The True Church

[stephen583]

The reason why it's popular is it gives "christians" a false sense that they will have a second chance to get right with God... the same camp that believe we will be sinning till Christ comes.

I think the Pre-Trib doctrine appeals to most people on a very basic human level. People need to feel safe, no matter how dangerous the situation is, otherwise they lose control and their bodies and mind begin to shut down. As a law enforcement officer, I was in several gun fights. You can believe you are going to survive and your training kicks in, or you can panic (human instinct) and your body takes control. I'm sure anyone who has experienced military combat will agree with that statement.

Fear naturally causes the body to produce "adrenaline", which makes you pro-active and aggressive. The adrenaline rush literally makes you want to "rush" forward and attack. A bad idea in a gunfight, because the guy who leaves cover first, is generally the guy who gets shot. Next, your body begins to reallocate resources. Your ocular senses become focused straight ahead on the danger, and you lose your peripheral vision, called "tunnel vision". It's like looking through a cardboard toilet paper tube, or a rifle scope.

After that, your sense of hearing goes, and all you can hear is your heart pounding in your chest and the blood pumping through your head. You've completely lost any "situational awareness" of what is going on around you. It is a very frightening and debilitating condition, that no one in their right mind wants to experience.

So telling people they are "safe" appeals to us on a very basic human level. The idea is so appealing (considering the horrible alternative), they may even irrationally blind themselves to the real danger. I can't tell you how many crime victims admitted afterwards they knew beforehand they were in danger, but they ignored the signs. I saw this as well, when I later became a fireman. Hiding under a bed, in a closet, or barricading yourself in a room, won't save you from dying in a house fire.

Standing upright and running through smoke and breathing it in faster, is also a really bad idea, but that's exactly what most people instinctively try to do. Smoke can fill a room and descend to the floor in a matter of seconds. The smart thing to do, is stay low, cover your mouth and nose, and move fast and get out of there.

I was also amazed at the number of people, who having escaped a fire, would run back inside to retrieve their property and belongings. Pretty irrational, huh ?!

I guess what I'm saying is, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine seems a bit too "appealing and convenient" from a human standpoint and caters too much to our natural aversion to danger and fear to suit me. It seems contrived and sounds like a lot of "snake oil".

I prefer to go through the Tribulation Period confident in my spiritual training, in control of my senses and with my eyes wide open, so I am able to recognize the danger, and make sensible decisions so I can escape it.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Amen Stephen... thanx for the testimony.

 

[stephen583]

If there was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture (and that's very doubtful), I think everybody would show up for church the following Sunday, look around in absolute horror and realize, everyone who was there last Sunday.. is there today as well. Sort of like what happened in 1988 when every (Christian ?) believed the Rapture was imminent, and nothing ever happened.

I remember those days very well. Tele-evangelists warning about the immediacy of the Rapture. People driving around in cars with bumper stickers announcing to other motorists, "Warning, The driver of this vehicle is a Christian and might disappear at any moment". Christians wondering what would become of unpiloted commercial airplanes, or hospitals when doctors and nurses suddenly disappeared. Everyone was absolutely convinced the Rapture would take place in 1988 just as advertised. And what happened ???

Nothing happened. It was just like uncorking a flat bottle of champagne on New Years Eve with no "Pop" and the cork noiselessly and sadly falling to the floor. But there is always another salesman coming along down the road with plenty of "snake oil" to peddle.

Enter Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins (1995-2015) with a series of 16 books and two Hollywood movies to rehabilitate the Pre-Trib Rapture movement. Even LaHaye admits the books and movies are works of fiction, yet despite this disclaimer, (Christians ?) accept them as the Gospel any ways. You'd think people would have more sense than to be conned twice, by the same nonsense, but you'd be wrong. Response to the deception is phenomenal. It's even greater and more pervasive than it was in 1988.

 

[Armoured]

Sort of like what happened in 1988 when every (Christian ?) believed the Rapture was imminent,

Every Christian believed this? I never got the memo...

 

[Berean777]

If there was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture (and that's very doubtful), I think everybody would show up for church the following Sunday, look around in absolute horror and realize, everyone who was there last Sunday.. is there today as well. Sort of like what happened in 1988 when every (Christian ?) believed the Rapture was imminent, and nothing ever happened.

I remember those days very well. Tele-evangelists warning about the immediacy of the Rapture. People driving around in cars with bumper stickers announcing to other motorists, "Warning, The driver of this vehicle is a Christian and might disappear at any moment". Christians wondering what would become of unpiloted commercial airplanes, or hospitals when doctors and nurses suddenly disappeared. Everyone was absolutely convinced the Rapture would take place in 1988 just as advertised. And what happened ???

