THE thread for discussing the future of the S-F - P/C & WoF forums.

[CaDan]

Here it is, folks--the thread for discussing what to do in the future.

1. Please think carefully before you post. Consider that your words may harm people.

2. Please do not rehash old personal battles.

3. Please keep in mind that this thread is for discussing the future.

4. Please keep in mind that Staff does not have answers to every question. One of the goals here is to explore and find potential answers.

s/ CaDan
Administrator, Team Joy

ETA

This thread is to allow members to ask questions about the recent moratorium. We realize that this has come as a shock to many of you, and you need a place to discuss, question and vent about it. We would ask that you do that here, rather than starting further threads about free speech, gagging and so on. This thread is the place to do that without fear of being reported – though we would ask you to respect that freedom and not abuse it. In view of this, other threads on this subject will be closed, and posters redirected here.
The forum mods were unable to answer your questions immediately, as they had no forwarning of this... a fact for which we apologise. I hope that we can remedy this lack of communication here.



To clarify the terms of the Moratorium:



There will now be a period of one month, beginning on April 15th, during which time there will be no discussion or hint of discussion of specifically WoF doctrines

---- This includes any reference or inference to Word of Faith teachers, preachers, pastors, evangelists
---- any staff action including this announcement
---- violations of these ground rules will be reported and dealt with according to the site rules

We very much hope that this will not be a time of repression, but rather of growth, as members can explore their common ground and grow together in Christ.
We are seeking to create a harmonious and encouraging environment both for your members, your guests and for those who come seeking. You will have our prayers and those of the senior staff here and many others.
There are, and always have been, many edifying and uplifting threads in this forum, and we would like to see these given the attention they deserve, rather than being pushed out by endless acrimonious debate of the same issues.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them in this thread. Flaglady has kindly agreed to come back and add the benefit of her experience in helping to answer your questions.

God bless you,
Criada

 

[NewSong]

I would like to see discussion continue. One of the things I would like to see is the main forum left for debate.

I personally consider myself very fortunate to have been a part of CF and thank GOD for this forum and the opportunity to discuss and debate the sides. It is probably the one thing that saved my life that day back in November of 2004.

So, I am asking for this forum to continue to discuss and debate issues that I want to understand better than you won't hear from a pulpit.

 

[TheBloodOfJesus]

As a WoFer I do not feel like I am wanted here. There is a incessant flood of anti-WoF threads. It just never ends. As soon as one dies out another get started, usually by the same three of four people, and it all starts up again. I know of at least 3 long time WoF people who have left altogether, and several more who have cut back to almost nothing.
We get baited... pushed and pushed and pushed... until someone breaks and things get ugly. Then we get blamed and called names.
Someone said that they felt that WoF believers are hated by some here. It really pains me to say this... but I have to agree. It is not just a matter of disgreeing. When disagreement turns to obsessive behavior, then something is wrong.

I say the only thing to stop this is to separate the parties. Move the WoF and the non-WoF forums to equal status with the SF forum and require icons to post. Make a debate forum where no holds are barred.

JMO.

 

[Trish1947]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with the forums setup..our problems don't arise from that. Our problems arise between people. I think what would be a good idea if there was a site opened to teach people how to choose words carefully if your in disagreement to say, that doesn't offend. People can be pretty blunt and personal, and really don't know how to come across or communicate over the internet. If someone does do this frequently instead of reporting them, if the mods are moderating, they get sent to this class. We find this alot in the corporate world, they aren't fired, but something is available to them in the "how toos" of communication. I'm sorry to see that Probinson resigned, he would have been a wonderful teacher of communication.

 

[NewSong]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with the forums setup..our problems don't arise from that. Our problems arise between people. I think what would be a good idea if there was a site opened to teach people how to choose words if your in disagreement to say, that doesn't offend. People can be pretty blunt and personal, and really don't know how to come across or communicate over the internet. If someone does do this frequently instead of reporting them, if the mods are moderating, they get sent to this class. We find this alot in the corporate world, they aren't fired, but something is available to them in the "how toos" of communication. I'm sorry to see that Probinson resigned, he would have been a wonderful teacher of communication.

I agree with you Trish! I didn't even know what flaming was until a few weeks ago. I didn't know what a troll was either. I didn't even know where to find the definitions. Thankfully probinson was able to help me with the information I needed. I think you have a point about a right way and a wrong way to communicate. Part of what happens is frustration and finding the right words to communicate. I know for me, there are certain people I will listen to when I am escalated on this forum and if one of them would send me a PM and let me know to cool down that would help. I sometimes don't see myself as escalating with the threads. I think I am okay just like everyone else.

