The Saints of Revelation

[Dale]

As I understand Dispensationalism, when you look at the Book of Revelation, the Rapture is supposed to happen in Rev. 4:1, when John is told to “Come up here!” The same people who believe this believe that Revelation is in chronological order, a dubious assumption.


Yet the saints are mentioned a number of times in the rest of Revelation. For instance:


<< This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, 'Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes, says the Spirit, they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.” >>
--Revelation 14: 12-13 NIV


From this passage it is clear that there are saints, Christians, on Earth, and so there is a Church on Earth. These saints are doing “labor,” obeying “commandments,” accumulating “deeds,” are “blessed,” and are destined for “rest.”


According to Dispensationalists, the angels pour out the seven bowls during the seven years of Tribulation. The following passage occurs during that time.


<< Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:
“You are just in these judgments,
you who are and who were, the Holy One,
for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.” >>
--Revelation 16:5-6 NIV


While the previous passage mentions “saints,” here we have “saints and prophets,” and it is clear that some of these are being martyred.


Another passage on martyrdom:


<< I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. >>
--Revelation 17:6 NIV


Here, the presence of “those who bore testimony” is emphasized, along with “saints.”


Yet another passage, talking about Babylon:


<< Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.” >>
--Revelation 18:4 NIV






In this passage, a “voice from heaven” speaks to “my people.” The voice is either God or an angel speaking with Divine authority, and “my people” can only mean God's church on Earth.


There is no sign in any of these passages that the saints, prophets, martyrs, bearers of testimony, or God's people, are recent converts. There is no sign that they only converted to Christianity after a startling and cataclysmic Rapture event. On the contrary, the implication is that many of them are quite learned in what Christianity is and bear eloquent testimony to it. It doesn't look like these are people who decided that they wanted to be Christians in the midst of end-time chaos and persecution, when study would be virtually impossible.




*


*

 

[Dale]

The notion that the Rapture happens in Revelation 4:1, when John is told to &#8220;Come up here!&#8221; is not a very good idea. The idea of a pre-Trib Rapture is that Christians are physically removed from the earth. It is not at all clear that John's body was taken to heaven for the Revelation. Scholars have always believed that Revelation was a vision, or a series of visions, or that John was taken to heaven in spirit form. There is no need whatever for John to have gone to heaven in the body to be able to write Revelation. In the same way, the Apostle Paul said that he had been taken to heaven in spirit but never made any claim to have gone there in the body and returned.


Another reason is that for the rest of Revelation, John has an angel guide but there is no one else with him. There is no mention of anyone else coming up to heaven with him, either in body or in spirit. There is no mention of his angel guide talking to anyone else. John doesn't see the Raptured meeting Christ or being welcomed into heaven.


I am not seeing any sign of a pre-Trib Rapture in Revelation.


*


*

 

[Bible2]

Dale said in post 2:

The notion that the Rapture happens in Revelation 4:1, when John is told to &#8220;Come up here!&#8221; is not a very good idea.

That's right.

Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason that the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church, in the general sense, will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

 

[Biblewriter]

As I understand Dispensationalism, when you look at the Book of Revelation, the Rapture is supposed to happen in Rev. 4:1, when John is told to &#8220;Come up here!&#8221; The same people who believe this believe that Revelation is in chronological order, a dubious assumption.


Yet the saints are mentioned a number of times in the rest of Revelation. For instance:


<< This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, 'Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.&#8221;
&#8220;Yes, says the Spirit, they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.&#8221; >>
--Revelation 14: 12-13 NIV


From this passage it is clear that there are saints, Christians, on Earth, and so there is a Church on Earth. These saints are doing &#8220;labor,&#8221; obeying &#8220;commandments,&#8221; accumulating &#8220;deeds,&#8221; are &#8220;blessed,&#8221; and are destined for &#8220;rest.&#8221;


According to Dispensationalists, the angels pour out the seven bowls during the seven years of Tribulation. The following passage occurs during that time.


<< Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:
&#8220;You are just in these judgments,
you who are and who were, the Holy One,
for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.&#8221; >>
--Revelation 16:5-6 NIV


While the previous passage mentions &#8220;saints,&#8221; here we have &#8220;saints and prophets,&#8221; and it is clear that some of these are being martyred.


