The second coming of Jesus Christ is LITERAL, not figurative, metaphoric, nor private

Berean777

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of course he is.

but also christ asked to receive the glory he possessed before the earth was formed. how many flesh and blood jewish men were running around in the heavens back then? see john 17:5

That is beside the point. Didn't the Christ walk in the Garden of Eden?
Didn't Adam try to hide from him and to cover his nakedness?
Didn't the Christ talk to Adam and Eve together and by addressing them individually?

Was the Christ who had the heavenly body in the Garden a Jew?

Was the Christ who walked, saw and talked with Adam and Eve of individually a spirit before his incarnation as Jesus of Nazareth?

I believe that you are capable of answering these straightforward questions. Please do, thankyou kindly!
 
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Berean777

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what form do you believe jesus has today?

a ) flesh - hebrews 2:7-9 & philippians 2:7-9

b ) spirit - john 17:5 & hebrews 13:8 (1 corinthians 15:50)

The best example I can give of the heavenly angelic body is that of the Q figure in Star Trek.....

Q is a being who is unconstrained by, and indeed possesses power over, normal human notions of time,space, and even reality itself

Post resurrection form of Christ was unconstrained and he possesed power over normal human physics, such as time, space, by appearing where ever and when ever he wanted and reality, where he revealed himself when he wanted to, that is before revealing himself those who walked with him for miles thought him as a stranger.
 
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That is beside the point. Didn't the Christ walk in the Garden of Eden?
Didn't Adam try to hide from him and to cover his nakedness?
Didn't the Christ talk to Adam and Eve together and by addressing them individually?

Was the Christ who had the heavenly body in the Garden a Jew?

Was the Christ who walked, saw and talked with Adam and Eve of individually a spirit before his incarnation as Jesus of Nazareth?

I believe that you are capable of answering these straightforward questions. Please do, thankyou kindly!

jews didnt even exist until the benjamin and judah became tribal nations. of course god wasnt a jew in the garden he was god.

was god in a theophany form?... nobody can say because the bible doesnt divulge those details but that he "walked" and "talked" in the garden.
 
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The best example I can give of the heavenly angelic body is that of the Q figure in Star Trek.....



Post resurrection form of Christ was unconstrained and he possesed power over normal human physics, such as time, space, by appearing where ever and when ever he wanted and reality, where he revealed himself when he wanted to, that is before revealing himself those who walked with him for miles thought him as a stranger.

what glory did christ possess before the earth was formed? the same glory as the father and the father is a spirit.
 
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Berean777

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what glory did christ possess before the earth was formed? the same glory as the father and the father is a spirit.

Glory does not equate to form as you presume.

God is Holy Spirit and the Christ has the glory of God; yet he possesses a form as the one to one designated interpreter of the invisible God, the LOGOS.

Who was in the Garden, who dined with Abraham and who wrestled wth Jacob, who stood with Daniel in the burning furnace, who was seen and talked with Jospeh and who touched Jeremiah's mouth.
 
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Glory does not equate to form as you presume.

God is Holy Spirit and the Christ has the glory of God; yet he possesses a form as the one to one designated interpreter of the invisible God, the LOGOS.

Who was in the Garden, who dined with Abraham and who wrestled wth Jacob, who stood with Daniel in the burning furnace, who was seen and talked with Jospeh and who touched Jeremiah's mouth.

nobody could see the face of god and live. nobody has seen god.

i surmise these were no doubt theophanies or visions and did not represent god in his true full glory. otherwise these individuals would have never survived these encounters.
 
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Berean777

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jews didnt even exist until the benjamin and judah became tribal nations. of course god wasnt a jew in the garden he was god.

was god in a theophany form?... nobody can say because the bible doesnt divulge those details but that he "walked" and "talked" in the garden.

On the contrary, the bible does speak of a physical manifestation of the Living Word to many old testament saints.

In the story of the Garden scripture states.....