 

[flaglady]

So what would have been your answer to all the back biting and stuff that was going on?

 

[ARBITER01]

One of the main items of contention in the general section has been the wof belief statement they adopted.

Wof is not a recognized denomination, so they have no formal belief structure to adhere to. This became particularly problematic once the wof believers structured their own set of beliefs in their wiki and posted it. Line item 10 and 11 of their beliefs specifically is the issue for other denominations in the general section, and has been for months now. It brings Jesus's diety directly into question similar to what the LDS and JW's belief statements do.

My suggestion here is to have the wof'ers correct their belief statement so that it falls into alignment with Rhema's belief statement, thereby eliminating the issue for everyone, or if they refuse that, move their subforum into the unorthodox section.

 

[NewSong]

So what would have been your answer to all the back biting and stuff that was going on?

I didn't know there was any going on. I didn't see any. What I did get were PMs from an individual but that has nothing to do with the future of the forum as CaDa suggested the threads should be. I am not sure what you are referring to or even if you were referring to me.

 

[TheBloodOfJesus]

So what would have been your answer to all the back biting and stuff that was going on?

Flag...
Did the mods feel like they were losing control of the forum? If that is the case then perhaps the moratorium was the "act of last resort" to keep things from getting totally out of hand.

 

[churchlady]

Basically what we now have on the SF/P/C forum are two distinct camps.

One leans to the more Arminian view and one leans to the more Calvinist view, although neither camp would own up to those labels.

They are at opposite ends of the pole in how they look at major issues, making them like two different denominations.

I suggest we make two congregation forums instead of one, and do away with the subforums altogether.

People who are drawn to the beliefs of either one, can go there in relative peace.

 

[TheBloodOfJesus]

Basically what we now have on the SF/P/C forum are two distinct camps.

One leans to the more Arminian view and one leans to the more Calvinist view, although neither camp would own up to those labels.

They are at opposite ends of the pole in how they look at major issues, making them like two different denominations.

I suggest we make two congregation forums instead of one, and do away with the subforums altogether.

People who are drawn to the beliefs of either one, can go there in relative peace.

That might work also.
Just as long as the parties are isolated.

 

[Trish1947]

As a WoFer I do not feel like I am wanted here. There is a incessant flood of anti-WoF threads. It just never ends. As soon as one dies out another get started, usually by the same three of four people, and it all starts up again. I know of at least 3 long time WoF people who have left altogether, and several more who have cut back to almost nothing.
We get baited... pushed and pushed and pushed... until someone breaks and things get ugly. Then we get blamed and called names.
Someone said that they felt that WoF believers are hated by some here. It really pains me to say this... but I have to agree. It is not just a matter of disgreeing. When disagreement turns to obsessive behavior, then something is wrong.

I say the only thing to stop this is to separate the parties. Move the WoF and the non-WoF forums to equal status with the SF forum and require icons to post. Make a debate forum where no holds are barred.

JMO.

I think this is true as you say that it usually the same few that sinks the ship..but we should be able to distinguish between those with an agenda, and those that really don't know how to disagree. Those with an anti-Wof agenda, there seems to be no way of stopping it. When you see the same people that are only starting threads to trash those beliefs of WoF over and over are easily recognized.

 

[NewSong]

You know today was one of our better days when we all helped each other get through this on the forum. Most of us were trying to get through this sad loss together. I am glad to see it is mentioned as doctrinal differences and not as a personal thing for either of us. There are clearly doctrinal differences. Yet I want the benefit of both doctrines and so I would like to see us be able to have those discussions that have helped me so much. I really have found more out that I didn't know because of both sides presenting their points of views.

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

While some WoF may feel that they aren't wanted, the same holds true for some non-WoF. The street goes both ways.

Also, to classify between Calvinistic and Armenian views is flawed, as not everyone follows those two lines of thinking. There are those who don't understand those views, and those who disagree with both views. That simply won't work.

If there is no desire for a debate subforum specifically so the two sides can debate the topics (but still stay within the rules), then the only other option, IMO, is to get rid of the SF/PC forum completely and promote the subforums to full congregational forums with their own staff.

In my opinion, the two sides of the argument are like oil and water. They will never mix, and the fiasco in the SF/PC forum is proof of that.

I would much prefer to see a debate subforum, as I have stated in the past, but maybe it is about time to trash what is broken, since no one seems willing to fix it, and keep the troublemakers apart.