Another passage on martyrdom:


<< I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. >>
--Revelation 17:6 NIV


Here, the presence of &#8220;those who bore testimony&#8221; is emphasized, along with &#8220;saints.&#8221;


Yet another passage, talking about Babylon:


<< Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
&#8220;Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.&#8221; >>
--Revelation 18:4 NIV






In this passage, a &#8220;voice from heaven&#8221; speaks to &#8220;my people.&#8221; The voice is either God or an angel speaking with Divine authority, and &#8220;my people&#8221; can only mean God's church on Earth.


There is no sign in any of these passages that the saints, prophets, martyrs, bearers of testimony, or God's people, are recent converts. There is no sign that they only converted to Christianity after a startling and cataclysmic Rapture event. On the contrary, the implication is that many of them are quite learned in what Christianity is and bear eloquent testimony to it. It doesn't look like these are people who decided that they wanted to be Christians in the midst of end-time chaos and persecution, when study would be virtually impossible.




*


*

In the first place, as one who has been a leader among dispensationalists for more than forty years, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire movement say that Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture.

But that is a side issue. The basic argument here is that the word "saints" necessarily means "Christians."

This is plainly incorrect, as can be seen in the following passages of scripture, not even one of which could even possibly refer to Christians.

3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Deuteronomy 33:3
9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
1 Samuel 2:9
41 Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.
2 Chronicles 6:41
3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
Psalm 16:3
4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Psalm 30:4
23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Psalm 31:23
9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.
Psalm 34:9
28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psalm 37:28
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
Psalm 50:5
9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.
Psalm 52:9
2 The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.
Psalm 79:2
8 I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.
Psalm 85:8
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
Psalm 89:5
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
Psalm 89:7
10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 97:10
15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Psalm 116:15
9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
Psalm 132:9
16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
Psalm 132:16
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
Psalm 145:10
14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.
Psalm 148:14
1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Psalm 149:1
5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psalm 149:5
9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Psalm 149:9
8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
Proverbs 2:8
12 Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.
Hosea 11:12

 

[Douggg]

In the first place, as one who has been a leader among dispensationalists for more than forty years, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire movement say that Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture.

But that is a side issue. The basic argument here is that the word "saints" necessarily means "Christians."

This is plainly incorrect, as can be seen in the following passages of scripture, not even one of which could even possibly refer to Christians.

3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Deuteronomy 33:3
9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
1 Samuel 2:9
41 Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.
2 Chronicles 6:41
3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
Psalm 16:3
4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Psalm 30:4
23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Psalm 31:23
9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.
Psalm 34:9
28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psalm 37:28
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
Psalm 50:5
9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.
Psalm 52:9
2 The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.
Psalm 79:2
8 I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.
Psalm 85:8
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
Psalm 89:5
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
Psalm 89:7
10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 97:10
15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Psalm 116:15
9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
Psalm 132:9
16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
Psalm 132:16
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
Psalm 145:10
14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.
Psalm 148:14
1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Psalm 149:1
5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psalm 149:5
9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Psalm 149:9
8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
Proverbs 2:8
12 Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.
Hosea 11:12

Hi James, anyone in heaven called saints are there only because they have received Jesus as their savior.

Them who were formerly saints in the old testament are seen in heaven in Revelation because Jesus while his body was in the tomb, went to the place of the dead and preached to them there and set them free, which at that time, thereabouts, after Jesus had ascended to heaven to present himself as the perfect sacrifice, their souls went to heaven.

Whether the rapture had taken place, and the 24 elders were in their raptured/resurrected bodies or not a person could argue over I suppose. But the fact that they are in heaven is only because they had themselves received the gospel.

 

[Douggg]

<< This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, 'Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.&#8221;
&#8220;Yes, says the Spirit, they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.&#8221; >>
--Revelation 14: 12-13 NIV


From this passage it is clear that there are saints, Christians, on Earth, and so there is a Church on Earth. These saints are doing &#8220;labor,&#8221; obeying &#8220;commandments,&#8221; accumulating &#8220;deeds,&#8221; are &#8220;blessed,&#8221; and are destined for &#8220;rest.&#8221;

Hi Dale, I think the argument being made is that the word "church" does not appear in the great tribulation passages. So, the argument is that them of the church of Philadelphia are raptured before the great tribulation begins.

