The Rapture theory is true?

[keras]

Paul wanted to attain the resurrection while in this body/life.

That was his desire, not what will actually happen.

Consider, Paul said that we are absent from the body when we are with the Lord.

That is not what Paul said.
When we are dead, we 'sleep' in the grave. Hebrews 9:27

Paul's prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is about the time after the Millennium, when those worthy will receive immortality and go into Eternity with God.

 

[brmicke]

Please explain this verse,

2 Cor 5:6¶Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

I phrased it this way --

Consider, Paul said that we are absent from the body when we are with the Lord.

You said - That is not what Paul said.

How do the two thoughts differ?

 

[Jake Arsenal]

I recommend everyone who wants to fully understand these things to prayerfully consider all of Matthew 24&25. They are one series of teachings that includes several parables.

Lean not on your own understanding, but let the Holy Spirit instruct you.

 

[brmicke]

Understanding a parable begins with understanding that it's purpose is to conceal the truth as Jesus shows in Mk 4:11-12. Therefore, to try and literally interpret a parable is inaccurate. This is why there are so many strange doctrinal positions.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

As i mentioned 1 Thess 4:13 Paul addresses the subject of "sleep". In 5:6 He instructs them to not fall asleep, meaning it is not referring to physical death.

Just because the word sleep is sometimes referring to death in scripture does not mean that the word always refers to physical death, some times the word refers to spiritual slumber. As the following example shows.

Ephesians 5:14 ASV — Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee.

A person must first recognize that referring to the Day of the Lord (judgment, Is 13:6) as the Second Coming (Salvation, Heb 9:28) is a foundational mistake. They are clearly not the same event.

To abandon tradition/confusion is hard but it brings clarity.

 

[keras]

Please explain this verse,

2 Cor 5:6¶Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

I phrased it this way --

Consider, Paul said that we are absent from the body when we are with the Lord.

You said - That is not what Paul said.

How do the two thoughts differ?

2 Corinthians 5:6-7 ....We know that so long as we are at home in the body, we are exiles from the Lord. Faith is our guide, not sight. REBible

Paul never said anyone would go to be with the Lord in heaven.

 

[Biblewriter]

2 Corinthians 5:6-7 ....We know that so long as we are at home in the body, we are exiles from the Lord. Faith is our guide, not sight. REBible

Paul never said anyone would go to be with the Lord in heaven.

What translation is the "REBible"?

 

[brmicke]

1 Thess 5:2 shows that these verses pertain to "The Day of the Lord" coming upon the sleepers. However the discipline associated with the "Day" does not overtake Paul or those awake.

Just as in 1 Cor 11:32, discipline is temporary as is indicated in these verses by the wakened sleepers joining those who did not fall asleep in 1 Thess 4:17.

1 Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The Lord forbids the correction of the sleepers by those remaining awake (Jesus does not want sinful brethren to be influenced by willfully sinful Christians) He Himself decends in judgement designed to correct or wake the sleepers, 1 Thess 4:15.

1 Thess 4:15 ¶For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (come before, Strongs # 5348) them which are asleep.

The formerly backslidden believers have been corrected by the Lords disclpline and "rise" from their sinful condition, Col 3:1.

Col 3:1¶If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Paul says that those who remain alive/awake are not to "come before" those who are asleep/willfully disobedient.

In 2 Thess 2:2 Paul tells us that that the "Day" will not come unless an individual Christian falls away or willfully backslides.

2 Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin (man who is involved in sin) be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5¶Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (My comment - Don't you remenber that I (Paul) commented on this in 1 Thess 4:13-5:11.

This is the truth behind the misguided "rapture" theory.

Man Of Sin | Let Us Reason (brmicke.com)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

2 Corinthians 5:6-7 ....We know that so long as we are at home in the body, we are exiles from the Lord. Faith is our guide, not sight. REBible

Paul never said anyone would go to be with the Lord in heaven.

Wrong. He talked about how he was torn between staying physically/bodily alive to help people who needed him and departing his body (physically dying) so that he could be with the Lord.

Phillipians 1:20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Just like in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul indicated that a believer, like himself, being separated from their body (via physical death) would result in being in the Lord's presence. That's why he indicated that dying would be much better than staying alive since he knew he (his soul) would be in Christ's presence the moment he died and nothing is better than that.

 

[keras]

What translation is the "REBible"?

Revised English Bible; Oxford Press 1989.
It is the best translation to convey the correct meaning of scripture.

Paul indicated that a believer, like himself, being separated from their body (via physical death) would result in being in the Lord's presence. That's why he indicated that dying would be much better than staying alive since he knew he (his soul) would be in Christ's presence the moment he died and nothing is better than that.

