successive kingdoms on the earth beginning shortly after the flood

It was just after his 5th earthly kingdom fell before the 1st century when he was sent to the abyss ... his kingdom rule was "wounded" .... made inoperative

When he is released to rule again his kingdom rule will be "healed"

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Doug

You have already agreed that a Beast can be a Kingdom not just a Man.

You assume it is the Man that has the number 666 on it.

the whole 666 thing is so misunderstood. The Language of Rev is Greek in Greek each letter has a corresponding Numerical value just like x = ten in Latin. You take the name of the Kingdom in Greek assign the correct numerical value to each letter add them up it = 666. Rome.

So for the Greeks of the 1st century AD.

The Roman Empire was the Lateinos Empire.

L(Lambda) = 30,
A(Alpha) = 1
T(Tau) = 300
E(Epsilon) = 5
I(Iota) = 10
N(Nu) =50
O(Omicron) = 70
S(Sigma) = 200.
Total 666.

Rome is the Beast of Rev 13 it is sacked in the Fifth Century. The Reborn in the 6th Century as the Holy Roman Empire.

The beast has seven heads The Lion one head the Bear one Head the Leopard four heads Terrible Beast one head. Rome absorbs them all and their lives are prolonged a season through Rome. The head of the Terrible Beast (Rome) is wounded. Then Miraculously it is Reborn with the title of Kingdom of God on Earth. and the whole world except for the King of the South and the Kings of the East follow after it

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think it is very likely. There is nothing in the bible that contradicts it from happening.


Doug

Since the Bible says nothing about a chartreuse goat eating the mid-west, following your logic; I could say that I think it is very likely also. That goat may be wearing a tinfoil hat too.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just a few days ago, it caught my attention, the Italian PM Letta called for an United States of Europe, which is a European federal government with a directly elected leader from the people. When that comes to pass, and there are ten kings making up that government - as well; the directly elected leader could be the Antichrist.

Will the Europeans unwittingly elect the Antichrist to power? I think it is a good possibility.

Doug

Ten kings [ruling] in Europe? You've got to be kidding

 

[Douggg]

Abaddon has existed from his creation and Revelation tells that this beast rules over 7 human kingdoms in the Middle East for Satan .... 5 of his kingdoms have fallen .... the 6th will exist at the beginning of the coming tribulation period when he is released from the abyss [Revelation 9:11. 17:8-14]

And he will expand it into his 7th divided kingdom [the last one] with 10 other human kings

The sixth king was ruling at the time of John

If Abaddon is in the abyss just before his 6th .... then he had to be sent there after his 5th, because he ruled the first 5 .... and then "was not"... and he will come out of the abyss to rule the 6th which is still pending

So he did not go into the abyss before the first 5 .... he ruled over them [the land of magog and his brothers, the Assyrian, the Babylonian, the Persian, and the Syrian]

I am assuming that by 6th kingdom (in your theory), you are referring to Roman Empire, and 6th as the end times version of the Roman empire, when Abaddon will be released. The bible says the ten kings in Daniel 7 are of the 4th empire, not the 6th.

What is your biblical verse that Abaddon was cast into the bottomless pit after the flood? You are giving your rationale based on your presumption that Abaddon is the beast. That's circular reasoning.

I am asking for some verse, apart from the circular reasoning that Abaddon was cast into the bottomless pit sometime apart from the flood.

Did he go into the abyss just after the flood and then come out to rule over he 5 now fallen?

I would say no .... what would be the purpose of him going in and then coming right back out

What would be the purpose of him going into the pit after ruling five kings?

The abyss is a place where the Lord restrains the fallen ones so that they cannot interact with humainty [Jude 1:6]

The fallen angels who inhabited the earth before the flood were sent to the abyss just after [these are still there and will be released upon the earth when Abaddon is released [Revelation 9:1-11]

The bible doesn't say regarding Abaddon as being separate from those angels. The only angels recorded in the bible as being the bottomless pit are those who did not keep their first estate. So biblically speaking he is part of that group. And was not around at the time of the five kings (of your theory). The five fallen (kings) were fallen at the time of John first century. The sixth king was ruling at the time of John.

Since he is their king .... he was their king before the flood .... but he did not go into the abyss with them just after the flood

Well find somewhere in the bible of angels being cast into the bottomless pit apart from the flood in the text.

