The second coming of Jesus Christ is LITERAL, not figurative, metaphoric, nor private

cgaviria

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I am bothered by certain people that believe the second coming of Jesus Christ is merely a metaphor. There are other matters like the "trinity", and "hell", and "death", and "hades" that can be debated back and forth, and much of these topics are obscured by different translations, but the second coming of Jesus Christ as a metaphor, seriously? Even the worse of watered down translations do not refute the fact that Jesus Christ is indeed coming again literally and I feel the need to vehemently make this clear in a short and direct post. There is plenty of truth in any bible translation to even just affirm this.
 

Justme

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I am bothered by certain people that believe the second coming of Jesus Christ is merely a metaphor. There are other matters like the "trinity", and "hell", and "death", and "hades" that can be debated back and forth, and much of these topics are obscured by different translations, but the second coming of Jesus Christ as a metaphor, seriously? Even the worse of watered down translations do not refute the fact that Jesus Christ is indeed coming again literally and I feel the need to vehemently make this clear in a short and direct post. There is plenty of truth in any bible translation to even just affirm this.
I haven't noticed people denying that Jesus literally returns to His followers. All I have noticed is some insist Jesus returns physically in His earthly or flesh and BONE body to planet earth. He does not. Jesus returns to each believer in the spiritual realm where He judges them, 2 COR 5:10 AFTER their personal death, Hebrews 9:27.

Justme
 
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cgaviria

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I haven't noticed people denying that Jesus literally returns to His followers. All I have noticed is some insist Jesus returns physically in His earthly or flesh and BONE body to planet earth. He does not. Jesus returns to each believer in the spiritual realm where He judges them, 2 COR 5:10 AFTER their personal death, Hebrews 9:27.

Justme

This is exactly the false doctrine I'm talking about! How can you not believe that Jesus Christ comes back PHYSICALLY TO JUDGE THE EARTH? This is one of the most horrible doctrines I've heard just now, I did not think this to be a common doctrine. Its denying pure basics.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I am bothered by certain people that believe the second coming of Jesus Christ is merely a metaphor.
Maybe I just don't get around enough but I wasn't aware there was any great amount of controversy about this. Sure, you get a few Dominionists here and there and there are American Episcopalians who will deny anything and everything in sacred scripture but most Christian bodies believe that Our Lord is coming back sooner or later.
 
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cgaviria

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Maybe I just don't get around enough but I wasn't aware there was any great amount of controversy about this. Sure, you get a few Dominionists here and there and there are American Episcopalians who will deny anything and everything in sacred scripture but most Christian bodies believe that Our Lord is coming back sooner or later.

I've identified 3 people already in the last hour in this forum that believe in a metaphorical coming of Jesus Christ. And I wasn't even trying to identify them, it just came up in conversation. I don't even think the catholics, who I speak against, even believe in this horrible doctrine. Do you?
 
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thecolorsblend

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I've identified 3 people already in the last hour in this forum that believe in a metaphorical coming of Jesus Christ. And I wasn't even trying to identify them, it just came up in conversation. I don't even think the catholics, who I speak against, even believe in this horrible doctrine. Do you?
I was referring to groups, as I said in my post. Yes, you can find individuals who hold to all sorts of wacky ideas. Those don't necessarily speak for the body at large.
 
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cgaviria

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I was referring to groups, as I said in my post. Yes, you can find individuals who hold to all sorts of wacky ideas. Those don't necessarily speak for the body at large.

Agreed.
 
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I've identified 3 people already in the last hour in this forum that believe in a metaphorical coming of Jesus Christ. And I wasn't even trying to identify them, it just came up in conversation. I don't even think the catholics, who I speak against, even believe in this horrible doctrine. Do you?

I believe He'll literally come back. Not in a flesh and bone body as Justme mentioned, but rather the glorified body He now has, and then each of us will be transformed into a glorified body like He has. That's not to say that He comes to us in some spiritual way privately. He will be seen by all when He comes.
 
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cgaviria

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I believe He'll literally come back. Not in a flesh and bone body as Justme mentioned, but rather the glorified body He now has, and then each of us will be transformed into a glorified body like He has. That's not to say that He comes to us in some spiritual way privately. He will be seen by all when He comes.

