The True Church

[sunlover1]

One could literally do that with any dress attire. If he comes into church in any outfit, he can be judged for his attire

True.
Imagine if people from many countries came to worship Jesus, dressed in their local
garb. Sounds absolutely lovely to me! And then if all of their ministers lined up in front
of the 'congregation', and began to lead us in worshiping God!
AHHHH a vision of unity!

 

[sculleywr]

Probably so, but it's much, much harder to be concerned and second-guessing of a Geneva gown (and surplice, let's say) than by the $800 dollar suit a lot of people are thinking about. Or, for that matter, too casual attire on the part of the pastor.

Now, I suppose that this raises the issue of more extensive vestments. Some people will say that an alb, for example, is too showy...and, therefore, a cause of vanity on the priest's part or a distraction to the parishioners. But the idea in all of this was to aim at avoiding the extremes, not that there is an absolute answer about "this attire instead of that attire."

The elder of a church does not have the responsibility to control people's reaction to his attire. He wouldn't show up if he was worried about people judging his attire, because, as I said, every outfit can be judged by people whose hearts aren't in the right place.

 

[prodromos]

I don't have a problem with the garb as long as it's not symbolic of paganism or something like that.

You apparently have something in mind. Do you care to share it?

 

[Berean777]

There has been a lot of talk on these forums as to who/what constitutes the true Church of Christ... some say the mother Church because of her age and supposed apostolic connection. Others say God's people, wherever they are found. Some say the Protestants, the Orthodox, the Catholic, the Mormons (actually, not many say this).

So, this got me to thinking about what God's church would look like in terms of it's "appearance" or the impression it gives. If Christ's life and the lives of the apostles are our examples, lets see how we measure up...

I know it has bothered me for a while now, ministers that wear expensive business suits with nice watches and other bling.. What does that mode of dress represent to me about Christ's character and ministry? I have noticed that in churches where the pastor is a fashion horse, the congregation seems to be concerned with their appearance as well. Is this the message that should be conveyed?

Then there is the robes/gowns/collars etc, worn by some denom's clergy... while this better differentiates the laity from the officers of the church, is this what Jesus and the disciples gave by way of example? Is this an attempt to copy the religious garments that the Jewish priests were commanded to wear? The garments that Christ now wears as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary? Are we saying that Christ's priesthood is not sufficient and must be replicated on earth. What about the admonition that we (men) are priests of our homes? Are we expected to wear special clothing for this role? Where does the pomp and pageantry of some churches come from? Did Jesus teach us these things?

What are some of your thoughts on the way we present our "men of God" and our method of worship? Is it acceptable to wear everyday clothes to worship God or do we have to participate in the fashion show at church?

One must wear clothes that respect the venue that they are invited to. You do not turn up to a wedding in thongs and a tea shirt or in a bra and g strings showing. In other words a fashion statement can go either way, that is being overdressed or being underdressed, which seems more the norm of today. It seems that no one comes with clothing like John the Baptist that would belittle themselves in a humble way, as to show down troddeness.

How we present ourselves is a key aspect of our hearts focus, that is, if we are showing outer beauty and making ourselves the focus of attention, then we most certainly are not following in the footsteps of the disciples of Christ.

So what do we do?

We must fit in with the norm of the congregation, as to not be the attention centrepiece of others to look and to frown upon, that is, we must take a low key and a conformance attitude to dress code.

 

[sculleywr]

One must wear clothes that respect the venue that they are invited to. You do not turn up to a wedding in thongs and a tea shirt or in a bra and g strings showing. In other words a fashion statement can go either way, that is being overdressed or being underdressed, which seems more the norm of today. It seems that no one comes with clothing like John the Baptist that would belittle themselves in a humble way, as to show down troddeness.

How we present ourselves is a key aspect of our hearts focus, that is, if we are showing outer beauty and making ourselves the focus of attention, then we most certainly are not following in the footsteps of the disciples of Christ.

So what do we do?

We must fit in with the norm of the congregation, as to not be the attention centrepiece of others to look and to frown upon, that is, we must take a low key and a conformance attitude to dress code.