Abaddon did not go into the abyss after the flood because he ruled over his first 5 successive kingdoms on the earth beginning shortly after the flood

Based on your presumption that he is the beast. Circular reasoning.

It was just after his 5th earthly kingdom fell before the 1st century when he was sent to the abyss ... his kingdom rule was "wounded" .... made inoperative

The wounded head is a king, not a kingdom. There are only four empires. The Antichrist comes out of the fourth. The beast is part of the seven kings, because he will possess the mortally wounded and recovered former seventh king, the future Antichrist. By possessing the seventh king come back to life, he becomes the eighth.

When he is released to rule again his kingdom rule will be "healed"

Rome was the kingdom at the time of John first century. You are implying Rome is the 6th kingdom, what was the fifth kingdom which Abaddon in your theory was cast into the bottomless pit - and why then? I am assuming that you are claiming Syrian empire was the fifth.


Doug

 

[Douggg]

Ten kings [ruling] in Europe? You've got to be kidding

Hi Coffee time,

Ten rulers. The ten king language of the bible just implies rulers. Didn't I reply to you before? Go have a cup . Wake up...

Doug

 

[Douggg]

Hi Doug

You have already agreed that a Beast can be a Kingdom not just a Man.

No "can be", but "is".... in Revelation 13 only. Because in that Chapter the beast cmes out of the sea just like in Daniel 7.

You assume it is the Man that has the number 666 on it.

No, I don't take that position. The Antichrist himself may not have the 666 on himself. His followers have to take the number, his name, or the mark.

And I don't read in the description of the beast in Revelation 13:1-2 as having 666 anywhere on it.

My position is that the 666 is associated with the beast as representing a man, not the empire connotation.

the whole 666 thing is so misunderstood. The Language of Rev is Greek in Greek each letter has a corresponding Numerical value just like x = ten in Latin. You take the name of the Kingdom in Greek assign the correct numerical value to each letter add them up it = 666. Rome.

I don't know what the name of the Antichrist-beast is. I know that the beast as a king is not Rome. And the 666 is assocated with a person, not a kingdom.

So for the Greeks of the 1st century AD.

The Roman Empire was the Lateinos Empire.

L(Lambda) = 30,
A(Alpha) = 1
T(Tau) = 300
E(Epsilon) = 5
I(Iota) = 10
N(Nu) =50
O(Omicron) = 70
S(Sigma) = 200.
Total 666.

The 666 has something to do with a person's name.

Rome is the Beast of Rev 13 it is sacked in the Fifth Century. The Reborn in the 6th Century as the Holy Roman Empire.

It is 7 sequential kings of the 4th kingdom.

The beast has seven heads The Lion one head the Bear one Head the Leopard four heads Terrible Beast one head. Rome absorbs them all and their lives are prolonged a season through Rome. The head of the Terrible Beast (Rome) is wounded. Then Miraculously it is Reborn with the title of Kingdom of God on Earth. and the whole world except for the King of the South and the Kings of the East follow after it

It is the body in Revelation 13 that appears as a composite. Mouth a lion (Babylonian empire), the torso a leopard (Greek Empire), the feet a bear Medes/Persian). The heads (and horns) are specific to the beast, the fourth empire.

Many see the EU as a resurgence of the Roman Empire - yet no-one is worshiping it in awe. The mortally wounded and healed head is a man. That is who the people are going to worship, not a kingdom.


Doug

 

[Douggg]

Since the Bible says nothing about a chartreuse goat eating the mid-west, following your logic; I could say that I think it is very likely also. That goat may be wearing a tinfoil hat too.

Unlike your midwest goat, the bible does say that the little horn will emerge from the fourth empire end times made up of ten kings at the latter time of their kingdom. And the fourth empire end times version, the EU, is going through a process to get to the ten kings version.

The events taking place in the EU is not unrelated to specific bible prophecies.

Doug

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Doug

Quote
It is the body in Revelation 13 that appears as a composite. Mouth a lion (Babylonian empire), the torso a leopard (Greek Empire), the feet a bear Medes/Persian). The heads (and horns) are specific to the beast, the fourth empire.
End Quote

There is no where it says the heads are specific to that beast. In Daniel 7 the Fourth Kingdom (Rome) has one head not seven. When you combine all four Beasts in Daniel 7 you get the Beast described here. I understand your desire to make these heads as the same seven heads in Rev 17 but that is not the inference of scripture.