Gen 3:8 — Gen 3:9
And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Firstly, a spirit epiphany does not say where are you, unless Adam and Eve positioned themselves away from tge Lord's physical manifested pesence, albeit the Lord knew where they were hiding all along.

Secondly, a spirit doesn't audibly speak from no where , which would have startled Adam and Eve. The Lord is seen coming in the cool of the evening and not the heat of the day.

Lastly, They heard the Lord walking in the Garden. A spirit is not a physical form that can be heard walking in the Garden. They hid themselves from a physical presence. Hiding oneself from a spirit is not the case.
 
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Berean777

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nobody could see the face of god and live. nobody has seen god.

i surmise these were no doubt theophanies or visions and did not represent god in his true full glory. otherwise these individuals would have never survived these encounters.

That is a wrong presumption, you have no evidence to say that the old testament saints did not see a physical form. The four men standing in the burning furnace was not a vision the king witnessed.

24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, andspake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

You have King of Babylon and dozens of advisers witnessing a fourth person. Were they seeing a spirit?

Hardly.

Moses was told by the Christ figure the following....

"you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

If the epiphany is only a spirit, it would not make any sense for Moses to be warned not to look up, after all Moses never requested to see the Lord in person, for the Lord to give him that warning. Had Moses requested to see the Lord's face, then that statement would be valid, if you are saying that Moses wanted the spirit to manifest physically.

11The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.

After all the rendering of the verse above is the Lord would speak to Moses person to person, like normal human or friend physical interaction of the statement face to face. This would be the context to why the Lord told Moses not to look up at his face, but rather keep his eyes lowered looking at the body and feet of the Christ being.

You cannot fit this context to a mere spirit and certainly was not a vision, since it was witnessed by those outside of the tent.
 
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he-man

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Never?? Luke 24:31 (Before the Ascension) Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.
He vanished out of their sight - He suddenly departed. It does not appear that there was anything miraculous in this, but, during their surprise, he took the opportunity suddenly to withdraw from them.[BARNES] As also it is said: He vanished out of their sight - Probably, during their surprise, he took the opportunity of withdrawing from the place; leaving them to reflect and meditate on what they had heard and seen.[CLARKE] SO ALSO and vanished out of their sight; not that he vanished as a spectre, or as smoke vanishes into air; but agility being a property of his risen body, he very suddenly, and swiftly, and in a moment, withdrew himself from them; for if he could withdraw himself from company in a very speedy manner before his resurrection, much more after; see Luk_4:30.[GILL]
NOW the rest of that appearance: Luk 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
You are correct, however, that he had not yet ascended and because he was still a physical person, Mary did not recognize him but he was not the spirit kind you imply with your rhetoric!
Jn 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, nd your God.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
 
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That is a wrong presumption, you have no evidence to say that the old testament saints did not see a physical form. The four men standing in the burning furnace was not a vision the king witnessed.



You have King of Babylon and dozens of advisers witnessing a fourth person. Were they seeing a spirit?

Hardly.

Moses was told by the Christ figure the following....

"you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

If the epiphany is only a spirit, it would not make any sense for Moses to be warned not to look up, after all Moses never requested to see the Lord in person, for the Lord to give him that warning. Had Moses requested to see the Lord's face, then that statement would be valid, if you are saying that Moses wanted the spirit to manifest physically.

11The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.

After all the rendering of the verse above is the Lord would speak to Moses person to person, like normal human or friend physical interaction of the statement face to face. This would be the context to why the Lord told Moses not to look up at his face, but rather keep his eyes lowered looking at the body and feet of the Christ being.

You cannot fit this context to a mere spirit and certainly was not a vision, since it was witnessed by those outside of the tent.

WRONG!

i dont think you know what a "theophany" is?

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Theophany

you believe god is flesh and blood?

god is an omnipresent and omniscient spirit.

and flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of god including resurrected flesh and blood.
 
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Berean777

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WRONG!

i dont think you know what a "theophany" is?

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Theophany

you believe god is flesh and blood?

god is an omnipresent and omniscient spirit.

and flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of god including resurrected flesh and blood.

