The Sixt Th Seal Events and the emergence of the One World Government.

[BABerean2]

Respectfully--The book of Revelation is not a scientific paper.

John saw that when Jesus open a seal an event or series of events happen.
From what we know from 2,000 years of history since John's vision is it possible to say how many seals are actually opened and fulfilled ?Personally, I can venture (guessing) to say that seals 1 to 4 are fulfilled.Seal 5 is probably opened but need to be completely fulfilled (Rev 6:9:11) before the opening of the 6 Th seal ...
Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Obviously Revelation 11:15 is not the end of the story.There are 8 other Chapters full of prophecies before the physical return of Jesus for the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19 and the establishment of His millennial Kingdom before that the Heavenly Jerusalem come down to Earth.

The reference to the birth of Christ was needed in support for the text.

Not really.

Can you show a practical example?Do you notice that Chapter 17 and Chapter 18 is just explaining to John why God is so angry about the actions of the "Great harlot Babylon" during the Tribulation ?

Those who are unable seeing both questions and both answers in Matthew chapter 24 must be suffering of spiritual blindness, for everything who does not fit with their doctrine.

Agreed !

I believe I gave several practical examples.

We know from 1st Corinthians chapter 15 that Christ returns at the last trumpet, which is the 7th trumpet. There is no 8th trump given in the text.
We also have Rev. 10:7, which says the "mystery" is finished at the 7th trumpet and the two witnesses are resurrected and taken up in a cloud about the time of the 7th trump.
Then, as you clearly stated we have 8 chapters before Armageddon.

As you admitted, the birth of Christ is found in Rev. chapter 12.
It does not matter if it is needed for support of the text, if we are arguing sequence. It is out of chronological order.
This should at least provide the possibility that other parts of the text are also out of sequence.

In my view the "harvest" of chapter 14, which contains elements of the parable of the wheat and tares, occurs at the battle of Armageddon, which is found in later chapters.

All of these are practical examples, clearly showing out of sequence chronology. I have not always held this view.
However, when I started to see in the text that some chapters were clearly out of sequence, the whole book started to finally produce a logic that could be understood.

Some attempt to say that those who are hiding from the Lamb at the end of chapter 6 are seeing a vision of Christ in heaven. However, this is not in the text. Textual elements show it is occurring on the Day of the Lord.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament we have numerous descriptions of the Day of the Lord as a day of wrath, of the trumpet, and of fire. We also have Joel's description of changes in the appearance of the sun and moon.
These are seen at Rev. 6:12. Some insist this occurs before the day of the Lord. However, it is my belief that it occurs immediately before and therefore signals the beginning of the day of the Lord.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (Clearly from Joel)

Then at Rev. 16:15 we have a reference to Christ coming "as a thief", which is another reference to the day of the Lord, found in 1st Thess. chapter 5.

As I studied the book, all of this textual evidence piled up to such a depth, that I could no longer accept the possibility that the book was in perfect chronological sequence.

In my view, one has to ignore or explain away a great deal to view it otherwise.

Respectfully,

.

 

[Riberra]

I believe I gave several practical examples.

We know from 1st Corinthians chapter 15 that Christ returns at the last trumpet, which is the 7th trumpet.

Paul call the last trump as the trump of God, that could be an indication that the trump of God may come after the seven trump of Revelation have sounded.

There is no 8th trump given in the text.

True, but there is also no trump sounding at the opening of the 6 Th seal that you consider being the End of the Great Tribulation and the return of Jesus announced in Matthew 24:29-30

We also have Rev. 10:7, which says the "mystery" is finished at the 7th trumpet and the two witnesses are resurrected and taken up in a cloud about the time of the 7th trump.

Then, as you clearly stated we have 8 chapters before Armageddon.

But you said in post


that all is over at the opening of the 6 th seal Chapter 6.As a remember no trump sound during the 6 th seal.

As you admitted, the birth of Christ is found in Rev. chapter 12.
It does not matter if it is needed for support of the text, if we are arguing sequence. It is out of chronological order.
This should at least provide the possibility that other parts of the text are also out of sequence.

You have find an example of a time gap included in the text.It change nothing in the sequential order of the chapters in the book of Revelation.
What chapter 12 tell us is about the attempts of Satan to kill the seed of the woman Ie (Jesus) as soon as he was born... and the intention of Satan to kill the remnant of her seed (Jesus Christ believers) when Satan will be cast out of Heaven.