This idea contradicts much scripture.
We Christians are spiritually in Jesus' Presence now. Matthew 28:19-20
But we never leave the earth, so only when Jesus returns, will we be physically in His Presence.

Hebrews 9:21 says that we die and then comes Judgment.
When is the Judgment? Revelation 20:11-15 - AFTER the Millennium.
Daniel 12:2 proves this.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revised English Bible; Oxford Press 1989.
It is the best translation to convey the correct meaning of scripture.

This idea contradicts much scripture.

No, it doesn't contradict any scripture.

We Christians are spiritually in Jesus' Presence now. Matthew 28:19-20
But we never leave the earth, so only when Jesus returns, will we be physically in His Presence.

Where do you think the souls are that John saw in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20 if not in heaven?

Hebrews 9:21 says that we die and then comes Judgment.

It's Hebrews 9:27 and it doesn't mean that people have no consciousness in between that time. It just means that our eternal destinies (new heavens and new earth or lake of fire) are set once we die and there's nothing we can do to change that and everyone will be sent to their final eternal destinations at the judgment.

When is the Judgment? Revelation 20:11-15 - AFTER the Millennium.
Daniel 12:2 proves this.

Of course, but that doesn't mean no one who dies is conscious until then. If you read about Christ's transfiguration you can see that Moses and Elijah were present there and Jesus was talking to them. If your false belief in soul sleep was true then how could Jesus have been talking to dead people? Also, physically dead people are portrayed as being conscious in Luke 16:19-31 and Revelation 6:91-11 as well.

 

[brmicke]

Keras - the reason you think that the reference to the "absence from the body" in 2 Cor 5:6 contradicts scripture is because, in your mind, you think that a Spiritual body is something a person has after physical death.

When Paul speaks of a body it should be remembered that He also said that this corruptible (Here scripture refers our earthly body) must put on incorruptibility in 1 Cor 15:53. There is no mention of our having to die in order to accomplish this, unless you take into account dying to the flesh, as Paul introduces the concept in 1 Cor 15:31 (22 verses earlier). This incorruption is put on as we "cast our eyes towards Jesus" as the following link explains.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Brmicke

This corruption putting on incorruption is a reference to our putting on Christ - Ro 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

When He mentions the body in 1 Cor 15 for example He is still referring the the Spiritual body, meaning a physical body indwelt/governed by the Holy Spirit, similar to the body that Jesus had while He was on earth as is mentioned in Philippians 3:21.

Paul wanted to put on the same spiritual body in Phil 3:11-21, He simply used different words to express it.

Jesus was crucified on earth and was raised from the dead on earth (refer to Col 3:1).
Then He ascended to Heaven after His physical death on earth.

We are to walk as Jesus walked and according to His pattern we are to be raised from the dead while we are in physical bodies and on earth as is mentioned in Col 3:1.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Php 3:21 who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself.

As you can see Paul wanted to attain to the resurrection from the dead while He was alive and in still in His physical body.

1 Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[Timtofly]

Keras - the reason you think that the reference to the "absence from the body" in 2 Cor 5:6 contradicts scripture is because, in your mind, you think that a Spiritual body is something a person has after physical death.

When Paul speaks of a body it should be remembered that He also said that this corruptible (Here scripture refers our earthly body) must put on incorruptibility in 1 Cor 15:53. There is no mention of our having to die in order to accomplish this, unless you take into account dying to the flesh, as Paul introduces the concept in 1 Cor 15:31 (22 verses earlier). This incorruption is put on as we "cast our eyes towards Jesus" as the following link explains.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Brmicke

This corruption putting on incorruption is a reference to our putting on Christ - Ro 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

When He mentions the body in 1 Cor 15 for example He is still referring the the Spiritual body, meaning a physical body indwelt/governed by the Holy Spirit, similar to the body that Jesus had while He was on earth as is mentioned in Philippians 3:21.

Paul wanted to put on the same spiritual body in Phil 3:11-21, He simply used different words to express it.

Jesus was crucified on earth and was raised from the dead on earth (refer to Col 3:1).
Then He ascended to Heaven after His physical death on earth.

We are to walk as Jesus walked and according to His pattern we are to be raised from the dead while we are in physical bodies and on earth as is mentioned in Col 3:1.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Php 3:21 who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself.

As you can see Paul wanted to attain to the resurrection from the dead while He was alive and in still in His physical body.

1 Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Paul also places this at the Second Coming. Applying a physical body as only a spiritual process contradicts Scripture.

