The State of Protestantism in America

Sean611

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I thought that a thread discussing the state of protestantism and its current state in America might lead to an interesting thread and discussion.

Basically, in America, we are seeing a longtime trend of decline in mainline protestantism and even a decline in evangelical protestantism in recent years. It has gotten to a point where the United States does not have a protestant majority.

6 Reflections on Protestant Decline in America – The Gospel Coalition Blog

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/10/u...f-protestant-americans-is-declining.html?_r=0

Those who have left protestantism have either stopped going to church or have joined Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox churches.

Evangelicals ‘Crossing the Tiber’ to Catholicism | (A)theologies | Religion Dispatches

I'm not sure where Anglicanism fits into all of this. I'm sure that many would consider the Episcopal Church mainline protestant, but Anglicanism, in my eyes, is more of a "middle-ground" between protestantism and Catholicism.

Basically, where do you all think this is heading? Will protestantism continue to shrink into oblivion or do you believe that we will see a new protestant awakening of some sort? Are we on the verge of a new type of Christianity altogether or will society continue to become more and more secular? Will more and more continue to join the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches or is this just a short-term trend?
 

seekingsister

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I'm sure immigration from Catholic countries is a significant factor that church's growth. Additionally you get a lot more "cultural Catholics" who turn up occasionally but will always affiliate with the church regardless.

This stuff doesn't keep me up at night. I'm an Anglican but if all the other churches disappeared and the Roman Catholic Church was the only one left, I'd find a way to worship God there.
 
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mark46

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Members have been lost as so many define thir church based on their political stances on homosexuality and abortion.

20 per cent of Americans are unaffiliated. 4 of the 20 pray every day. Only 6 per cent out of the 20 are atheists of agnostics. We are not attracting amour young people to Church. They'd rather work in the soup kitchen than here the continuing rants from the pulpit. Being gentler, they increasingly see no reason to go to a Protestant church.

I see an awakening of young people as we have seen in almost every century in the US. The open question is who will reach out to the youth who believe in God, yet see no reason to go to church. THose who seek him will indeed find him. The question is where they will attend church.
 
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PaladinValer

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We get a lot of influx from the Vatican Catholics, and it seems more are coming from them than leaving for them. I've also known a number of former Eastern Orthodox who've entered the Anglican Communion.

Personally, I'm not worried about people leaving for valid reasons; I'm worried about people leaving over invalid ones.
 
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jehoiakim

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No I think our future looks more like Europe but if we have a major depression an economic collapse or something else people may turn back but at this point I don't see a revival without hitting a rock bottom low first. The western world is too concerned with materialism and unimportant junk
 
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mark46

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To consider consider the status of faith communities in the US and Europe in the same breath (all a bunch of materialists) seems far fetched to me.

No ago e our future looks more like Europe but if we have a major depression an economic collapse or something else people may turn back but at this point I don't see a revival without hitting a rock bottom low first. The western world is too conserned with materialism and unimportant junk
 
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jehoiakim

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my apologies, the US is consumed with materialism, I cannot speak for Europe, I really don't know where they stand on that. Materialism leads to a weaker faith and eventually people will dump it because they don't understand the purpose or relevance of it and we will end up (in the US) much like Europe. I was not saying Europe got there by the same means merely that they will end up in the same place.
 
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MKJ

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Actually I think you are right about materialism and I think it applies to the West in general. Material wealth and comfort has always been a real danger to religion and the spiritual life. From The Problem of Pain:

“Let me implore the reader to try to believe, if only for a moment, that God, who made these deserving people, may really be right when He thinks that their modest prosperity and the happiness of their children are not enough to make them blessed: that all this must fall from them in the end, and if they have not learned to know Him they will be wretched. And therefore He troubles them, warning them in advance of an insufficiency that one day they will have to discover. The life to themselves and their families stands between them and the recognition of their need; He makes that life less sweet to them....

We can ignore even pleasure. But pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world....No doubt pain as God's megaphone is a terrible instrument; it may lead to final and unrepented rebellion. But it gives the only opportunity the bad man can have for amendment. it removes the veil; it plants the flag of truth within the fortress of the rebel soul....

The settled happiness and security which we all desire, God withholds from us by the very nature of the world: but joy, pleasure, and merriment, He has scattered broadcast. We are never safe, but we have plenty of fun, and some ecstasy. It is not hard to see why. The security we crave would teach us to rest our hearts in this world and oppose an obstacles to our return to God: a few moments of happy love, a landscape, a symphony, a merry meeting with out friends, a bathe or a football match, have no such tendency. Our Father refreshes us on the journey with some pleasant inns, but will not encourage us to mistake them for home.”