I love this. And we should also endeavor, when dealing with churches that come from different cultures, to not judge those in them, either clergy or parishioners. There are usually meanings to those vestments, especially in Orthodox churches, where literally every piece of clothing is put on after a prayer and psalm reminding the elder of parts of his responsibility. And the clergy are more than willing to explain the meanings behind each article they wear. My presbyter took great joy in explaining the meanings.

 

[sunlover1]

You apparently have something in mind. Do you care to share it?

I have nothing in mind.
To clarify, I have no problem with any type of clothing worn by anyone, whether in the pulpit,
in the pews or in the choir etc. as long as it's not .. evil.. ?? (Including trashy like seductive..)
We're there to worship and celebrate Christ, we should put on CHRIST! Easy peasy.
It's my understanding that God doesn't look at the outer.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There has been a lot of talk on these forums as to who/what constitutes the true Church of Christ... some say the mother Church because of her age and supposed apostolic connection. Others say God's people, wherever they are found. Some say the Protestants, the Orthodox, the Catholic, the Mormons (actually, not many say this)...................

I know it has bothered me for a while now, ministers that wear expensive business suits with nice watches and other bling.. What does that mode of dress represent to me about Christ's character and ministry? I have noticed that in churches where the pastor is a fashion horse, the congregation seems to be concerned with their appearance as well. Is this the message that should be conveyed?

Then there is the robes/gowns/collars etc, worn by some denom's clergy... while this better differentiates the laity from the officers of the church, is this what Jesus and the disciples gave by way of example? Is this an attempt to copy the religious garments that the Jewish priests were commanded to wear? The garments that Christ now wears as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary? Are we saying that Christ's priesthood is not sufficient and must be replicated on earth. What about the admonition that we (men) are priests of our homes? Are we expected to wear special clothing for this role? Where does the pomp and pageantry of some churches come from? Did Jesus teach us these things?

What are some of your thoughts on the way we present our "men of God" and our method of worship? Is it acceptable to wear everyday clothes to worship God or do we have to participate in the fashion show at church?

I have nothing in mind.
To clarify, I have no problem with any type of clothing worn by anyone, whether in the pulpit,
in the pews or in the choir etc. as long as it's not .. evil.. ?? (Including trashy like seductive..)
We're there to worship and celebrate Christ, we should put on CHRIST! Easy peasy.
It's my understanding that God doesn't look at the outer.

Now that is interesting.
Reminds me of the story of the man at the wedding feast in Matt 22.
Just pray you aren't treated like this man that came to the wedding feast in inappropriate wedding attire.

[Never did figure out what kind of clothes he wore to justify being thrown into the "outer darkness"?]

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/matthew-22-and-the-man-not-clothed-for-wedding-feast.7460817/

Matthew 22:
…10 Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
11 "But when the King came in to look over the dinner guests, He saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
12 and He said to him, 'Friend/Comrade! how didst thou come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.…
13 Then the King said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness;
in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'…

http://biblehub.com/matthew/22-12.htm

Pulpit Commentary

Verse 12. - Friend; ἑταῖρε, as Matthew 20:13. It was thus that Christ addressed Judas in the garden (Matthew 26:50). The term here has in it something of distrust and disapprobation. How camest thou in hither?
The question may mean - How couldst thou presume to approach this solemn festival without the indispensable requisite? Or, how couldst thou elude the vigilance of the servants, and enter in this unseemly garb? The former is doubtless the signification of the inquiry.

The contemptuous rejection of propriety is an outrage offered to the majesty of the king, and one worthy of severest punishment. He was speechless; ἐφιμώθη: literally, he was muzzled, tongue tied, as if his mouth were closed with a muzzle (comp. ver. 34; and Luke 4:35).
He could make no reply; he had no excuse to offer. His silence condemned him. It is observed that gags were used for rebellious slaves or criminals on their way to execution (Webst. and Wilk.).


.

 

[stephen583]

because the people wear suits or jeans themselves -- to be distracted by the attire. It gets judged. Is it too expensive a suit? Is it too casual for church? Should he be wearing a tie with that suit? And so on.