Christ is physical in Paradise now. Not just applying some spiritual truth to a corruptible body. Because Christ has a physical body in Paradise since 30AD, so do all members of the church have a physical body in Paradise.

The Armour of our warfare is not the spiritual application of an ongoing physical process in Paradise upon physical death. Two separate ideas. We do not put on the incorruptible body here on earth. We put on the Holy Spirit as a spiritual application.

We only put on the permanent incorruptible body when the soul leaves this corruptible body to return to dust, never to be used again. The soul cannot enter Paradise with a corruptible body. Nor are those in Paradise waiting for any change to happen to them. Only those alive at the Second Coming will be changed at that moment. The soul in Paradise has already entered a new permanent incorruptible body, that can exist in Paradise.

 

[BABerean2]

Paul also places this at the Second Coming. Applying a physical body as only a spiritual process contradicts Scripture.

Christ is physical in Paradise now. Not just applying some spiritual truth to a corruptible body. Because Christ has a physical body in Paradise since 30AD, so do all members of the church have a physical body in Paradise.

The Armour of our warfare is not the spiritual application of an ongoing physical process in Paradise upon physical death. Two separate ideas. We do not put on the incorruptible body here on earth. We put on the Holy Spirit as a spiritual application.

We only put on the permanent incorruptible body when the soul leaves this corruptible body to return to dust, never to be used again. The soul cannot enter Paradise with a corruptible body. Nor are those in Paradise waiting for any change to happen to them. Only those alive at the Second Coming will be changed at that moment. The soul in Paradise has already entered a new permanent incorruptible body, that can exist in Paradise.

Based on what you are saying, will some people end up with two bodies at the same time in the passage below?

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

.

 

[Timtofly]

Based on what you are saying, will some people end up with two bodies at the same time in the passage below?

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Why would they? What is the first thing a bailiff says when the judge enters a courtroom?

A bailiff is a law enforcement officer charged with maintaining peace and security in a courtroom. Many jurisdictions use deputy sheriffs, and federal courthouses have U.S. marshals. Bailiffs are the ones who typically announce “all rise” as the judge enters and leaves the courtroom.

Do people come to court with two bodies?

 

[Oseas]

You can counsel all you want, but until the power that is now restraining the revealing of the man of sin, preventing him from being revealed before his time is removed - taken out of the way, he is not going to be revealed.

I challenge you to discover WHO is restraining and WHO will be "taken out of the way."

The prophecy about the RESTRAINING be take away, it didn't fulfill yet, of course, but will LITERALLY fulfill henceforward or in days to come, would say in this current decade, and it only after the end of the FIRST half of the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:v.27, actually it will occur when the Abomination of Desolation be established in the 2nd half of the last week, in Israel, for 1290 days.
I would say the current Dispensation of Grace gets to the END with this terrible and SATANIC event, I say through the manifestation of the Jewish false messiah (2Thess.2:v.9), and the establishment of the abomination of desolation in the holy place or sanctuary.

Who is he who now does not let the MAN of sin, SON of perdition, a former Cherub, be manifested among his own people, and also before all the whole Gentilic world? The complete Jewish Bible-CJB says the MAN of sin is at work secretly, in other words-KJV-,"the mystery of iniquity doth already work", "but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining him is out of the way"- CJB.

Well, there are three that bear witness in Earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in One-1 John 5:v.8. The blood is the blood of JESUS that was shed on the cross; the blood of JESUS is the millennial sacrifice of JESUS on the cross that REMAINS until the current time for salvation of souls, AND WILL REMAIN until it BE TAKEN AWAY WHAT WILL HAPPEN ONLY AND ONLY IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE LAST WEEK, WEEK 70th DANIEL 9:V.27, WHOSE EVENT IS NOT SO FAR FROM THESE DAYS, IT MAY OCCUR IN THIS DECADE. The sacrifice of JESUS until the current time lasted around 727000 days-THE DAILY SACRIFICE WILL BE TAKE AWAY BY THE JEWISH FALSE MESSIAH - THE BEAST LIKE A LAMB (Revelation 13:v.11-18 combined with John 5:v.43)- THEN THE PLACE OF THE SANCTUARY WILL BE CAST DOWN, as was prophesied by Daniel. Daniel 7:v.7-8 & 11.