The argument is not based on the term "saints". Saints in Revelation are Christians. However, the argument is that saints after the great tribulation begins are not the church. Which for dispensationalists, as I understand it, the church age ends with the rapture.

I am "anytime rapture" view, btw.... not one of the ______trib rapture views. Which the "anytime rapture" view is the rapture can happen anytime between now and when it actually takes place.

 

[shturt678s]

That's right.

Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason that the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church, in the general sense, will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18

Rev.6:2-9:21 has been coming to pass to the point that we are almost at the very end with the one Return of Jesus, ie, the end, nothing in the future from this point except the new heaven and new earth joined. We also have the personal loosing of Satan which will be soon also

and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

Old Jack's opinion,

btw always appreciate you and your views

 

[Dale]

Rev.6:2-9:21 has been coming to pass to the point that we are almost at the very end with the one Return of Jesus, ie, the end, nothing in the future from this point except the new heaven and new earth joined. We also have the personal loosing of Satan which will be soon also



Old Jack's opinion,

btw always appreciate you and your views

I can tell you go out of your way to be nice.

I would have assumed that Satan is already loose. It looks that way from where I am.

*

*

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi Dale, I think the argument being made is that the word "church" does not appear in the great tribulation passages. So, the argument is that them of the church of Philadelphia are raptured before the great tribulation begins.

The argument is not based on the term "saints". Saints in Revelation are Christians. However, the argument is that saints after the great tribulation begins are not the church. Which for dispensationalists, as I understand it, the church age ends with the rapture.

I am "anytime rapture" view, btw.... not one of the ______trib rapture views. Which the "anytime rapture" view is the rapture can happen anytime between now and when it actually takes place.

You seem to be missing the entire point of the thread, and of my answer.

The OP claimed that the presence of "saints" on the earth during the troubles of the Revelation proves that the church will still be there.

My point was that the word "saints" does not necessarily mean "Christians," for it was repeatedly used of Israelites long before the time of Christ. So the presence of "saints" on the earth (not in heaven) in the Revelation does not disprove the concept of a pre-tribuation rapture.

 

[Dale]

Biblewriter in post #4:
"In the first place, as one who has been a leader among dispensationalists for more than forty years, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire movement say that Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture."

So there's no Rapture in Revelation?


*

*

 

[shturt678s]

I can tell you go out of your way to be nice.

I would have assumed that Satan is already loose. It looks that way from where I am.

*

*

It sure looks that way to me too, however when this occurs from the pre-modern Lutheran view the Sanctuary is closed (Rev.15:8), and no one else can come into the Kingdom of God including my loved ones and little ones that haven't quite made it yet.

We're right on the precipice where most think it's all grace, ie, astonishing!

Old Jack that does have to watch his rhetoric sarcasm at times - lol with you.

 

[shturt678s]

Biblewriter in post #4:
"In the first place, as one who has been a leader among dispensationalists for more than forty years, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire movement say that Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture."

So there's no Rapture in Revelation?


*

*

Saints = Una-Sancta = Christians in Revelation, ie, my opinion.

The down side, ie, "7" different 'raptures,' ie, the end of the world in "7" different places in Revelation - visions are say, in sync.

Old out of sync Jack

 

[Douggg]

You seem to be missing the entire point of the thread, and of my answer.

The OP claimed that the presence of "saints" on the earth during the troubles of the Revelation proves that the church will still be there.

My point was that the word "saints" does not necessarily mean "Christians," for it was repeatedly used of Israelites long before the time of Christ. So the presence of "saints" on the earth (not in heaven) in the Revelation does not disprove the concept of a pre-tribuation rapture.

But in Revelation, saints does mean Christians.

The fallacy in Dale's argument is in the saints in the great tribulation passages being Christians, thus Dale is equating them to being the Church. That is the failed proof.