As for the rest, I don't think that an anything but bottled water approach to religion is going to attract anybody. Remaining quiet about something like abortion so as to prevent discomfort is pretty pathetic. It would be nice not to have to talk about homosexuality, but that is not realistic until there is actually some sort of resolution - the situation wont be improved by pretending it is immaterial.

In so far as mainline Protestantism is following that approach, I think they will continue to lose members. Catholicism is losing too except for immigration. The real enemy of the evangelicals and fundamentalists is lack of intellectual coherence.

Anglicanism has a very robust intellectual tradition which could attract those people, but it is not much in evidence these days. If people dont seeit they will not look for it here.
 
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Sean611

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As for the rest, I don't think that an anything but bottled water approach to religion is going to attract anybody. Remaining quiet about something like abortion so as to prevent discomfort is pretty pathetic. It would be nice not to have to talk about homosexuality, but that is not realistic until there is actually some sort of resolution - the situation wont be improved by pretending it is immaterial.

I agree, very well said. It was said that once TEC started to affirm every sort of behavior and lifestyle, the pews would be filled and the church would be overrun with new members. As it has turned out, the opposite has happened and many TEC parishes are having a hard time keeping the members they already have. At this point, you would think that rational leadership would start to look at these numbers and look at the lost dioceses and closed parishes and at least start to back off some the extreme stuff. However, the response is that we need to be even more welcoming and allow people to take Communion without baptism. I just cannot understand the thought process. I think people would much rather have a Church that stands for something and is firmly grounded, instead of a Church that tries to stand for everything. I think one of the biggest problems in Christianity today is just a general lack of solid leadership.
 
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PaladinValer

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TEC's biggest problem is that many of our leaders don't practice what they preach. Our liturgy is very clear: we do believe in the Holy Trinity, we do believe that Jesus is the Lord and unique in salvation, and we do believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman. That's not personal; that's what we pray. The Church has not changed in these matters, and I was encouraged when the proposal to end Holy Baptism before Holy Communion was defeated. It means we aren't as bad as many think.

The next three years are going to be difficult, but as my rector reminds us, in two years, we will have a new Presiding Bishop. +Lawrence's departure made things worse in TEC as well as for himself and the people who erroneously believed in his tales of TEC's departure (PEOPLE did, not the Church). If people want TEC's leaders to turn around and reexamine, they need to stop bleeding the people who want that. I truly question the ecclesiology of +Lawrence and his band and I wonder if the same was true for all those who went before him and them.

As I said before, there are orthodox alternatives to some of the proposals on the table. A Rite of Adelphopoiesis open to all persons regardless of sexual orientation is, IMHO, a by far superior alternative than the current trial "covenant" which is sloppily done and means very little: it only recognizes a relationship without much of a blessing. A Rite of Adelphopoiesis would consecrate a chaste relationship, bonding two people closer together in something that is ancient and meaningful in our Christian belief: we are all brothers and sisters; coinheritors in and with Christ the Lord. And since it creates a siblinghood, it would mean that any sort of attempt to marry or civilly union would be the equivalent to sacrilege: you cannot marry your brother or sister!

Another thing is to assure that all celibate gays, lesbians, and same-sex-leaning bisexuals have absolutely no canonical or doctrinal limitation in the ordained ministry whatsoever. I would even go so far as to say that all others who are struggling are also not barred, but it must be a true struggle. I struggle with my problems; so does everyone else with their sins. To point fingers on one set of sins like what we are doing now is what is going to destroy us. So, let's not be anti-Christian pietists and acknowledge those who honestly struggle. If they truly are, then there should be no barring from the ordained ministry, although they should formally end any sort of relationship before being ordained; they can go through the entire process otherwise. At the least, this means obtaining a divorce if currently civilly unioned with another individual or otherwise a formal and true pronouncement against continued romantic relationship with said other individual. It doesn't mean never seeing the person again however or keeping a relationship with that person; the Rite of Adelphopoiesis takes care of that...and can go along with a civil domestic partnership.

Finally, and this is true for all: educate the laity. Teach them what we do and why we do it. Teach them the meanings of the things they are reading, praying, singing. Help them understand their history and their theology. I truly believe this to be paramount in importance even after we solve these issues. We are an Apostolic and Catholic church with valid bishops in Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments (all licit too): teach that!
 