Dan.7:v.7- ...and behold a fourth Beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the Beasts that were before it; and it had (10) ten horns.
v.8 - I considered the (10)horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn,...and, behold, in this (little) horn were eyes like the eyes of MAN, and a mouth speaking great things.
Daniel 8:v.11 says: - 11 Yea, he (the little horn, by his mouth) magnified himself (magnified as God) even to the prince of the host (it is Michael-Revelation 12:v.7), and by him (by the Jewish false messiah-the little horn) the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
The false lamb, the false messiah(John 5:v.43), he is also a Jew, and he is from one of the 10 tribes of Israel, it may be from the tribe of Dan as prophesied Jacob-Genesis 49: v.16-17. The false messiah (John 5:v.43) will rise up from the earth-from Israel-exactly from one of the (10) ten tribes of Israel - HE IS THE LITTLE HORN.
The false lamb, the false messiah-John 5:v.43- has two horns. Two horns represent the two kingdoms of Israel, but he will rise up from one of the 10 tribes of Israel, as prophesied Jacob. Gen.49:v.16-17

Actually, the SACRIFICE of JESUS SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY when the Beast like a lamb, the MAN of sin and son of perdition(the little horn) sits in the temple of God-JERUSALEM-,shewing himself that he is God-2 Thes.2:v.4-, then the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place, THE DAILY SACRIFICE OF JESUS WILL BE TAKE AWAY BY THE JEWISH FALSE MESSIAH in the second half of the last week by 1260 plus 30 days, I would say the current Dispensation of Grace gets to the END with this terrible and SATANIC event through the Jewish false messiah (2Thess.2:v.9), and the establishment of the abomination of desolation in the holy place or sanctuary.

Revelation 11:v.1-2 reveals how will be the FIRST half of the last week (1260 days), ended the FIRST half, the false messiah, an esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist messiah, will be enthroned in JERUSALEM-spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, for 1290 days, and the sanctuary will be cast down.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan.12:v.12 - Yeah, day 1335, the Ineffable, Wonderful, Indescribable, Unspeakable day, the day 1.335. Hallelujaaah!!!

 

[Oseas]

JOEL 3:V. 9 - 21

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the Lord dwelleth in Zion.

 

[FredVB]

It could be seen by believers if they looked how godless cities are, which they should not stay with. They could be away from those in groups growing things and living sustainably.

 

[FredVB]

We who are believers will be caught up with those believers who have lived before to be with Christ our Lord indeed before the God's judgment in this life comes on those unrepentant of all the world, with all the rebellion, destructiveness, and wickedness. But there is no good basis to say that being caught up next before other things happen, believers will just be gone when taken to not be here when the judgment comes.

We are part of the contribution to destructiveness to this earth, which God hates, and will not be taken to miss the worsening conditions. We as believers before us have will still see troubles ahead, and we had involvement in that.

Believers are in the system and generally can't see it with living in it and hearing only what is spoken in it. Leaders in Christianity did not know so they made their best guesses, with using passages, and would tell followers in their church that Mystery Babylon was another church. Most believers then understand it that way, and speak for that. Others make their own best guesses with passages they use, and figure out it is one certain city, or another. But Revelation 18 is still mostly disregarded, where it is shown what is characterizing what it calls Mystery Babylon. And it is showing that it is all cities of civilization. That remains a mystery because believers generally are not ready and don't want to learn that where they are is Mystery Babylon, that they should get out from there. And we do not belong in Mystery Babylon. If we do not listen to others interpretations, and that is what they are, and learn more about what is going on, the fulfilling of prophecies will be seen, and telling signs are all around that cities of civilization are all collectively the Mystery Babylon that will fall and collapse. It is not godly, and never was, but believers who are prospering (not all are though) are materialistic along with the culture around them, and would not just be willing to depart from what they have here, even while it is with what there is destruction to this earth from it that God hates (Revelation 11:18) along with all the exploitation Revelation 18 speaks of. God never started or endorsed the civilization that comes to this, it was never godly. Believers need to come out, any who would not continue to be a part of that should come out, and live in godly ways separately without destructiveness to the earth around them.

 

[BobRyan]

We who are believers will be caught up with those believers who have lived before to be with Christ our Lord indeed before the God's judgment in this life comes on those unrepentant of all the world, with all the rebellion, destructiveness, and wickedness. But there is no good basis to say that being caught up next before other things happen, believers will just be gone when taken to not be here when the judgment comes.

We are part of the contribution to destructiveness to this earth, which God hates, and will not be taken to miss the worsening conditions. We as believers before us have will still see troubles ahead,

That is what Matt 24 says - the rapture happens after the tribulation

Matt 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul also places this at the Second Coming. Applying a physical body as only a spiritual process contradicts Scripture.

Christ is physical in Paradise now. Not just applying some spiritual truth to a corruptible body. Because Christ has a physical body in Paradise since 30AD, so do all members of the church have a physical body in Paradise.

All those saints who like Christ have been bodily resurrected and taken up to heaven - have a physical body like Christ in Paradise.