Nothing happened. It was just like uncorking a flat bottle of champagne on New Years Eve with no "Pop" and the cork noiselessly and sadly falling to the floor. But there is always another salesman coming along down the road with plenty of "snake oil" to peddle.

Enter Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins (1995-2015) with a series of 16 books and two Hollywood movies to rehabilitate the Pre-Trib Rapture movement. Even LaHaye admits the books and movies are works of fiction, yet despite this disclaimer, (Christians ?) accept them as the Gospel any ways. You'd think people would have more sense than to be conned twice, by the same nonsense, but you'd be wrong. Response to the deception is phenomenal. It's even greater and more pervasive than it was in 1988.

The only rapture that humanity has ever known is when they sign out with their own blood, meaning they drink from the bitter cup called death. Escapism is a mental disorder that plagues those not ready for self sacrifice. Agape love is all about self sacrifice and Christianity that peddles the rapture doctrine has lost touch with what it means to die for your Lord.

I remember a vision given to me of a dreadful scenario, as if I was really there, where it was pitch black darkness, that I couldn't see my hands when I planted them directly on my face. The clouds so thick that rain was pounding our heads and our feet were slouching around in sticky mud to our ankles. The smell of death was everywhere. The leader who was on top of the mountain yelled out, hit them, hit them, then barrages of canon fire streamed at the foot of the mountain and interrupted the pitch black darkness from the flashes coming out of the muzzles of the canons. Then the enemy at the foothill responded with a barrage of fire and this continued without relent. Then the leader yelled out repeatedly die for your Lord, die for your Lord. Then as he looked up in despair whilst prostrated on his knees, the pitch black night was interrupted by a brilliant flash that changed reality forever. Those at the foot of the mountain where no where to be found and the ones at the top of the mountain were translated to a reality that had no Sun, rather every point sparkled like a jewel.

Most people will die, the end game scenario is that everyone dies and those last men standing on the top of the mountain are not really living, for they wish that they were dead, but death alludes them. People should in this short life prepare themselves to be received by the Lord and embrace death at its appointed time as it has been the case for billions before them. What makes one think that they can escape pain and claim to be for Christ is beyond belief. Jesus said your will drink from my bitter cup called death.

Hebrews 9 where the blood covenant requires the death of the testator/witness in order to receive your eternal inheritance. Blood for blood, for all who are grafted into the blood covenant with Christ must sign out with their own blood, for there is no escapism in this regard.

 

[stephen583]

Every Christian believed this? I never got the memo...

If you didn't get the memo... you're the only one who claims he didn't get one.

 

[keltoi]

If you didn't get the memo... you're the only one who claims he didn't get one.

Well no, that's not true.

 

[stephen583]

Well no, that's not true.

Absolutely that's TRUE. The belief in a Rapture in 1988 was global and universal. Of course many things people believe are simply not true and amount to pure nonsense. Everyone enjoys a good fairy tale, or camp fire story once in a while, especially if it contains more embellishments than facts. So feel free to exercise some historical revisionism in your story.

Paul Revere never rode through the thirteen colonies announcing "The British are Coming". Revere only rode from the port to the town of Boston.. A man named Benjamin Israel rode the rest of the way. The greatest American general in history, George Washington lost 3 out of 4 major engagements, and wouldn't have won the last one at Yorktown if the French navy hadn't shown up. No one jumped out of a window in the 1930's New York stock market crash, (check the newspaper accounts at the time). Lemmings won't naturally follow each other over a cliff edge to their death. That bogus and now notorious picture was faked by a photographer who was paid by the National Geographic Society for the picture. The photographer hired the local natives to set fire to the grass and stampede the animals over the cliff edge. There never were any WMD's in Iraq, and there are no monuments on Mars constructed by an ancient alien civilization. There are plenty of examples of wind blown rock here on Earth that resemble sculptures of human faces and human figures.


But If you want to try and convince everyone that everybody wasn't expecting the Rapture in 1988, well I guess that's your version of (reality ?), isn't it ?!

 

[keltoi]

Absolutely that's TRUE. The belief in a Rapture in 1988 was global and universal. Of course many things people believe are simply not true and amount to pure nonsense. Everyone enjoys a good fairy tale, or camp fire story once in a while, especially if it contains more embellishments than facts. So feel free to exercise some historical revisionism in your story.

Paul Revere never rode through the thirteen colonies announcing "The British are Coming". Revere only rode from the port to the town of Boston.. A man named Benjamin Israel rode the rest of the way. The greatest American general in history, George Washington lost 3 out of 4 major engagements, and wouldn't have won the last one at Yorktown if the French navy hadn't shown up. No one jumped out of a window in the 1930's New York stock market crash, (check the newspaper accounts at the time). Lemmings won't naturally follow each other over a cliff edge to their death. That bogus and now notorious picture was faked by a photographer who was paid by the National Geographic Society for the picture. The photographer hired the local natives to set fire to the grass and stampede the animals over the cliff edge. There never were any WMD's in Iraq, and there are no monuments on Mars constructed by an ancient alien civilization. There are plenty of examples of wind blown rock here on Earth that resemble sculptures of human faces and human figures.