YES! In a glorified body absolutely!
 
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Berean777

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I haven't noticed people denying that Jesus literally returns to His followers. All I have noticed is some insist Jesus returns physically in His earthly or flesh and BONE body to planet earth. He does not. Jesus returns to each believer in the spiritual realm where He judges them, 2 COR 5:10 AFTER their personal death, Hebrews 9:27.

Justme

Yes Hebrews 9:27 is the condition by which we are to receive our eternal inheritance.

So what is the condition?

The context to Hebrews 9:27 is............

Hebrews 9:15-17
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

So whilst we live in the earthly body, we can not receive our eternal inheritance and so Hebrews 9:27 states ..........

Hebrews 9:27-28
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

We need to remember that the writer of Hebrews was writing to his immediate audience who are other Jewish apostles that would have most certainly seen the Lord the first time in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth. The Hebrews writer now within the context of the afterlife, meaning after the death of the witness, declares that the Lord will appear to the faithful the second time, this time those apostles who had seen him the first time will now have died and been raised in their sinless resurrection bodies to be present with the Lord. This is the separation of the sheep and the goats after every man in turn are destined to die once then judgment, on the day and hour the thief (death) comes to destroy the earthly house (body).

Saint Paul writes..........

2 Timothy 4:6-8
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The Lord's second appearing as far as Paul and the apostles were concerned in their time, was when they were to die. After death and in line with what the Hebrews author writes, the death of the testator then immediately presents them before the Lord for judgement, in receiving their eternal inheritance (crown of righteousness), that the Lord has already through the cross and his resurrection as the forerunner laid up for every witness on their last day in the earthly body. Notice Paul places each in his own turn criteria, within the context when that particular testator dies. That is why he comforts those who would live beyond his departure/death, that they too in turn when they die will also gladly behold the Lord's appearing. Saint Stephan was the first to behold the Lord's appearing coming with the clouds of heaven. People are glad as Paul states in this appearing because it will be the presentation of all presentation days for the witness when they according to their turn have finished their individual race and have kept the faith even onto death.

Looking forward in gladness for the Lord's appearing is not to be confused with the day of the Lord, when he takes out vengeance upon the unbelieving world at large. So this message of gladness is a time in a believers life stage, where they are rewarded for the works done in the body as the ultimate progression from temporal life in the earthly body to life in the eternal body to be reunited with the risen Lord. To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.

So there is this turn criteria that is reiterated throughout scripture concerning the New Testament witnesses who on their unique day and hour of departure/death are to receive their eternal inheritance. That is why Paul states that........

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

It should be obvious that Paul is alluding to the brilliant coming of the Lord after the day of the Lord, as a brilliant light, in the same way as it was declared in Genesis "Let there be Light". Paul highlights that those that remain alive towards the end of the harvest and after the days of vengeance/slaughter, shall not prevent those who had previously died in receiving their eternal inheritance. So when we look at the New Testament age from the reaping of the first fruits (old covenant saints) Matthew 27:52-53 all the way up until the last good tasting wine of the harvest towards the gleaning, we see that the last 2000 years have already advanced those departed to already receive their eternal inheritance, as time has no bearing on a departed soul, who unlike the old covenant saints do not go down to the grave/shoel, but immediately receive what has already been laid up for them after they die.

The turn criteria continues..........

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

We have to harmonise all scripture to understand the thoughts of the apostles, as if we lived in their shoes.

Let us look at one final verse that discloses what condition is required to behold the Lord's appearing with gladness.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So the condition of seeing the risen Lord in his glorified form requires us to also put on our glorified bodies and this cannot happen until we first die, then be judged by the Lord, according to our works done in the body.

So the apostle admits that in his human body he doesn't know what his experience will be like in the afterlife glorified body, but is confident that when the risen Lord appears to the faithful, himself included, that he also needs to be like him and then and only then shall he see him as he is in his glorified risen form.

So I see many confusing the resurrection of the dead as being a one time event towards the gleaning of the harvest, when scripture clearly informs us that the reaping of the harvest covers the entire new covenant age and that each witness receives their eternal inheritance in turn when their time of departure comes, to then gladly receive what has already been laid up for them to receive after they die.