Revelation 12:9,17
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

True but there is also no trump sounding at the opening of the 6 Th seal that you consider being the End of the Great Tribulation and the return of Jesus announced in Matthew 24:29-30



But you said in an earlier post that all is over at the opening of the 6 th seal.As a remember no trump sound during the 6 th seal.

You have find an example of a time gap included in the text.It change nothing in the sequential order of the chapters in the book of Revelation.
What chapter 12 tell us is about the attempts of Satan to kill the seed of the woman Ie (Jesus) as soon as he was born... and the intention of Satan to kill the remnant of her seed (Jesus Christ believers) when Satan will be cast out of Heaven.

Revelation 12:9,17
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If we hold to the logic that because no trump is mentioned in chapter 6, therefore there is no way it can be the same event, then again we are claiming that different details determine whether or not it is the same event.

We ignore the sun turning to sackcloth and the moon to blood on the day of the Lord, the earthquake present in both events, the fact that the kings, captains and mighty men are present in both events, and the wrath of the Lamb at the end of the chapter, because one or some of the details (like the trump) is missing.

Therefore, the women went to the empty tomb several different times, Jesus was born more than one time, Christ was crucified more than one time, and He rose from the dead on more than one occasion, because there are missing or different details in each account.

Also, there is no way Matthew chapter 24 can have a passage about the Second Coming of Christ that is related to 1st Thess. chapter 4, even though the Greek word "Parousia" is used in both passages, there is no way they could be the same event, because the language is not exactly the same.


Based on your logic, even though they have many common elements, they cannot be the same event, because the details are not the same.

You can use this logic to prove your viewpoint.
However, I do not think it is logical or reasonable to someone not biased on the interpretation of the passages.

.

 

[Riberra]

If we hold to the logic that because no trump is mentioned in chapter 6, therefore there is no way it can be the same event, then again we are claiming that different details determine whether or not it is the same event.

We ignore the sun turning to sackcloth and the moon to blood on the day of the Lord, the earthquake present in both events, the fact that the kings, captains and mighty men are present in both events, and the wrath of the Lamb at the end of the chapter, because one or some of the details (like the trump) is missing.

Therefore, the women went to the empty tomb several different times, Jesus was born more than one time, Christ was crucified more than one time, and He rose from the dead on more than one occasion, because there are missing or different details in each account.

We have already talked about this .

Also, there is no way Matthew chapter 24 can have a passage about the Second Coming of Christ that is related to 1st Thess. chapter 4, even though the Greek word "Parousia" is used in both passages, there is no way they could be the same event, because the language is not exactly the same.

I never contested that these verses
are effectively talking about the first resurrection at the second coming of Jesus after the great tribulation .

Based on your logic, even though they have many common elements, they cannot be the same event, because the details are not the same.

You can use this logic to prove your viewpoint.
However, I do not think it is logical or reasonable to someone not biased on the interpretation of the passages.

There is a danger saying that the 6th seal great earthquake is the end of the great tribulation and announce the return of Jesus.While that the book of Revelation tell us about the return of Jesus as a thief in Revelation 16:15 which will be at the time of a greatest and far more destructive earthquake.I think that you are making the same mistake that those who believe that they will be raptured before the 6 th seal.
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

[BABerean2]

There is a danger saying that the 6th seal great earthquake is the end of the great tribulation and announce the return of Jesus.While that the book of Revelation tell us about the return of Jesus as a thief in Revelation 16:15 which will be at the time of a greatest and far more destructive earthquake.I think that you are making the same mistake that those who believe that they will be raptured before the 6 th seal.

I do not think you are understanding my viewpoint.

In Revelation chapters 5 and 6, Christ removes seals from the book.
John is told to come and see what is in the book, after the seal is removed.
John records what he sees.
John has seen written in the book things that will occur later in the Book of Revelation, when Christ returns as a thief at Revelation 16:15, just as you stated above.

I am not saying that Christ returns at chapters 5 and 6.
I am not saying that at all.
I am saying that John records in chapters 5 and 6 what he saw in the book after the seal is removed.
What he saw and recorded is the return of Christ, which occurs at Rev. 16:15.

I have never said anyone is going to be raptured before Christ returns.
.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[BABerean2]

John is told to come and see where the riders are, not look at
the book

Can you give some of the text which proves this point about the location of the rider, being the major emphasis?

