The practice of healing and working of miracles

[Guojing]

If they responded to GOD prepping the heart and they reached up to GOD speaking out from the heart,.... then yes, I wouldn't see why not.

So what makes healing different, if both salvation and healing comes from the atonement?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

God did not want Paul's impediment to be taken away even when it was covered in the atonement.

It was not because of " Ignorance of the provision. or denial of the provision...." in Pauls case.

Was the thorn in Paul's flesh a malady that needed healing though?

 

[ARBITER01]

So what makes healing different, if both salvation and healing comes from the atonement?

I'm not one of these individuals that spouts out about the atonement and such all the time. Everything is still discretionary on GOD's part in my view.

In relation to healing though, we are talking about His power. It's not something that I can automatically take control of. A whole heap of people over the years have made that assumption and mistake, and still do.

For instance, back in the 90's a big hurricane was approaching Hawaii. I was stationed there while I was in the Navy. I felt that I could ask GOD about praying against it, and I did. He said yes I can pray to stop it.

I began praying by The Spirit and felt The Holy Spirit lift my hands and begin pushing something away from me. I prayed like this for maybe a couple minutes and then stopped. The news reported the hurricane had dissipated out at sea. I watched the movement of it as they talked about it on TV, and it actually came up to Hawaii, stopped, and then moved back away from the island. From there it dissolved.

That was my witness from The Lord of having the working of miracles gift inside me. I asked, He decided to do it, and worked through me by that gift to make it happen. I didn't try to do it on my own.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

God did not want Paul's impediment to be taken away even when it was covered in the atonement.

It was not because of " Ignorance of the provision. or denial of the provision...." in Pauls case.

Paul himself said it:
2 Corinthians 12:7 KJV
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

And it was not sickness: it was exactly what it says it was. "A messenger of Satan to buffet him, let he be exalted above measure.

Nothing to do with sickness. And what did the Lord tell Paul?

Paul asked, and the Lord told Him repeated:

2 Corinthians 12:8-9 KJV
8. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Weymouth even translates the "it" depart as "rid me of him."

2 Corinthians 12:8 Weymouth
8. As for this, three times have I besought the Lord to rid me of him;

Now I realize that some hold that the Lord's "sufficient Grace" somehow equates to a "no." Which is, again, a part of the problem. When people pray for things if they expect His"sufficient grace" to equate to a "no," and they receive exactly what they expect: a no.

In Paul's case, the answer was exactly what the Lord said... "my grace is sufficient for thee. "
We have to ask, "sufficient to do what?"
Obviously, the answer is just a matter of reading comprehension - Sufficient to do what Paul was asking for... to have the demonic spirit depart from him. The Lord told him this three times.

Paul expands on what the "weakness" was. It is persecution that was raised up by the demonic spirit. Again. Word for word from the passage:

2 Corinthians 12:10 KJV
10. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

In the end, the whole point of Paul having to endure these troubles is because of pride. To temper his pride, a messenger from satan followed him around to stir up problems in his wake—nothing to do with sickness. As long as Paul had a pride problem, he would be weakened so that the pride would not be in the way of his ministering.

 

[Guojing]

I'm not one of these individuals that spouts out about the atonement and such all the time. Everything is still discretionary on GOD's part in my view.

In relation to healing though, we are talking about His power. It's not something that I can automatically take control of. A whole heap of people over the years have made that assumption and mistake, and still do.

So can I summed up your view regarding salvation and healing as follows?

For salvation, so long as an unbeliever believes in the gospel, he is immediately saved

For healing, even if a believer believes in healing, healing "is still discretionary on GOD's part"

 

[sunlover1]

Carl is absolutely right on this.

It is always GOD's decision on what He wants to do with His power, and we have to hear from Him, not try to act on our belief.

All power is "given" us by God, so it's all God, regardless of anything any of us may think or say.
But He did "give" it already.
So if we have been given that, isn't it up to us to move on it, by "deciding" to walk out our faith?
He said we'd heal the sick, right?

 

[ARBITER01]

All power is "given" us by God, so it's all God, regardless of anything any of us may think or say.
But He did "give" it already.
So if we have been given that, isn't it up to us to move on it, by "deciding" to walk out our faith?
He said we'd heal the sick, right?

Well,... I tend to think differently.

Until The Holy Spirit is resting upon us in power, we don't have it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Was the thorn in Paul's flesh a malady that needed healing though?

My point was one can't argue that just because any matter is covered by the atonement it follows that it is God's will to remedy it immediately, no matter what it is.

 

[Carl Emerson]

All power is "given" us by God, so it's all God, regardless of anything any of us may think or say.
But He did "give" it already.
So if we have been given that, isn't it up to us to move on it, by "deciding" to walk out our faith?
He said we'd heal the sick, right?

Then why did the gathered pray "extend YOUR hand to heal" in Acts 4:30

 

[ByTheSpirit]

My point was one can't argue that just because any matter is covered by the atonement it follows that it is God's will to remedy it immediately, no matter what it is.

Maybe, but in making that point you may have used an example that doesn't fit the narrative. No one knows if Paul's thorn in the flesh was a sickness or not. I doubt it was, for what does the text say?

I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 2 Corinthians 12:7 (BSB)

A messenger of Satan...