Many confuse the appearing of the Lord with the brilliant coming of the Lord after the day of the Lord, which is a day of vengeance taken out upon the inhabitants of the world. Remember the day of the Lord is not something to look forward to for it is a day of vengeance and this is in vast contrast to the appearing of the Lord for the departed faithful witnesses who looks forward to it with gladness as Paul declares in 2 Timothy 4:6-8. So the two are completely different.

There is a second coming of the Lord or shall I say there has been and will be for every departed faithful who finishes their race and keeps the faith even unto death, so that they too in turn may receive their eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9:27-28)

Therefore it is a literal coming within the context of the afterlife!

The second coming is not spiritual, but real and tangible to the departed faithful who now is presented before the Lord for judgement, so to receive their eternal inheritance, that has been already laid up for them and every faithful witness in Christ.
 
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Wgw

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I am bothered by certain people that believe the second coming of Jesus Christ is merely a metaphor. There are other matters like the "trinity", and "hell", and "death", and "hades" that can be debated back and forth, and much of these topics are obscured by different translations, but the second coming of Jesus Christ as a metaphor, seriously? Even the worse of watered down translations do not refute the fact that Jesus Christ is indeed coming again literally and I feel the need to vehemently make this clear in a short and direct post. There is plenty of truth in any bible translation to even just affirm this.

I agree, as does the Orthodox Church, interestingly.
 
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Berean777

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I agree, as does the Orthodox Church, interestingly.

If you consider the prayer for the dead in the orthodox liturgy.

It states the following.........


The departed such and such (name) has migrated from life temporal to life eternal to be with the Lord in heaven.

This means that the resurrection is according after a person dies when their day and hour comes. Please consider my post in ......

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/thre...does-he-come-privately.7921862/#post-68962408">The second coming of Jesus Christ is LITERAL, not figurative not metaphor nor does he come privately</a>

If you ask the older segment of the Orthodox Church in regards to the departed and their status, they will plainly tell you that they are with Christ in heaven.

In fact the prevention of any faithful to be reunited with Christ after death is no where taught in orthodox teachings.

The idea that the departed unconsciously await in Sheol or purgatory is something that is newly accepted within the younger clergy of the Orthodox Church and when scrutinised it has no relation to what the prayers or what the church believed in for centuries, that is, the departed are by no way prevented from receiving their eternal inheritance after death.

I believe that the orthodox teachings being flogged today are greatly being influenced by the western Catholic Church teachings of purgatory or what not.

I sincerely hope that you consult older people like clergy and or even laity to ask them what happens to the departed and if they are with Christ and are conscious of them being with Christ?

I'm willing to say that the majority will say that they are in heaven with Christ.
 
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Wgw

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If you consider the prayer for the dead in the orthodox liturgy.

It states the following.........


The departed such and such (name) has migrated from life temporal to life eternal to be with the Lord in heaven.

This means that death is according to my post in ......

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/thre...does-he-come-privately.7921862/#post-68962408">The second coming of Jesus Christ is LITERAL, not figurative not metaphor nor does he come privately</a>

If you ask the older segment of the Orthodox Church in regards to the departed and their status, they will plainly two, you that they are with Christ in heaven.

In fact the prevention of any faithful to be reunited with Christ after death is no where taught in orthodox teachings.

The idea that the departed unconsciously await in Sheol or purgatory is something that is newly accepted within the younger clergy of the Orthodox Church and when scrutinised it has no relation to what the prayers or what the church believed in for centuries, that is, the departed are by no way prevented from receiving their eternal inheritance after death.

I believe that the orthodox teachings being flogged today are greatly being influenced by the western Catholic Church teachings of purgatory or what not.

I sincerely hope that you consult older people like clergy and or even laity to ask them what happens to the departed and if they are with Christ and are conscious of them being with Christ?

I'm willing to say that the majority will say that they are in heaven with Christ.

Whereas it is true that the Orthodox reject a belief in soul sleep, and do believe in a heavenly repose for the righteous ahead of the day of judgment, it is not true that we regard the second coming of our Lord in a metaphorical sense. We believe that at the last judgement, the souls of the condemned and righteous, which are in no sense "asleep," will be reunited with their physically resurrected bodies, and our Lord will then pass final judgment.