You haven't really refuted anything that I wrote in........#581, #582, #585, #587, #588.

Theophany is a term used in Greek philosophy in relation to their pantheon of false gods in their mythical stories of one off appearances of each of their false gods. When I say one off, I mean that each god had their one off appearance story, in describing the function of that false god. However the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel is an epiphany of the Christ, witnessed to believers and non believers and throughout the ages, this means that it is not a one off appearance story or vision, but many real and tangible physical appearances, throughout the generations of Old Covenant Israel. These multiple appearances, by evidence of scripture, can hardly be likened to a one off theophany. The Christ appearances were not a function of his role in some mythical story, in the way the ancient Greeks depicted their gods.

Example of theophany is of the false Greek god mythological stories and relationship that they had with other false gods. Here is an example of such theophany......

Poseidon (/pəˈsaɪdən, pɒ-, poʊ-/;[1] Greek: Ποσειδῶν, pronounced [pose͜edɔ́͜ɔn]) was one of the twelve Olympian deities of the pantheon in Greek mythology. His main domain was the ocean, and he is called the "God of the Sea". Additionally, he is referred to as "Earth-Shaker"[2] due to his role in causing earthquakes, and has been called the "tamer of horses".[3] He is usually depicted as an older male with curly hair and beard.

The name of the sea-god Nethuns in Etruscan was adopted in Latin for Neptune in Roman mythology; both were sea gods analogous to Poseidon. Linear B tablets show that Poseidon was venerated at Pylos and Thebes in pre-Olympian Bronze Age Greece as a chief deity, but he was integrated into the Olympian gods as the brother of Zeus and Hades.[3] According to some folklore, he was saved by his mother Rhea, who concealed him among a flock of lambs and pretended to have given birth to a colt, which was devoured by Cronos.[4]

You cannot categorise the appearances of Christ with the theophany of Greek mythical stories. How can you think of the Lord in this manner, it is both derogatory and offensive to the Lord. Christ not only appeared to the prophets of old, but he dined with them and he established a one to one personal relationship with them. By using the word theophany, you unwittingly have categorised the Lord amongst the pantheon of false gods stories, who had no personal relationship with humans, except with their own relatives. A personal one to one relationship and a face to face dialogue, especially in the case of Abraham in relation to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah can hardly be visions or theophanies. How could Abraham and the prophets like Moses, establish a one to one personal relationship and face to face dialogue with a vision or a theophany story. All theophany stories are impersonal to man kind and certainly do not provide any evidence of any face to face dialogue or positive interactions with human beings.

No I don't believe that God is flesh and blood from a human perspective. Though I believe that Jesus Christ, who is our living God came by water and blood. Now having said that, God is infinite Holy Spirit. The Son who is the reflection of the infinite invisible source of Light, is seen and has been seen physically throughout history, by many. His appearances in the Old Testament doesn't mean that he had blood running in his veins, as you have wrongly assumed that these appearances had human flesh and human blood. These appearance are likened to the Son of man, though they are physical by nature, but do not require the biomechanical chemistry function internally, like the human body require to survive. I can liken the appearances of Christ in the Old Testament like chemists compare carbon based life forms (humans) to silicon based life form (mimic human appearance, but lack internals).

Ask yourself one question, when Jesus was eating the broiled fish at the table with his disciples present, was his body digesting the food, by using a blood based nutrient dispersion biomechanical chemical system?

No.

In fact the Lord spells it out, that he is not a blood based life form as humans are, though his appearance is very real and physical.

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)

Flesh and bone in the absense of blood, points to a non-carbon based life form, that materialises synthetically to be seen. Christ didn't need to eat the broiled fish, rather he synthetically materialised at those GPS coordinates at will. We can also know that when he walked for miles with the disciples, the synthetic appearances prevented them from recognising the Lord, because he tweaked his form so that he would not be recognised and how this appearance interacts with thought perceptions plays another part, to how the Lord reads their minds and how he projects himself within their thought process. In fact Christ did a slow reveal to Mary Magdalene who would suddenly come to recognise him, when he tweaked the form and projected it in her mind spirit to spirit, to recognise not only his appearance, but also his very being.