I will say that I have long believed that there could be a dual meaning to these heads.

So let me ask you this these ten horns are they the same ten horns in Daniel 7 and Rev 17?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hi Coffee time,

Ten rulers. The ten king language of the bible just implies rulers. Didn't I reply to you before? Go have a cup . Wake up...

Doug

Please do not distort my nickname and please do not make disparaging remarks about my state of wakefulness.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Doug

Quote
It is the body in Revelation 13 that appears as a composite. Mouth a lion (Babylonian empire), the torso a leopard (Greek Empire), the feet a bear Medes/Persian). The heads (and horns) are specific to the beast, the fourth empire.
End Quote

There is no where it says the heads are specific to that beast.

In Revelation 17 and 12, the body is scarlet (red) colored, not a composite of the animals, and apart from the composite the portrait in those two chapters has the 7 heads and 10 horns.

Since the beast has the 7 heads and 10 horns apart from the composite - those 7 heads and 10 horns are unique to the beast.

In Daniel 7 the Fourth Kingdom (Rome) has one head not seven. When you combine all four Beasts in Daniel 7 you get the Beast described here. I understand your desire to make these heads as the same seven heads in Rev 17 but that is not the inference of scripture.

What? You are saying that the seven heads and ten horns in Revelation 17, 12, 13 are not the same seven heads and ten horns, throughout?

The only difference is the changing of the crowns on the seven heads and ten horns, between the Chapters. And that in one Chapter, one of the heads has been mortally wounded and recovered.

I am not applying the head of the lion, heads of the leopard, head of the bear anywhere to the Revelation beast. He has seven heads specific to him, the fourth empire.

It is only in Revelation 13 that the beast has a composite body. The heads are not composite.

I hope the following reconciles our differences:

One of the seven heads is the one head of the beast like in Daniel 7. An additional 6 heads had grown out of the beast since Daniel 7. Those are the 6 former Julio-Claudians, Nero was the sixth.

My visualization is a beast with one large head in Daniel 7 with ten horns. He has only the one large head in Daniel 7, with ten horns on his head (presumed).

In Revelation, the beast still has the one large head, but with 6 other lesser heads. The ten horns, in Revelation to be consistent with Daniel 7 would be on the one large head. So I will retract what I said about the horns possibly being on the spine.

The mouth of a lion would be on the one large head. Make sense to you?

The wounded and recovered head has to be that one large head - which in Daniel 7 that single head is the little horn Antichrist. Albeit that little horn grows out of the head.

So let me ask you this these ten horns are they the same ten horns in Daniel 7 and Rev 17?

Yes.

Doug

 

[Douggg]

Please do not distort my nickname and please do not make disparaging remarks about my state of wakefulness.

I apologize.

Doug

 

[n2thelight]

Just a few days ago, it caught my attention, the Italian PM Letta called for an United States of Europe, which is a European federal government with a directly elected leader from the people. When that comes to pass, and there are ten kings making up that government - as well; the directly elected leader could be the Antichrist.

Will the Europeans unwittingly elect the Antichrist to power? I think it is a good possibility.

Doug

Anti christ will be satan himself,not a flesh man possesed by him.....

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 8:

Rome did not begin as two rival kingdoms one north and one south of Israel [two Iron legs]

The two iron legs in Daniel 2:33 could represent how the ancient Roman Empire eventually split into two parts: Western and Eastern (i.e. Byzantine). The territory of the latter was eventually conquered by the (Islamic) Ottoman Empire.

Time Watcher said in post 8:

This setting is still to come .... a continuation of the ancient Seleucid and Ptolemaic rulers just before the first century [brass thighs]

Daniel 2's image isn't meant to be interpreted as indicating the location of all its parts/empires in relation to Israel. It's only meant to indicate a relative progression in time, from one empire to the next, beginning with its head (Babylon) and moving down through time to its 10 toes (the future empire of the Antichrist).