This both/and belief is in fact normative among Orthodox, Catholics and mainstream Protestants. Where we differ from Catholics and Protestants relates primarily to what transpires after death; Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote a compelling book on this subject.
 
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Berean777

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Whereas it is true that the Orthodox reject a belief in soul sleep, and do believe in a heavenly repose for the righteous ahead of the day of judgment, it is not true that we regard the second coming of our Lord in a metaphorical sense. We believe that at the last judgement, the souls of the condemned and righteous, which are in no sense "asleep," will be reunited with their physically resurrected bodies, and our Lord will then pass final judgment.

This both/and belief is in fact normative among Orthodox, Catholics and mainstream Protestants. Where we differ from Catholics and Protestants relates primarily to what transpires after death; Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote a compelling book on this subject.

Did you miss something brother.

No one including me are saying that the Lord's second coming is metaphorical as the poster wrongly presumes.

In fact the point of contention is the context of the literal second coming.

Now, no one will deny that the Lord came for the second time for Saint Stephan or will they deny it by interpreting it metaphorically, so to speak!

The orthodox teach that Jesus calls the faithful UP to his Father's house and never sets foot on earth or makes a spectacle to be seen of the world.

Secondly the orthodox believe that the body that is put on is not the temporal body, but that which is eternal and not corruptive like the fleshly human body that we have.

Finally from what the Lord told the Sadducees that in the resurrection there is no marriage, hence there is no functional purpose for sexual organs and in that regard the resurrection body is different as earth is to heaven. Paul even writes that it is sown in corruption as a terrestrial earthy body but it is raised without corruption as a heavenly body.

I know that there is going around the orthodox teaching that limb will be joined to limb and eye socket to eye socket and the person that was bodily in the earthly body will somehow respawn. My question will be, what state in the corruption of the earthly body state will the ressurectee be raised? As a 5 years old, a 30 year old earthy body or in the diseased state of the body before it died to be put in the grave?

You see this orthodox teaching is not carried in my church because it is not what the fathers intended it to imply.

Lastly the context of the departed being with Christ doesn't prevent them in receiving their eternal inheritance as Paul states, so time that we living in the body are constrained to is not their constraint. In other words why would the departed need to wait for our time line in order to receive their heavenly bodies, it simply makes no sense for them to be put on hold.

That is why the context of the second coming has been grossly misunderstood. The second coming happens literally and uniquely to every departed individual from the first Saint of the harvest Saint Stephan to the last good wine reaped from the harvest at the gleaning (end).

The confusion that I see here is that people are seeing only a one time earthly time based second coming associated with one reaping from the harvest. The confusion also extends to making two events which is the Lord's appearing after a faithful departs to the brilliant coming of the Lord after the sounding of the seventh trumpet when the Lord declares time no longer at the end of the harvest.

Paul writes that the departed look forward to his appearing and Hebrews states that the faithfully inheritance is already laid up to be received only after a witness dies and is judged as a sheep by the Lord for all eyes shall see him and all knees shall bow before him. All peoples of all nations one by one are being brought before his feet in judgement, even those that pierced him and had rejected him from the 1st century all the way until the end of time.
 
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Justme

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This is exactly the false doctrine I'm talking about! How can you not believe that Jesus Christ comes back PHYSICALLY TO JUDGE THE EARTH? This is one of the most horrible doctrines I've heard just now, I did not think this to be a common doctrine. Its denying pure basics.
The reason I do not believe Jesus comes back physically is because He can't! Jesus is a spirit and has been since the tomb.
Acts 10 NASB tells us:
40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
Spirits are invisible to mortals.
Jesus does not have a physical or earthly body and therefore can not appear physically to mortals. John was able to SEE spirits in his vision IN heaven because John was in the spirit.
Jesus did come back to Paul in Acts 9 but again Jesus was a spirit and appeared only to Paul, the men with Paul saw nothing.
Jesus became spirit again after His death as 1 COR 15:45 states:
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The whole thing is brought together by these verses from 1 COR 15:
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
Here is the heavenly man...
Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