Yes flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of heaven, that is human flesh and blood which is associated with carbon based life forms of the earth. However flesh and bone in the absense silicon based life forms that can matialise at will can inherit the Kingdom of God, because the function of the physical appearances is not a function of being. Again the function of physical appearance is not a function of being. The heavenly body is one that is not living conscious soul alone, rather it can manifest physically at will anywhere it pleases. The words of Jesus......

My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

As humans living within the carbon based earthly body we are a finite function of our carbon based bodies. Angels are an infinite function of their assigned function, which is not tied down to physical matter or physical form that they take on if so they wish. In the earthly body we are a finite function of our earthly bodies, however in the heavenly body we are Lord from Heaven and are a function of our assigned function that the Lord will assign each of us.

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:47)

As we are in our sinful carbon based bodies, we are a function of that sinful body that we contend with every day. In the heavenly sinless form, we are a function of the sinless assigned state of being, not tied down in function to physical matter. In this regard we cannot say we are Lords from heaven, because we live in a finite function dictated by our sinful bodies, that operates by blood chemistry.
 
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he-man

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of course he is. but also christ asked to receive the glory he possessed before the earth was formed. how many flesh and blood jewish men were running around in the heavens back then? see john 17:5
the glory which I had with thee before the world was; the same phrase with לעולם, or קודם העולם, used by the Jews (h). This is not to be understood of the glory of the human nature of Christ, abstractly considered; for that is no person of itself, but what is taken up into personal union with the Son of God; and therefore cannot be intended by this personal character I; nor did it exist from eternity; it was indeed written in God's book of predestination, even all its members, when as yet there were none of them in actual being; it was set up in God's thoughts and counsel, as the pattern and exemplar of human nature; it had a federal union with the Son of God, or a covenant subsistence with him; and in the Old Testament Christ was often spoken of as man, because of his frequent appearances in an human form, and because of the certainty of his incarnation; but he did not really and actually exist as man, until he took flesh of the virgin; for Christ, as man, is the seed of the woman, the son of David, Abraham, and Adam; he is called the last and second Adam, and was not as man before the first: the Old Testament speaks of his incarnation as future, nor is it possible that a creature can exist before time; for as soon as a creature exists, time begins, which is nothing else than the measure of a creature's duration; nor was the human nature of Christ with the Father from eternity; nor had it a glory before the world began, neither in whole, nor in part: nor is the glory of the divine nature abstractly considered here meant; this glory indeed Christ had from everlasting; he had it with his Father, in common with him, being in union to him; and it is true that it was in some measure veiled and covered in his state of humiliation; for though there were some breakings forth of it in that state, these were seen but by a few; wherefore he is thought by some, to pray here for the manifestation of this glory; but this glory was essential to him, was his natural right, and not to be prayed for, and which he then had as much as ever, and of which there could be no suspension: but this designs the glory of him as Godman, and Mediator; he was not only predestinated to be a Mediator, but was really set up as such from everlasting, and had a mediatorial fulness of grace put into his hands, and had the honour and glory of that office given unto him by the other two persons; and now that he might appear to be what he was, to be made, that is, made manifest that he was both Lord and Christ, he here prays; which was to be done, upon his ascension to heaven, and session at the right hand of God, by the pouring down of the Holy Ghost.
(g) Midrash Tillim in Psal. 20 apud Galatin. de Arcan. Cathol. Ver. l. 3. c. 9. (h) Gloss in T. Bab Pesachim, fol. 54. 1.
[GILL] and vanished out of their sight; not that he vanished as a spectre, or as smoke vanishes into air; but agility being a property of his risen body, he very suddenly, and swiftly, and in a moment, withdrew himself from them; for if he could withdraw himself from company in a very speedy manner before his resurrection, much more after; see Lk 4:30.
 
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