Our family was very poor. My dad worked as a carpenter/laborer and my mom stayed at home and raised the kids (circa. 1960's). Christmas was a $5 dollar bill and a trip to the GoodWill Store to buy used toys. Looking back at my 6th grade school picture, I can see now how poor we actually were. I was kid wearing the jeans with the shiny thread bear knees and worn out sneakers in the picture. Those were my combination school clothes and Sunday best.

My mother was devoutly religious and we belonged to the First Baptist Church of Kenner. She made sure when we went to church we were well groomed kids and scrubbed raw, ("hold on and let me see behind those ears, show me your fingernails, where's your comb" ?.. squeaky clean). Naturally I was wearing my school/Sunday only clothes.

One afternoon we were returning home from church in the "rambler" when my Dad announced he had a talk with the pastor (this was serious, and I imagined his leather belt coming off when we got home). He sighed and said in a somber voice, "The pastor said we can't go back to church without better clothes"... My mother was in tears.

He said, "If you want to go, we'll get the money to buy you some proper church clothes, a suit maybe". I was twelve years old then. I thought hard about it for a minute. I thought about all the things our family didn't have, things I knew my folks were saving up for. A 1969 Dodge Dart, a bigger television, a visit to West Texas to see my mother's aging parents, our own home.

In that moment, I realized a couple of things. I would never attend college. I would never drive my own car to high school, and I would start cutting grass in the summer with the lawn mower to earn money. Nor would I ever again attend the First Baptist Church of Kenner, or any other church for that matter. I told my dad, "That's alright".. "Don't worry about it".

That's why to this day, I am a non-clerical, non-denominational Christian. It's not just about the church congregation looking at how the minister is dressed.. It's also about how the congregation looks at each other. Somehow, I don't think a "fashion show" was what Jesus and his disciples had in mind when they established Christianity, but that's what organized religion has become.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

sunlover1 said: ↑
I don't have a problem with the garb as long as it's not symbolic of paganism or something like that.

You apparently have something in mind. Do you care to share it?

Perhaps she is referring to the open mouth fish tha Roman Popes wear?
They also appeared to wear hats the resemembled a 3 layer cake.......pretty spiffy.....

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/mitre/

Mitre

(Heb. mitsnepheth), something rolled round the head; the turban or head-dress of the high priest ( Exodus 28:4 Exodus 28:37 Exodus 28:39 ; 29:6 , etc.). In the Authorized Version of Ezekiel 21:26 , this Hebrew word is rendered "diadem," but in the Revised Version, "mitre." It was a twisted band of fine linen, 8 yards in length, coiled into the form of a cap, and worn on official occasions ( Leviticus 8:9 ; 16:4 ; Zechariah 3:5 ).
On the front of it was a golden plate with the inscription, "Holiness to the Lord." The mitsnepheth differed from the mitre or head-dress (migba'ah) of the common priest. (See BONNET .)

And I said, Let them set a fair MITRE upon his head. So they set a fair MITRE upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by. ( Zechariah 3:5 )

..........

....................

John XXIII borne on the sedia [portable Papal throne] on his formal inauguration:
He was the last Pope to wear the Papal tiara.


.

 

[sculleywr]

[sunlover1 said: ↑
I don't have a problem with the garb as long as it's not symbolic of paganism or something like that.

Perhaps she is referring to the open mouth fish tha Roman Popes wear?
They also appeared to wear hats the resemembled a 3 layer cake.......pretty spiffy.....

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/mitre/

And I said, Let them set a fair MITRE upon his head. So they set a fair MITRE upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by. ( Zechariah 3:5 )





View attachment 173251...............

....................

John XXIII borne on the sedia [portable Papal throne] on his formal inauguration:
He was the last Pope to wear the Papal tiara.


.[/QUOTE]
Which is just hilarious since the similarity is purely physical and isn't intended to resemble a fish, especially a fish from a long dead religion.

 

[sunlover1]

Our family was very poor. My dad worked as a carpenter/laborer and my mom stayed at home and raised the kids (circa. 1960's). Christmas was a $5 dollar bill and a trip to the GoodWill Store to buy used toys. Looking back at my 6th grade school picture, I can see now how poor we actually were. I was kid wearing the jeans with the shiny thread bear knees and worn out sneakers in the picture. Those were my combination school clothes and Sunday best.