1 Tim 1
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
In your personal second coming experience you will see Jesus as clear as lightning in the east. It will be just YOU and Jesus in the judgment seat of 2 COR 15:10 and that occurs after your death, Hebrews 9:27. By your words you are judged, MATTHEW 18
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
If you are found righteous at that judgment, then 2 COR 5:1 cuts in:
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Nothing in any of this allows for a physical visible return of Jesus. Jesus returns to believers as sure as sun follows rain, but NOT physical. Eternal things, which Jesus is can not be seen and in fact , nothing that is eternal can be seen:
2 COR 4:
18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

So as I see it there is no doubt that the bible teaches a literal return of Jesus Christ to every person who has ever lived on earth (since Adam) or who will ever live on earth until the sun burns out. That return , however, occurs in the spiritual realm after death and is unseen by any living mortal human being.

Justme
 
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Berean777

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Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

"He is coming with the clouds and all eyes shall see him"

The white clouds is the symbol of the angelic hosts of heaven who are the many Holy ones that accompany him in his Father's house, the third heaven.

So in that regard all eyes will see him, because as all men are destined to die once, then every man and women will be presented before the Lord for judgement of the works done in the body.

Where I differentiate from my other brothers and sisters is, that I believe that the resurrection form is not just a spirit or a conscious thought, rather it is a real and tangible heavenly body that is purpose built for the third heaven dwelling. You see in the epistle of John he writes that he doesn't know what that experience will be like. So in this regard there must be a real and tangible interface to the soul, a garment to wear that will enable us to experience that realm.

I believe that it is a real and tangible body that will dwell in a real and tangible third heaven. Jesus would say his Father's house has many rooms if it were not so then why would he be making this comment in the first place. Essentially the resurrection form must be real and tangible that we in our earthly body cannot see nor experience until we put the it on and be reunited with the Lord.
 
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mmksparbud

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(1Th 4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(1Th 4:16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(2Th 2:8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Not quiet, not spiritual, not secret.
 
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cgaviria

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The reason I do not believe Jesus comes back physically is because He can't! Jesus is a spirit and has been since the tomb.
Acts 10 NASB tells us:
40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
Spirits are invisible to mortals.
Jesus does not have a physical or earthly body and therefore can not appear physically to mortals. John was able to SEE spirits in his vision IN heaven because John was in the spirit.
Jesus did come back to Paul in Acts 9 but again Jesus was a spirit and appeared only to Paul, the men with Paul saw nothing.
Jesus became spirit again after His death as 1 COR 15:45 states:
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The whole thing is brought together by these verses from 1 COR 15:
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
Here is the heavenly man...
Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

1 Tim 1
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
In your personal second coming experience you will see Jesus as clear as lightning in the east. It will be just YOU and Jesus in the judgment seat of 2 COR 15:10 and that occurs after your death, Hebrews 9:27. By your words you are judged, MATTHEW 18
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
If you are found righteous at that judgment, then 2 COR 5:1 cuts in:
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Nothing in any of this allows for a physical visible return of Jesus. Jesus returns to believers as sure as sun follows rain, but NOT physical. Eternal things, which Jesus is can not be seen and in fact , nothing that is eternal can be seen:
2 COR 4:
18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

So as I see it there is no doubt that the bible teaches a literal return of Jesus Christ to every person who has ever lived on earth (since Adam) or who will ever live on earth until the sun burns out. That return , however, occurs in the spiritual realm after death and is unseen by any living mortal human being.

Justme

If that were true then how are these scriptures possible....?

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe. Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:27-29)

This happened after Jesus Christ died and was resurrected. They were able to even touch his new body, not just see it in person.

Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead. (John 21:13-14)

Again, they saw and were able to talk to Jesus after he died and was resurrected.

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11)

And then when he ascended into heaven, it was visually seen by people. And what did the angels say? That in this same visual manner that he ascended, he would descend.

And there are more scriptures proving that Jesus new body could be seen and touched. His second coming is not a metaphor people, it is literal. Just as he literally ascended into the heaven and it was visually seen by all, so will he literally descend that will be visually seen by all on the earth.

@Wgw , this is one prime example where I want to use caps.
 
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