Simply because the "saints" in the great tribulation passages in Revelation are Christians does not make them the Church, because they would have become Christians after the Church is gone (in a pre-great tribulation rapture).... since church is not mentioned in the great tribulation passages.

pre-tribulation rapture is actually a misnomer of sorts, as it really should be pre-seventieth week rapture.

 

[Dale]

BibleWriter in post #4:
<< In the first place, as one who has been a leader among dispensationalists for more than forty years, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire movement say that Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture. >>



Bible Prophecy site:
<< Revelation 4:1 shows the pre tribulation rapture
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. >>



This site goes on in the same vein for some length.



Link:
Revelation 4; The Pre Tribulation Rapture



*



*

 

[Dale]

But in Revelation, saints does mean Christians.

The fallacy in Dale's argument is in the saints in the great tribulation passages being Christians, thus Dale is equating them to being the Church. That is the failed proof.

Simply because the "saints" in the great tribulation passages in Revelation are Christians does not make them the Church, because they would have become Christians after the Church is gone (in a pre-great tribulation rapture).... since church is not mentioned in the great tribulation passages.

pre-tribulation rapture is actually a misnomer of sorts, as it really should be pre-seventieth week rapture.

“pre-seventieth week rapture” is practically incomprehensible to those who aren't Dispensationalists.



Douggg, you are apparently saying that in Revelation, the saints are not the church, or individual saints do not add up to a church.
Here is my problem with that.

19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
--Matthew 18:19-20 NIV



Why does Christ's promise in Matthew 18:20 cease to operate?



*



*

 

[Dale]

<< In the first place, as one who has been a leader among dispensationalists for more than forty years, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire movement say that Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture.

But that is a side issue. The basic argument here is that the word "saints" necessarily means "Christians." >>

Maybe you can tell us what Dispensationalism is. I have read books by Dispensationalists and I still can't define it except to say that it is a real mess.

*

*

 

[Bible2]

Dale said in post 16:

Maybe you can tell us what Dispensationalism is.

Dispensationalism seems to be based on the idea Ephesians 3:2 refers to a period of time (an age of grace, or church age) which will end when the future tribulation begins, and which doesn't include Israel.

But nothing in Ephesians 3:2, or in other verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b, and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

Dale said in post 16:

Maybe you can tell us what Dispensationalism is.

Dispensationalism sets up a mutual exclusiveness between the church and Israel.

But the Bible shows that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Dale said in post 16:

Maybe you can tell us what Dispensationalism is.

Dispensationalism teaches a pre-tribulation rapture.

But the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20) but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Dale]

Dougg,
<< The fallacy in Dale's argument is in the saints in the great tribulation passages being Christians, thus Dale is equating them to being the Church. That is the failed proof. >>


Two Christians + the Holy Spirit = a Church
The Holy Spirit is Omnipresent.


<< pre-tribulation rapture is actually a misnomer of sorts, as it really should be pre-seventieth week rapture. >>

Terms like “pre-seventieth week rapture” probably won't be understood by people who aren't Dispensationalists.


*



*

 

[Dale]

Reply to Bible2:
<< And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23) >>



21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign Lord.
--Ezekiel 47: 21-23 NIV


Thanks for pointing out this passage.


<< So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). >>

12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Revelation 21: 12 NIV


This is a good verse to quote to those who say that Israel is no longer relevant.


<< A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7). >>

These verses talk about prayer but they don't say anything about the tribes of Israel.


*


*

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In the first place, as one who has been a leader among dispensationalists for more than forty years, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire movement say that Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture.

But that is a side issue. The basic argument here is that the word "saints" necessarily means "Christians."

This is plainly incorrect, as can be seen in the following passages of scripture, not even one of which could even possibly refer to Christians.........................

40yrs!!!!
When you come to the truth of Preterism, the truth will set you free, but it is like a RC turning Protestant, gotta get rid of a lot of excess baggage.............

http://graceonlinelibrary.org/dispensationalism/
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place...........
No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…

I could use some more views on this "rapture" thread

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-4-showing-in-revelation-if-so-where.8073710/

Is the Rapture shown in 1Thess 4 showing in Revelation? If so, where?

Discuss please..........

1Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.