But If you want to try and convince everyone that everybody wasn't expecting the Rapture in 1988, well I guess that's your version of (reality ?), isn't it ?!

When you post something like this

If there was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture (and that's very doubtful), I think everybody would show up for church the following Sunday, look around in absolute horror and realize, everyone who was there last Sunday.. is there today as well. Sort of like what happened in 1988 when every (Christian ?) believed the Rapture was imminent, and nothing ever happened.

you are making a blanket statement and you will be expected to back it up. So I suggest you ask the approximately many hundreds of millions of (self acknowledged) Christians to see if they believed the rapture would happen in 1988. I certainly didn't and I remember 1988 really well because it was the 200 year anniversary of the foundation of modern Australia.

Your entire 2nd paragraph is off topic and indicates you have an issue with people who are somewhat gullible. Just because you have this issue doesn't mean you have to say everyone believed something.

 

[Job8]

I guess what I'm saying is, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine seems a bit too "appealing and convenient" from a human standpoint and caters too much to our natural aversion to danger and fear to suit me. It seems contrived and sounds like a lot of "snake oil".

Whatever it is subjectively, it is taught objectively in Scripture. Since you yourself are being subjective ('a lot of "snake oil"') I guess we should simply dispense with the objective truth. The Rapture has absolutely to relation to the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation, but it is a biblical truth that one day there will be a Resurrection/Rapture of the saints.

 

[Albion]

but it is a biblical truth that one day there will be a Resurrection/Rapture of the saints.

Those aren't different names for the same idea.

 

[Job8]

Those aren't different names for the same idea.

No. The resurrection of the saints who died, and the rapture of those who are alive is simultaneous.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No. The resurrection of the saints who died, and the rapture of those who are alive is simultaneous.

Give me "Rapture" or give me death!

1 thess 4:
16 That the Lord himself in a shout-of-command, in voice of a chief-messenger and in trump of God, shall be descending from heaven,
and the dead-ones in Christ shall be resurrecting first,
17 thereafter we, the-ones living, the-ones surviving, same time together to them shall be being snatched-away/arpaghsomeqa <726> (5691) in clouds into meeting of the Lord into air/aera <109>,
and thus always together with Lord we shall be;

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/just-heard.7540925/#post-56897035

A Rapture codicil for Last Will and Testament « Heaven Awaits

For a long time, I enjoyed thinking about the Rapture, and if it were true, and when it might happen, if true. But I had never put too much thought into what would happened to those left behind to people I cared about, if there was a rapture and I was in it.

So what I am doing now is updating my Last Will and Testament, and including a codicil to the Will which addresses the Rapture.
Most wills being executed are based on a person's death, not their disappearance.........................................


...................................

.

 

[stephen583]

But I had never put too much thought into what would happened to those left behind to people I cared about, if there was a rapture and I was in it.

I can tell you what will happen to those who are left behind. Immediately, at the Battle of Armageddon many of the forces arrayed against God, (some of them ostensibly Christian), will be annihilated by a shower of thousands of hail stones weighing over two tons each. Travelling towards earth in proportion to their weight, gravity and terminal velocity speed, each of these massive hail stones will hit the ground with the impact of a 155 mm howitzer shell. Infantry, armored units and artillery will be thrown hundreds of feet into the air. Aircraft flying into the maelstrom, will be obliterated and swept from the skies.

Notice I said there will be Cristians present at the Battle of Armageddon fighting against God. Of course these won't be real Christians. They will be that portion of Christianity that remained with Babylon throughout the Second Half of the Tribulation Period and did not repent. Ostensibly they will be identified as Christians, having all the appearance of godliness, but none of the ppwer thereof. They will have taken the Mark of the Beast and will be led to Armageddon by the "False Prophet" Antichrist where they will all DIE.

Ironically, in the vision I saw, the muslim forces broke and ran at the appearance of Christ first, while the fake-Christians pretty much died manning their guns.

Everyone else who survives the Wrath of God and lives through the Second Half of the Tribulation Period, will again be given the opportunity to "repent" before the Final Judgment occurs. Refusal to repent at this stage will result in instantaneous judgment and punishment at the Hand of God. The days of prophetic "warnings" and the "forbearance" of God against violence and iniquity, are at an end. As Genesis says, the spirit of God will not strive with man forever, (Genesis 6:3).


"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plow shares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore" (Isaiah 2:4, KJV).