The image's thighs of brass indeed represented ancient Greece's Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms, which were north and south of Israel. But if the image is thought of as standing astride Israel, the relative positions of its other parts/empires wouldn't match their relative locations in relation to Israel. For the image's two arms of silver represented the ancient Medes and the Persians, both of whose homelands were located east of Israel, not further north and south from Israel than the Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms, like the image's arms would be further north and south from Israel than its thighs.

Also, while the image's two iron legs represented the ancient Roman empire, which did include the Middle East, land both north and south of Israel, the ancient Roman empire wasn't limited to the Middle East, but also included Western Europe and North Africa, which are also north and south of Israel, in latitude. Similarly, the Persian empire (the silver part of the image) wasn't limited to the Middle East, but included a part of Europe (Thrace) and North Africa (Libya). And the Greek empire per se wasn't limited to the Middle East, but included a part of Europe (Greece and parts of the Balkans) and North Africa (a part of eastern Libya).

Also, even if the image is thought of instead as laying across a map of the Middle East, with its head toward the east, if its thighs were laying north and south of Israel, then the relative positions of its other parts/empires still wouldn't match their relative locations in relation to Israel. For the image's head (Babylon) would then be further east from Israel than the image's chest (Medo-Persia), which of course isn't the case. For Medo-Persia was further east from Israel than Babylon. And how could the image's chest be above its head? But the image's iron legs (Rome) would correctly lie west of the Middle East, in Europe and North Africa, and the image's 10 toes (the future empire of the Antichrist) would correctly be on both the north and south sides of the Mediterranean, and so on both the north and south sides of Israel, in latitude. But the Antichrist's empire will also include the Middle East, just as all the image's former empires, including the Roman empire (iron legs), included the Middle East.

*******

Time Watcher said in post 18:

The hole is one that you yourself missed until recently that the beast is not a human ....

"Beasts" can refer figuratively to humans (Titus 1:12). Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8) when it's referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast, commonly called the Antichrist, the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Luciferian miracles (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), whereas at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

--

A 2nd aspect of Revelation's beast is that it's a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who's now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future tribulation to spiritually empower the empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a 3rd aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. This fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan had assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan had assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future tribulation, they will cause an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).

 

[Bible2]

John S said in post 10:

The AC will most definitely NOT be Islamic.

That's right.

The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, whereas the Antichrist will say that he's God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), whereas the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a (secretly apostate) pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

 

[John S]

Bible2 - IF St. Malachi's prediction that the current Pope is the last Pope is true, then this Pope MIGHT be the false prophet. I will be keeping my eyes open. If there is another Pope then his prediction was wrong.
For the first 3 and a half years, the AC and the FP will be seen as "good guys" - bringing peace to the world, solving all of the world's problems, etc. Then the AC's assassination and resurrection will change all that. ONLY God will be able to do that - and he will proclaim himself to be God.
As I said, I am looking for a man from Italy - but we'll see.
Far too many people believe that the AC will be Islamic.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Doug


Quote
In Revelation 17 and 12, the body is scarlet (red) colored, not a composite of the animals, and apart from the composite the portrait in those two chapters has the 7 heads and 10 horns.
End Quote

So you really think there is NOT a reason for one to be called red and the other scarlet?

These two are not the same. The Devil in Rev 12 has no rider, no one controls it and directs it where to go.

The Beast in Rev 17 is ridden by the woman (false religion) This false religion directs this kingdom, it controls it.

Quote
The only difference is the changing of the crowns on the seven heads and ten horns, between the Chapters. And that in one Chapter, one of the heads has been mortally wounded and recovered.
End Quote

That is not true at all........ the Name of Blasphemy shifts and that is one of the things you are missing.

The Ten horns in Rev 17 are not the same as the Ten horns in Daniel 7. In Daniel 7 three horns are overthrown in Rev 17 the ten horns WILLINGLY give their power up.

I would say it is far more likely that the 7 horns not overthrown in Daniel 7, the seven horns who are subservient to the little horn, are the same as the Seven Heads of Rev 17.

You seem to be missing a key point of the Beast in Rev 17. There are seven Kingdoms or peaks of power and then at the end the seventh head of this Kingdom is made up of 10 kings.

This Beast is totally different then Daniel 7 and Rev 13 or 12 Because it is controlled by a False Religion. That is why it is explained in a different section....Because it is different.