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Albion

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Those who have left protestantism have either stopped going to church or have joined Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox churches.

Evangelicals ‘Crossing the Tiber’ to Catholicism | (A)theologies | Religion Dispatches

Basically, where do you all think this is heading?

I think that article about Evangelicals crossing the Tiber talks in sweeping terms but has almost nothing specific to report that would substantiate the claim made by the title.

Will protestantism continue to shrink into oblivion or do you believe that we will see a new protestant awakening of some sort?
"Oblivion?" Hardly. Everything is in flux, but then again, that's the way of Christianity from the beginning.

Will more and more continue to join the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches or is this just a short-term trend?
I don't think it's a trend of any kind, if truth be told. However, the media likes to hype these things. I can think of two good examples. One, every time the Pope holds a meeting with the Ecumenical Patriarch, there are predictions that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are about to bury the hatchet and re-unite. There's no liklihood of that happening in our lifetimes.

Second, if I have read one story about the "Anglican Ordinariate" bringing about an imminent end to the English Reformation with Anglicans flooding to Rome in short order, I have read two dozen. Yet what has happened? The "trend" is the tiniest of trickles, maybe 0.0002% of the world's Anglicans making the move. The RC publications that were oohing and aahing about the reunion of Anglicanism and Catholicism a year ago now are thrilled now to report a single parish of 20 souls coming over.
 
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PaladinValer

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People who want same-sex blessings don't, I think, have any real interest in a blessing to create a special chaste relationship.

I think that is just way outside what they are looking for.

It may not be what they want, but Adelphopoeisis provides the best that orthodoxy can allow. Quite honestly, I think people who are homosexual or same-sex-preferring bisexuals have a calling to illustrate and prove how a true siblinghood in Christ is truly all about in a chaste relationship.
 
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MKJ

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It may not be what they want, but Adelphopoeisis provides the best that orthodoxy can allow. Quite honestly, I think people who are homosexual or same-sex-preferring bisexuals have a calling to illustrate and prove how a true siblinghood in Christ is truly all about in a chaste relationship.

That's very nice, but I think we are well past the point where that will be acceptable in TEC or the ACC. Siblinghood is not what they want, they want marriage for people of the same sex, including sex, because that is consistent with how they understand marriage and sexuality.

And they have made it pretty clear that they have no intention of holding back to retain orthodoxy - they really aren't even interested in orthodoxy.
 
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Sean611

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TEC's biggest problem is that many of our leaders don't practice what they preach. Our liturgy is very clear: we do believe in the Holy Trinity, we do believe that Jesus is the Lord and unique in salvation, and we do believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman. That's not personal; that's what we pray. The Church has not changed in these matters, and I was encouraged when the proposal to end Holy Baptism before Holy Communion was defeated. It means we aren't as bad as many think.

Well said, I agree. What do you think about the chances of Communion without Baptism passing in 2015?

The next three years are going to be difficult, but as my rector reminds us, in two years, we will have a new Presiding Bishop. +Lawrence's departure made things worse in TEC as well as for himself and the people who erroneously believed in his tales of TEC's departure (PEOPLE did, not the Church). If people want TEC's leaders to turn around and reexamine, they need to stop bleeding the people who want that. I truly question the ecclesiology of +Lawrence and his band and I wonder if the same was true for all those who went before him and them.

Again, I agree. If all those who have left over the years for various reasons ('79 BCP, women's ordination, sexuality issues, and so on) were still in TEC, the situation might be radically different.

As I said before, there are orthodox alternatives to some of the proposals on the table. A Rite of Adelphopoiesis open to all persons regardless of sexual orientation is, IMHO, a by far superior alternative than the current trial "covenant" which is sloppily done and means very little: it only recognizes a relationship without much of a blessing. A Rite of Adelphopoiesis would consecrate a chaste relationship, bonding two people closer together in something that is ancient and meaningful in our Christian belief: we are all brothers and sisters; coinheritors in and with Christ the Lord. And since it creates a siblinghood, it would mean that any sort of attempt to marry or civilly union would be the equivalent to sacrilege: you cannot marry your brother or sister!

This sounds like a very reasonable proposal to me. What many people forget is that there are those who are in TEC that are gay that choose to remain celibate. There are also those who are straight and single who choose to remain celibate until they are married and there are those who have been married who are now divorced that choose to remain un-married and celibate. It is sad that this group of people have been largely ignored by TEC leadership. It seems that marriages and relationships are defined as being only about the sex.