My mother was devoutly religious and we belonged to the First Baptist Church of Kenner. She made sure when we went to church we were well groomed kids and scrubbed raw, ("hold on and let me see behind those ears, show me your fingernails, where's your comb" ?.. squeaky clean). Naturally I was wearing my school/Sunday only clothes.

One afternoon we were returning home from church in the "rambler" when my Dad announced he had a talk with the pastor (this was serious, and I imagined his leather belt coming off when we got home). He sighed and said in a somber voice, "The pastor said we can't go back to church without better clothes"... My mother was in tears.

He said, "If you want to go, we'll get the money to buy you some proper church clothes, a suit maybe". I was twelve years old then. I thought hard about it for a minute. I thought about all the things our family didn't have, things I knew my folks were saving up for. A 1969 Dodge Dart, a bigger television, a visit to West Texas to see my mother's aging parents, our own home.

In that moment, I realized a couple of things. I would never attend college. I would never drive my own car to high school, and I would start cutting grass in the summer with the lawn mower to earn money. Nor would I ever again attend the First Baptist Church of Kenner, or any other church for that matter. I told my dad, "That's alright".. "Don't worry about it".

That's why to this day, I am a non-clerical, non-denominational Christian. It's not just about the church congregation looking at how the minister is dressed.. It's also about how the congregation looks at each other. Somehow, I don't think a "fashion show" was what Jesus and his disciples had in mind when they established Christianity, but that's what organized religion has become.

We don't need no stinking badges,, errrr, fancy clothing
Great touching story! Thanks for sharing.
And this is the perfect example of why everyone should
come as they are, be it jeans, shorts, dress or suit.
If God doesn't ask us to wear a certain thing, then
why should we?

 

[keltoi]

May father use to wear his black minister shirt with the white collar tucked into it and a suit. It was, in my opinion, appropriate because people could identify him as the ordained minister simply because his shirt and collar were slightly different to the norm. It wasn't flashy but it was tidy and respectful to the situation. Anytime he wasn't doing official church work, like if we went to go shopping etc. he wore regular clothes. The thing that I really remember is that regardless of what he wore he was always tidy and this showed he had respect for himself as a person but he didn't dress extravagantly in order to make himself appear to be better or more special than anyone else. One word really covers it quite well and that word is humility.

 

[Albion]

Somehow, I don't think a "fashion show" was what Jesus and his disciples had in mind when they established Christianity, but that's what organized religion has become.

I can't say as I blame you, but try not to convict all churches because of what happened at First Baptist. I'm sure that there are others which are similar to it, but there are many which wouldn't operate that way.

 

[Albion]

Perhaps she is referring to the open mouth fish tha Roman Popes wear?

All bishops in the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican churches may wear that headgear (mitre). It may look like a fish to some people who have no clue, but it represents (and looks like) the cloven tongues of fire that were upon the heads of the Apostles when the Holy Spirit came upon them.

Makes perfect sense when you know....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑Perhaps she is referring to the open mouth fish the Roman Popes wear?
They also appeared to wear hats the resemembled a 3 layer cake.......pretty spiffy.....

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/mitre/

="sculleywr, post: 69546728 Which is just hilarious since the similarity is purely physical and isn't intended to resemble a fish, especially a fish from a long dead religion.

Well I won't debate that with you as I was just responding to another member's post garments resembling paganism.

sunlover1 said: ↑
I don't have a problem with the garb as long as it's not symbolic of paganism or something like that.

I will let others take up the "torch" on that.........

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/lb/LB1.htm

According to the Emphatic Diaglott the correct rendering of the latter part of this passage is: "The Book of the Life of the Lamb."
Now, what is meant by this term – THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB? The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12).
The book stores are filled to overflowing today with all types of books dealing with every aspect of earthly life. Even in the church world there are books setting forth every kind of viewpoint relating to God, the Bible, doctrine, Christian experience, and church order.
However the subject material of most of these books largely contains a message of religious tradition and spiritual death. But God is also producing a book – a book containing a message of life. For the past two millenniums God, by His Holy Spirit, has been writing portions of this Book in the minds and hearts of His people.............