If this is the case then all of the text talking about the book with the seals, has no purpose in relation to John being called up to heaven. Why would Christ remove the seals, if no one is going to be able to see what is in the book? If the book remains "top secret" then Why is the book even mentioned? Why would Christ remove the seals if no one can see what is in the book?

It would be like someone giving you a book for a Christmas present. Then they help you remove that wrapping paper, but when they remove all of the wrapping paper, they tell you not to open the book and look at what is inside the book. The question you should then ask would be...

Why did you give me the book and help me unwrap it, it I am not allowed to read it?

.

 

[Riberra]

It would be like someone giving you a book for a Christmas present. Then they help you remove that wrapping paper, but when they remove all of the wrapping paper, they tell you not to open the book and look at what is inside the book.

Sorry to tell you that your premise is wrong !

Lets take your wrapping paper example.
Lets suppose that the Book is wrapped inside 7 layers of wrapping paper printed with images showing different events (seals 1 to 7 showing different events after they are removed by Jesus). You cannot have access to the book until the seven layers of wrapping paper are removed.Do you think that whatever is printed on the seven layers of wrapping papers represent what is inside the Book ?

John saw what is inside the book only when the 7 seals were removed by Jesus.Each seals represent an event who must happen and the 7 seals must be removed before that the visual events inside the Book showed to John will happen.

John have received the mission to write the text about the visual information (images and sounds like a movie -vision of things who will happen-) showed to him.

 

[BABerean2]

Sorry to tell you that your premise is wrong ![/QUOTE]

No. Your premise is wrong.

Revelation chapters 5 and 6 are about what is written in the book and that Christ is the only one worthy to remove the seals to reveal what is written in the book.
John has been called to witness all of this for one reason. He is there to find out what is in the book.
Otherwise there would be no need for John to be witnessing this.

In your paper wrapping example, you have completely enclosed the entire book with each of your layers of paper.
This is the fatal flaw in your example.

Each of the seals in Revelation chapter 5 seals a part of the book instead of the whole.
We know this because something is revealed each time a seal is removed.
After each seal is removed, John finds out what was hidden by that particular seal.

The Bible laying on my table is a book. However, it is made up of 66 individual books assembled together into one book. Each of those 66 individual books could be sealed with it's own individual seal.


This is a logical description of what is stated in the text of Rev. 5 and 6.

 

[Riberra]

No. Your premise is wrong.

Maybe we don't have the same definition about what a seal is made for and the need to remove them (if many)before opening what ever the seal is sealing.

 

[BABerean2]

Maybe we don't have the same definition about what a seal is made for and the need to remove them (if many)before opening what ever the seal is sealing.

Well, maybe we do, but with a difference in geometry.

In the first century text was written on scrolls, normally rolled up for storage.

Since we are considering a book written by the creator of the universe, He is not limited by time or space or geometry.

Take a flat sheet of animal skin or papyrus and write a message on it. Then roll it up and put your seal from the photo above on the outside. This seal is the 7th seal and the 7th message.

Then take another piece of flat sheet with a different message and roll it around your first sheet.
Then apply another wax seal as above.

Continue the process by placing the next vision around the previous messages and applying a wax seal to each as you go.

You end up with 7 scrolls, one inside of another, and each one with it's own seal.

Since it was written by the creator, He has placed the first message He wanted to be revealed with the first seal to be broken on the outside.

This would match up perfectly with what we see in the text of Revelation chapters 5 and 6.

 

[Riberra]

Well, maybe we do, but with a difference in geometry.

In the first century text was written on scrolls, normally rolled up for storage.

Take a flat sheet of animal skin or papyrus and write a message on it. Then roll it up and put your seal from the photo above on the outside. This seal is the 7th seal and the 7th message.

Then take another piece of flat sheet with a different message and roll it around your first sheet.
Then apply another wax seal as above.

Continue the process by placing the next vision around the previous messages and applying a wax seal to each as you go.

You end up with 7 scrolls, one inside of another, and each one with it's own seal.

Since it was written by the creator, He has placed the first message He wanted to be revealed with the first seal to be broken on the outside.

This would match up perfectly with what we see in the text of Revelation chapters 5 and 6.

A scroll with seven seals.

Since we are considering a book written by the creator of the universe, He is not limited by time or space or geometry.

John was limited by time and space and geometry.
John was given the mission to write a book about everything that he saw and heard .This begin from Chapter 1 of the book of Revelation....

Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea

 

[BABerean2]

A scroll with seven seals.



John was limited by time and space and geometry.
John was given the mission to write a book about everything that he saw and heard .This begin from Chapter 1 of the book of Revelation....

Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea

Brother Riberra,

What am I missing here?

It is my understanding that Revelation chapter 5 makes it clear that only Christ is worthy to remove the seals from the book.

Then we have the following in chapter 6...



Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
(Christ opened or broke or removed the first seal and the next verse tells what is revealed under the first seal.)


Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
(Christ removed the second seal and John is told to come and see what was revealed.)


Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
(Christ removes the third seal. John is told to come and see and the black-horse rider is revealed.)


Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
(Christ removes the fourth seal. John is told by the 4th beast to come and see.)
(In the Greek text, the green (chloros) horse rider is revealed.)


Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
(Christ removes the fifth seal and the souls under the altar are revealed.)


Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(Christ removes the sixth seal and then the text reveals what was hidden by this seal.)


Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I am usually a logical person, since I was a science teacher in my former life.

I must be missing something big in the text, since you and I normally agree on most things, but cannot seem to agree here.

 

[Riberra]

Brother Riberra,

What am I missing here?

It is my understanding that Revelation chapter 5 makes it clear that only Christ is worthy to remove the seals from the book.

Then we have the following in chapter 6...

I am not saying that John was opening the seals .John was told to write about everything that he saw in the vision. However the vision begin before he "come up to Heaven" when he was in the Spirit.
Revelation 4
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

--In reality John's vision begin here:
Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 ....
14 ....

I am usually a logical person, since I was a science teacher in my former life.

I must be missing something big in the text, since you and I normally agree on most things, but cannot seem to agree here.

There is no doubt that you are a logical person.
However by focusing on Chapter 5 and 6 and trying to find overlapping between events in the seals, the trumpets and the vials.
It is possible that you have missed that the voice of God is -as of a trumpet- Moses also reported this .
That could be useful to know thajavascript:void(null);t detail.Knowing that the last trump that Paul is talking about is the Trump of God.You have said in another post that there is no extra trumpets in the Book Revelation when i have said to you that it is possible that the last trump will sound after the 7 trumpets mentioned in Revelation 8 Rev 9 and Rev 10.If i can show you precisely where the last trump -the trump of God- announcing the end of the tribulation and the second coming of Jesus will sound, will you admit that my interpretation about the sequential order of the chapters in the Book of Revelation is correct ?

 

[BABerean2]

I am not saying that John was opening the seals .John was told to write about everything that he saw in the vision. However the vision begin before he "come up to Heaven" when he was in the Spirit.
Revelation 4
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

--In reality John's vision begin here:
Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;



There is no doubt that you are a logical person.
However by focusing on Chapter 5 and 6 and trying to find overlapping between events in the seals, the trumpets and the vials.
It is possible that you have missed that the voice of God is -as of a trumpet- Moses also reported this .
That could be useful to know that detail.Knowing that the last trump that Paul is talking about is the Trump of God.You have said in another post that there is no extra trumpets in the Book Revelation when i have said to you that it is possible that the last trump will sound after the 7 trumpets mentioned in Revelation 8 Rev 9 and Rev 10.If i can show you precisely where the last trump -the trump of God- announcing the end of the tribulation and the second coming of Jesus that Paul is talking about will sound, will you admit that my interpretation about the sequential order of the chapters in the Book of Revelation is correct ?

I agree that John was shown things related to the churches in Asia Minor before we get to chapters 5 and 6.
I have no disagreement with that at all.

Your last question is like me asking if I could demonstrate a geometry that would make the revealing of the seals possible, would you agree with what I am saying.
I would not expect you to write that "blank check" in our discussion.
I feel like we are wrestling and you are attempting to put me in a "Full Nelson", in order to get me to submit.

Instead, show me your viewpoint and we will discuss it.

.

 

[Riberra]

Instead, show me your viewpoint and we will discuss it.

John saw that the seven seals were removed one after the other from 1 to 7 by Jesus ,then Jesus showed to John what was inside the scroll (book) . Do you see the sequential order?

 

[BABerean2]

John saw that the seven seals were removed one after the other from 1 to 7 by Jesus ,then Jesus showed to John what was inside the scroll (book) . Do you see the sequential order?

Is that not what I said in Post #214?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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