TEC leadership views on marriage is becoming a slippery slope of sorts. It seems that if one is gay or bisexual, it's ok for them to be sexually active as long as they are in a committed relationship. However, those who are straight are expected to have to wait until marriage before becoming sexually active. This double standard is very strange and lacks theological grounding.

Another thing is to assure that all celibate gays, lesbians, and same-sex-leaning bisexuals have absolutely no canonical or doctrinal limitation in the ordained ministry whatsoever. I would even go so far as to say that all others who are struggling are also not barred, but it must be a true struggle. I struggle with my problems; so does everyone else with their sins. To point fingers on one set of sins like what we are doing now is what is going to destroy us. So, let's not be anti-Christian pietists and acknowledge those who honestly struggle. If they truly are, then there should be no barring from the ordained ministry, although they should formally end any sort of relationship before being ordained; they can go through the entire process otherwise. At the least, this means obtaining a divorce if currently civilly unioned with another individual or otherwise a formal and true pronouncement against continued romantic relationship with said other individual. It doesn't mean never seeing the person again however or keeping a relationship with that person; the Rite of Adelphopoiesis takes care of that...and can go along with a civil domestic partnership.

Again, this seems like a very reasonable approach to me.

Finally, and this is true for all: educate the laity. Teach them what we do and why we do it. Teach them the meanings of the things they are reading, praying, singing. Help them understand their history and their theology. I truly believe this to be paramount in importance even after we solve these issues. We are an Apostolic and Catholic church with valid bishops in Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments (all licit too): teach that!

Agreed and I think this last point goes back to my original post about the decline of protestantism and the decline seen in our church and various other churches. The value of a good Christian education is of the upmost importance. I wonder how many have left their various churches and have chosen not to got to church anymore due to thinking going to church is just not important and not understanding why going to church is important? Teaching those who come into the church and those who are growing up in the church the importance of the sacraments is a good step in keeping people in the church.

For many, they go to church, sing a few hymns, hear a big sermon, sing a few more hymns, pray, and then go home. Many probably feel like they can do these things at home and study the Bible on their own. Anglicanism is sacramental. We need to find ways to reach out to these people and explain to them why the sacraments are so important and why it is so important for us to attend church to receive them. I think that there are many people out there who are seeking Christ, they just don't see how the church fits into the picture anymore.
 
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higgs2

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I would be very surprised if communion without baptism is something that successfully passes in the 2015 convention. There is really not as much support as you think for this and too many other things depend on baptism, for example the push to eliminate confirmation as a pre requite for local/diocesen/national positions in the church. Diminishing baptism as a requirement would conflict with the "The water is all you need" movement.
 
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higgs2

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People who want same-sex blessings don't, I think, have any real interest in a blessing to create a special chaste relationship.

I think that is just way outside what they are looking for.

I agree. That is not even a consideration at this point. We do now have a rite for blessing same sex unions at the bishop and priest's discretion. That horse has left the barn.
 
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ebia

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Finally, and this is true for all: educate the laity. Teach them what we do and why we do it. Teach them the meanings of the things they are ... singing.
Or, since they learn more from what they are singing than anything else, at least make sure the songs/hymns express a sound and full theology.
 
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PaladinValer

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I agree. That is not even a consideration at this point. We do now have a rite for blessing same sex unions at the bishop and priest's discretion. That horse has left the barn.

With all due respect, this is not true. The canonical document that came along with the Covenant Rite makes it very clear that it is not in any way a union or marriage of any kind. The rite itself lacks sacramental language and intention.

Or, since they learn more from what they are singing than anything else, at least make sure the songs/hymns express a sound and full theology.

Agreed entirely. I think choirs and cantors should have a little theological training that comes with joining a choir or music ministry.
 
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MKJ

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With all due respect, this is not true. The canonical document that came along with the Covenant Rite makes it very clear that it is not in any way a union or marriage of any kind. The rite itself lacks sacramental language and intention.

In Anglican theology, a marriage is a blessing of a committed, monogamous, sexual relationship where the individuals make vows and perform the sacrament themselves. They may have avoided some language (calling it a marriage primarily) to avoid controversy and cover their butts, but there is no way to see this as anything but a marriage rite. It doesnt matter if they use sacramental language or not.

This is not meant for people who just want a covenented friendship.

higgs is right - the horse has left the barn on same-sex relationships in TEC.
 
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