Look at just what happens in Daniel 7: there is a fourth Kingdom (rome) out of it comes 10 kingdoms Three Kingdoms are over thrown by the Little Horn which then rules over the other seven. These seven remaining Kingdoms dominated by the little Horn make a new kingdom that is explained in Rev 17:

I might Agree the woman in Rev 17 is the Catholic Church and if that is the Case there can be no doubt that the Kingdom she controls is the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[Time Watcher]

"The sixth king was ruling at the time of John"


This is where your view goes off track Doug, and B2 does a varient of the same] .... your view will only cause confusion for you and others who do the same

Abaddon was in the abyss during the Roman era .... he went there after his rule over the larger northern Middle Eastern kingdom of the Seleucid dynasty of kings [Daniel 11:4-35]

Rome is not even in the visions of any Bible prophet .... this ancient empire existed in the breach of the visions between the ending of the 69th week of the 70 weeks of years decreed for Israel .... and the beginning of the 70th which has not come

Rome is recorded in the NT as a matter of the historical record, but this first century record is not a vision of the future time of the end, and 70 AD is not recorded in any of the prophets visions

The visions are silent of any unfulfilled prophecy during the period of the last 2000 years and all jump to the time of the end of this present age of the Lord's grace .... then will the balance of the visions begin to roll .... but not before

You can find this breach of silence in all of the prophets ..... where the line is drawn

I keep telling you about this, but your Roman fixation has prevented you from looking at the actual track of Abaddon's rule and influence over the 7 human kingdoms and related human king position of each

All had a number of kings, but it is the "position" of the king related to the kingdom that is noted.... and all of them are Middle Eastern kingdoms [not western, far eastern, far northern]

At the time of the end Abaddon's involvement will resume when he is released from the abyss

He cannot interact with humanity while in this angel prison and must be released to rule over the Middle East again .... and he will rule his 6th and 7th via the little horn of Daniel's visions and with 10 other kings in the region

The major difference during the coming 70th week will be his incarnation of the little horn [this supernatural act was not allowed during his past 5 kingdoms] .... the Lord will remove His restraint against Satan and Abaddon, and this manifestation will be allowed [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12]

You will never get the kinks straightened out of your current view until you discover the above overview of Satan, Abaddon, the human little horn and the 7 kingdoms of the Middle East .... the idea of a future Roman kingdom centered in Europe ruled by Abaddon in the little horn and 10 other human kings is not the correct interpretation of the prophecies

When the Lord projected the coming 70th week [same the time of "Jacob's trouble"] .... He does the same thing as His prophets and picks up on their end time views adding more details of His progressive revelation ... He then reveals more details of the same exact end time setting in His visions recorded in the book of Revelation

A political European and Pope/RCC centered Rome is not a part of this scope, ancient or future

This idea was hatched by the reformation preachers and later reconstruction movements of the 1800s .... this is where things went off track because the same had proprietary ambitions of exclusivity and wanted to make the prophecies relevant to their own movements .... so they forced the visions to fit their agendas

Even before the reformation the RCC created a variant form of proprietary ambition .... the early "fathers" decided to make the "church" "God's kingdom' on the earth ruled by men ... and this is still the off course walk of their apostasy today

If you will study some of these movements of men, you can see what they did and why .... and there are those today who still do the same thing by basing their knowledge upon their past mentors

In conclusion, all of the "heads" [kingdoms] of the beast presented within the scope of the visions of the Bible prophets are Middle Eastern oriented with Israel at the center, past and future

And Abaddon in the human little horn will rise in the same exact region .... which is still populated by the descendants of various indigenous peoples who settle there after the flood

The same are primarily all Muslim today .... Abaddon knows this and his mentor has already invaded the culture in preparation for his coming time on the earth to rule the Middle East and the world

'Allah" is an imaginary pagan "god" that does not even exist and is nothing but a cover for the devil .... Satan is setting the stage at this time under the cover of the one that the Adherents of Islam consider to be "god"

There is no "god" but "Allah" they chant and Mohammed is his prophet

Wrong .... there is no God but the God of the Bible and Jesus is His Prophet

 

[Douggg]

Hi Doug


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In Revelation 17 and 12, the body is scarlet (red) colored, not a composite of the animals, and apart from the composite the portrait in those two chapters has the 7 heads and 10 horns.
End Quote

So you really think there is NOT a reason for one to be called red and the other scarlet?