 

[Criada]

I hope that it can be stopped by fair and rigorous application of the rules.
There are a few... very few... on both sides of the fence who are determined to create trouble.
However, you have a very good, unbiased team of mods here, who are doing their level best to make this forum work.
It is my hope that a month will be long enough for those few to decide that it is not worth hanging around!

 

[flaglady]

Flag...
Did the mods feel like they were losing control of the forum? If that is the case then perhaps the moratorium was the "act of last resort" to keep things from getting totally out of hand.

I suppose, in some respects that might be so, but the main contention was

a) the mass of reports from people who simply disliked or disagreed with something posted and
b) the proliferation of threads calling another group's beliefs faulted for various reason.

It has to be said, that of late there have been many, many more of such threads calling out one particular group. And they get very heated and sometimes even unpleasant. (I am generalising here so no, I am not going to provide links to illustrate what I mean! )

I just know that when you get the same people posting critical things of another group repeatedly and take no notice of warnings and infractions but keep on doing the same thing and calling it gagging when the mods have ruled. That gets very dispiriting. And yes, in the end, the many do end up paying the price for the behaviour of the few. Gets a bit like when - in my 'young' day - the whole class was kept in after school until the culprit owned up for writing rude things on the blackboard!

 

[Yekcidmij]

Criada,


Unbiased Mods would have enforced rules already in place not silenced all discussion on a subject. That's a dictator's tactict. Not that I think the Staff here is a bunch of dictators - I just think this demonstrates they don't think properly. There could also be some other motives here at work, though that's an assumption I can't make and couldn't prove at this point in time.

Leave the discussion open. St. Paul would roll over IN HIS GRAVE, if he knew what was going on. All those letters to churches about "doctrine" and stuff was probably a waste of his time.....perhaps he should have just agreed with them or just told them to shut up. Perhaps Jesus should have just left the temple courts alone and never talked with the Pharisees and Sadducees.....Yea, .....


You see my irony I hope. For crying out loud, STAFF, drop the terrible thinking skills, leave the discussions open, enforce rules already in place, check for and ditch any ridiculous motives you may have, and act like a Christian and not a scared little boy scout.


Jimmie

 

[TheBloodOfJesus]

I think this is true as you say that it usually the same few that sinks the ship..but we should be able to distinguish between those with an agenda, and those that really don't know how to disagree. Those with an anti-Wof agenda, there seems to be no way of stopping it. When you see the same people that are only starting threads to trash those beliefs of WoF over and over are easily recognized.

I agree. With some I have to say it is an obsession. I really do not think they can help themselves. They really see some sort of demon or something in WoFers.
I recall reading a book "Pigs in the Parlor" some years ago. The book had some strange things in it, but I remember one thing that has stuck with me.

Rejection!

I think there has been so much rejection and betrayal on this forum that nothing will help it short of a purge. The fellowship is broken. Some have said that we could fellowship around the things that we agree on. I do not think that will work. It is just too deep and too painful. There are people on this forum I could never fellowship with because of the painful and cruel things that have been said. The trust is broken. I am sorry. That is just the way it works. Someone stabs you in the back... you learn not to turn your back toward them again.

IMO...

This forum is lost to any meaningful use. It is accomplishing nothing and is very likely doing more harm than good. I do not think a hundred mods could control it.
It is an embarrassment to Christ and the Church.

 

[Trish1947]

I hope that it can be stopped by fair and rigorous application of the rules.
There are a few... very few... on both sides of the fence who are determined to create trouble.
However, you have a very good, unbiased team of mods here, who are doing their level best to make this forum work.
It is my hope that a month will be long enough for those few to decide that it is not worth hanging around!

A month??? Wow..no speaking about your faith for a month?? That aught to empty the board of the strongest, wof or not. The problem too is, people see your Icon, and if you say "Howdy" It's interpreted as only a WOF view. People need to get over the Icon sensitivity they have.

 

[Criada]

Criada,


Unbiased Mods would have enforced rules already in place not silenced all discussion on a subject. That's a dictator's tactict. Not that I think the Staff here is a bunch of dictators - I just think this demonstrates they don't think properly. There could also be some other motives here at work, though that's an assumption I can't make and couldn't prove at this point in time.

The mods were doing, and continue to do exactly that.
The moratorium was an admin decision.

Going to bed now, as I have to get up in 3 hours... I'll try to answer questions tomorrow.
God bless.