 

[stephen583]

As far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned, there is ONLY one true Church. Although they are part of the "ecumenical" movement, or "Christian Unity" movement, which began in 1910, the goal of their participation has been to limit their participation into bringing non-Catholic denominations back into the fold, rather than accepting the beliefs of others. Today there are over 300 different denominations of Christianity in America alone.

Within the last 25 years, or so, ecumenism has become less of a Christian movement, and more of a global "all inclusive" spiritual movement. All that is necessary to be a member of ecumenism is a vaguely defined belief in a supreme being. Primitive tribal beliefs, pagan religion, Islam, Ba'haism, Hinduism and Buddhism are all welcome participants in the modern day ecumenical movement. Even the RCC has apparently switched its' position and now recognizes these non-Christian religions as being "equal" to Christianity.

What's next ? Is the ecumenical movement going to accept "Santeria", also known as "Regla De' Ocha" (a religion based on aspects of Roman Catholicism and African voodoo) ?! It is so prevalent throughout the Caribbean, Latin America, Mexico and the United States, the Roman Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations have already turned a blind eye to Santeria practitioners for over a hundred years, virtually accepting them as legitimate members of Christianity.

So the Church body is accepting voodoo practitioners, and basically done away with the necessity of believing in Christ as a prerequisite for being a member of the "Inter-faith" ecumenical movement... And you're asking everyone "Who the REAL Church is ?!... Let me give you a clue. THERE ISN'T ANY REAL CHURCH ANYMORE ! IT NO LONGER EXISTS !!!

 

[com7fy8]

So, this got me to thinking about what God's church would look like in terms of it's "appearance" or the impression it gives. If Christ's life and the lives of the apostles are our examples, lets see how we measure up...

I know it has bothered me for a while now, ministers that wear expensive business suits with nice watches and other bling.. What does that mode of dress represent to me about Christ's character and ministry? I have noticed that in churches where the pastor is a fashion horse, the congregation seems to be concerned with their appearance as well. Is this the message that should be conveyed?

Plus, in evaluating by what people look like and how they act, possibly ones do not look deeper; and so they can be fooled into accepting predators and con artists, even as their pastors. Even higher-up leaders are evaluating candidates for ministry, by if they show what identifies them with a certain religious group, instead of if they meet our qualifications which our Apostle Paul has given us, including 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

And the more highly educated they are can be how more highly educated are their ways of talking their way out of this.

Then there is the robes/gowns/collars etc, worn by some denom's clergy...

What are some of your thoughts on the way we present our "men of God" and our method of worship?

Is it acceptable to wear everyday clothes to worship God or do we have to participate in the fashion show at church?

Well, someone might say I dress casually for church; but I am wearing what is practical for helping. Also, I might dress down a little so anyone less well-dressed won't feel out of place. But there are people who dress up and are ready to take out trash and wash dishes and they will be totally welcoming with anyone who is well-dressed or not. And the same can go for collared people > you can discover that certain ones are not about their outfits, at all.

I have been a prim and proper preppy poopy perfectionist, and the clothes I was wearing had nothing to do with it! >

"be clothed with humility" (in 1 Peter 5:5) >

We can be prideful about having collars on our clerics, and ones can be self-righteous about outwardly staying clear of collars . . . evaluating by what is superficial, while potentially not being able to tell the difference between who to trust and who not to.

THERE ISN'T ANY REAL CHURCH ANYMORE ! IT NO LONGER EXISTS !!!

I would say there is no outward show which means that group is the real church.

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

One one hand, I disapprove of the styles lots of clergy wear whether it is an expensive suit or an elegant robe and vestry as I think they can come across as arrogant and not humble. I kinda feel the same about the church aesthetics.

On the other hand, God does appreciate beautiful things. I think the Catholics and Orthodox are correct in this area.

I personally think there should be a balance between the showiness of churches and clergy and the simplicity and humility of Christ.

 

[Open Heart]

What are some of your thoughts on the way we present our "men of God" and our method of worship? Is it acceptable to wear everyday clothes to worship God or do we have to participate in the fashion show at church?

It seems to me that you are the one that is being judgmental, putting down people who try to dress their best for their King, insinuating their motives are to have a fashion show rather than to show respect for God.

And what does this have to do with finding the True Church? Absolutely nothing.

 

[Open Heart]

Everyone was absolutely convinced the Rapture would take place in 1988 just as advertised.

You lived in a small world. I was a Christian in 1988, and not only did I not believe the rapture was imminent, I didn't believe there would be a rapture at all. Here's some news for you: not all Christians are dispensationalists.

 

[Open Heart]

THERE ISN'T ANY REAL CHURCH ANYMORE ! IT NO LONGER EXISTS !!!

Apparently you believe that Jesus lied when he said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.