These two are not the same. The Devil in Rev 12 has no rider, no one controls it and directs it where to go.

The Beast in Rev 17 is ridden by the woman (false religion) This false religion directs this kingdom, it controls it.

I don't see anywhere in Revelation that says the woman directs the beast or controls the beast. She is riding the beast. It is like the expression of riding someone's coat-tails. She is just benefiting from the beast.

Assuming she is the Vatican and the RCC, she is a harlot because she has mixed Christianity with religions that grew out of Mystery Bablyon the Great - which the origin of those religons stemmed from Nimrod as the beast.

Abaddon is not even mentioned in the old testament, nor is connected with the Tower of Babel. Nimrod is.

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The only difference is the changing of the crowns on the seven heads and ten horns, between the Chapters. And that in one Chapter, one of the heads has been mortally wounded and recovered.
End Quote

That is not true at all........ the Name of Blasphemy shifts and that is one of the things you are missing.

Okay, that is information found in Revelation 13, and not the other two chapters. The ten heads and 7 horns is the constant.

The Ten horns in Rev 17 are not the same as the Ten horns in Daniel 7. In Daniel 7 three horns are overthrown in Rev 17 the ten horns WILLINGLY give their power up.

In Daniel 7, I agree that three of the original horns will be removed by the little horn and replaced. But within Revelation the ten kings which are all end times kings is the same in Revelation 12, 13. In Revelation 17, they had not come to power at the time of John, 1st century.

I would say it is far more likely that the 7 horns not overthrown in Daniel 7, the seven horns who are subservient to the little horn, are the same as the Seven Heads of Rev 17.

Can we call those 7 horns - "untouched" ? Just to keep straight what we are talking about?

We can't go exchanging the untouched 7 horns in Daniel 7 with the seven heads in Revelation - because the seven heads in Revelation are sequential kings, one following the other, and six are definitely historic. The ten kings are concurrent ruling end times of one kingdom.

7 heads Revelation - Sequential, 1 head was future to John time the 7th.
10 horns Revelation and Daniel 7 - concurrent all end times.

The little horn in Daniel 7 does equate to the 1 head future of John time the 7th.

You seem to be missing a key point of the Beast in Rev 17. There are seven Kingdoms or peaks of power and then at the end the seventh head of this Kingdom is made up of 10 kings.

I am disagreeing with the seven kingdoms theory, because it says kings, not kingdoms in Revelation 17, and there are only four kingdoms in both Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. And the little horn comes out of the fourth kingdom, as do the ten kings.

Again, the only place in Revelation of the dualistic representation is that of the beast in Revelation 13. None of the horns in Daniel 7 are said to be kingdoms, but kings. None of the heads in Revelation 17, 12, 13 are said to be kingdoms, but kings. None of the horns in Daniel 7 and Revelation 17, 12, 13 are said to be kingdoms, but kings.

This Beast is totally different then Daniel 7 and Rev 13 or 12 Because it is controlled by a False Religion. That is why it is explained in a different section....Because it is different.

The beast controls the world, not vice versa. The beast is going to ultimately be the reason the woman is destroyed.

Look at just what happens in Daniel 7: there is a fourth Kingdom (rome) out of it comes 10 kingdoms Three Kingdoms are over thrown by the Little Horn which then rules over the other seven. These seven remaining Kingdoms dominated by the little Horn make a new kingdom that is explained in Rev 17:

There are not ten kingdoms come out of the fourth kingdom. The text says the ten horns are ten kings that come out of fourth kingdom. There is not a new kingdom of the ten kings in revelation 17 - I don't know where you are getting a new kingdom from. The ten kings in Daniel 7 are of fourth kingdom. And the ten kings of Revelation are of the fourth kingdom. It says in Revelation 17:17, their kingdom - singular.

I might Agree the woman in Rev 17 is the Catholic Church and if that is the Case there can be no doubt that the Kingdom she controls is the Holy Roman Empire.[/quote]

The Vatican and the RCC have had influence with the kings of the earth over the long haul. The Holy Roman Empire was ended by Napoleon. de-facto though the Vatican had held sway with the European politicians right up this very second - in a mutual benefit relationship. I would not say that one "controls" the other, however.

Doug