.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All bishops in the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican churches may wear that headgear (mitre).
It may look like a fish to some people who have no clue, but it represents (and looks like) the cloven tongues of fire that were upon the heads of the Apostles when the Holy Spirit came upon them.

Makes perfect sense when you know....

You can't be serious............Wherever did you come up with that type of nonsense?


.

 

[sculleywr]

You can't be serious............Wherever did you come up with that type of nonsense?


.

Perhaps it comes from being part of the Anglican Church, which uses that exact mitre which he was speaking of? Seeing as he is a member of the Anglican Church, if we are to assume he did not lie when making his profile, and a learned one at that (despite our disagreements Albion, I can't fault your study and research skills), I will take his explanation of this piece of Anglican wear as accurate. Now I shall go play more Spore

 

[stephen583]

I can't say as I blame you, but try not to convict all churches because of what happened at First Baptist.

Unfortunately Albion, my life experience has made me a most harsh judge. As a sheriff deputy, I arrested and sent lots of men to prison. My testimony in the 22nd Judicial court resulted in several of them being executed. You probably recall the name Robert Willie (played by Shawn Penn in the 1995 movie "Dead Man Walking" with the actress Susan Sarandon playing a nun who tried to save him). I drove Robert Willie and his murderous partner Joe Vaccaro to the State Penitentiary at Angola, where Robert Willie was put to death by lethal injection.

I also survived and lost everything in Hurricane Katrina in 2005, and lived homeless in a tent in the mountains of Colorado and on the rivers and creeks in Arizona for the next ten years. So as far as finding any leniency or mercy goes, I'm afraid you've come to the wrong shop.. I don't have either of those in stock.

I know I will be "judged, as I have judged" (Matthew 7:1-3). No need to remind me. I know what's coming, nevertheless, we are the sum of our experiences, and I am definitely not someone you want to be judged by. Like the comedian Eddie Izzard says, "We have cake or death, and today we're all out of cake, so what's it going to be" ?!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I could be a stumbling block to ANYONE, regardless of what I wore. If I were worried about being a stumbling block because of clothing, I WOULD NOT COME TO CHURCH!

No, it is not vanity to wear the best you have to Church. What makes vanity a sin is not whether or not what you do offends someone, but intent. If a man has nice clothes and wears them because he is going to meet God and wants to present himself in his best clothes when he comes before the King of all creation, that is not vanity. That is a recognition that this is the almighty God we are talking about. I don't wear paint splattered shorts and a ripped up T shirt when I come to Church because that would be bringing my worst before God. I wear a nice button down shirt and the only pair of slacks I own that still fits.

As the laity, I would agree with your statement to a point. We should still be aware of how our actions affect others and selflessly cease any behaviour that is a stumbling to another. But, we are talking about the man at the front, God's man, the shepherd of the flock. If there is responsibility upon us as brethren, how much more the clergy?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Perhaps it comes from being part of the Anglican Church, which uses that exact mitre which he was speaking of?
Seeing as he is a member of the Anglican Church, if we are to assume he did not lie when making his profile, and a learned one at that (despite our disagreements Albion, I can't fault your study and research skills), I will take his explanation of this piece of Anglican wear as accurate.
Now I shall go play more Spore

I was unable to find anything on what kind of headgear Anglican clergy uses. I know the EOC uses similar miters as the old RC Popes did.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/slick-move-by-the-pope-to-attract-anglicans.7411153/
Slick move by the Pope to attract Anglicans

Catholic Church Revises Constitution to Attract Anglicans - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News - FOXNews.com

The Roman Catholic Church made a stunning policy reversal on Tuesday in a move to attract thousands of traditional Anglicans who have become disaffected by a growing acceptance of gays and women priests and bishops.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-would-it-take-for-orthodoxs-to-come-under-pope.5805969/
What would it take for Orthodoxs to come under Pope

Asinner said: ↑
. . . . Or what would it take for the Pope to come back to the Faith where he is "first among equals"?

Although we share 1000 years, we have also been estranged for another 1000. We are very different. You are closer to Catholicism, as a Protestant, than is the Orthodox Church. Your separation is not as wide.

Love,
Christina