My understanding is it wasn't some sickness, but rather a demon who was tormenting Paul about his past. Not that Paul had a demon, don't misunderstand me, but it was a demonic messenger that was using Paul's past to try and bring him down. And oddly enough, what Satan meant for harm, Jesus used for good. The message weakened Paul to the point where he learned to say through the Holy Spirit, "When I am weak, then I am strong."

So you can't possibly use that to say that in this context, because it doesn't fit.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Then why did the gathered pray "extend YOUR hand to heal" in Acts 4:30

Both can be true. It can be God's power that heals, but a power that He invests in us to use appropriately. Think the parable of the talents. Jesus gave those people talents, yes they were His to begin with and He came back to receive them, but He gave them away. Can it not be true that we can ask God to stretch forth His hand to heal, and at the same time understand that He has given us that power to do so?

Jesus would many times retreat to pray and seek the face of the Father after performing miracles and acts. The scriptures never specifically state why He did so, but we can safely assume from passages like John 5 and John 14 that Jesus acted thus because He knew His power came from the Father.

It's kind of the reason I started this OP which has turned from how should we utilize the power of God to can we utilize the power of God. Now I'm ok with letting the discussion go whatever way it goes as long as it stays somewhat on course, but my original thought remains. How can we see the power of God more frequently?

To me, the answer is through prayer, fasting, and seeking God's face.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

At the end of the day this is where we find ourselves.

When they returned to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd around them, and scribes arguing with them. As soon as all the people saw Jesus, they were filled with awe and ran to greet Him.
“What are you disputing with them?” He asked.
Someone in the crowd replied, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a spirit that makes him mute. Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. I asked Your disciples to drive it out, but they were unable.”
“O unbelieving generation!” Jesus replied. “How long must I remain with you? How long must I put up with you? Bring the boy to Me.”
So they brought him, and seeing Jesus, the spirit immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.
Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has this been with him?”
“From childhood,” he said. “It often throws him into the fire or into the water, trying to kill him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
“If You can?” echoed Jesus. “All things are possible to him who believes!”
Immediately the boy’s father cried out, “I do believe; help my unbelief!”
When Jesus saw that a crowd had come running, He rebuked the unclean spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” He said, “I command you to come out and never enter him again.”
After shrieking and convulsing him violently, the spirit came out. The boy became like a corpse, so that many said, “He is dead.” But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up.
After Jesus had gone into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”
Jesus answered, “This kind cannot come out, except by prayer.” Mark 9:14-29 (BSB)

The disciples didn't have the ability to do something Jesus had given them authority to do, because they weren't praying as they should. Notice, Jesus didn't rebuke them for trying to do something they weren't authorized to do. He didn't say, "I did not give you authority over the demon." No. He rebuked them for their lack of faith, which manifested in their lack of prayer.

Then Jesus told them a parable about their need to pray at all times and not lose heart: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected men. And there was a widow in that town who kept appealing to him, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’
For a while he refused, but later he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor respect men, yet because this widow keeps pestering me, I will give her justice. Then she will stop wearing me out with her perpetual requests.’”
And the Lord said, “Listen to the words of the unjust judge. Will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He continue to defer their help? I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?” Luke 18:1-8 (BSB)

Jesus directly correlates our prayer life with our faith. Those who pray frequently have greater faith than those who do not.

If we want to see healings and miracles more frequently, then we need to be people of prayer.

 

[ARBITER01]

It can be God's power that heals, but a power that He invests in us to use appropriately.

I would disagree somewhat.

GOD can have The Holy Spirit rest upon us in power, as scripture says, but if we are tempted into sin The Holy Spirit will be removed from us. It's a very sacred thing to have Him operating upon us like that, and there are things we need to be very careful about to not create issues between us and GOD.

This is different from quenching The Holy Spirit inside us. To reach the point where GOD can operate the power gifts through us by resting upon us in power is a very pinnacle thing in our lives, and we need to guard it carefully when we reach it.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

if we are tempted into sin The Holy Spirit will be removed from us.

Jesus was tempted yet never failed to operate in the Father's blessing or power.

I think we are all (or mostly) in agreement that God gives the power.

when we reach it

I'd be wary of how that sounds. I don't think you meant it in the way I initially understood it, to mean that I earn God's power. I won't disagree that we have a part to play in operating under the power of God though.

As I've been saying, we must be people of prayer. In my last post, Jesus didn't rebuke the disciples for trying to use authority they didn't possess. He rebukes them for their lack of faith that was manifesting in their lack of prayer. Their lack of prayer & faith led to a deficiency of power so that they could not cast out a demon.

I believe that principle holds not just for the casting out of the demonic, but in all aspects of God's power. Even in the OT, the greatest prophets only saw God's power through prayer. We are the most powerful when we fight and wage war on our proverbial knees

 

[ARBITER01]

Jesus was tempted yet never failed to operate in the Father's blessing or power.

I think we are all (or mostly) in agreement that God gives the power.

There have been saints in the past who learned this lesson the hard way with GOD. We don't take credit for what GOD does through us with the gifts of healings. It is always His decision in these matters and we are just a conduit for His greatness.

I'd be wary of how that sounds. I don't think you meant it in the way I initially understood it, to mean that I earn God's power. I won't disagree that we have a part to play in operating under the power of God though.

As I've been saying, we must be people of prayer. In my last post, Jesus didn't rebuke the disciples for trying to use authority they didn't possess. He rebukes them for their lack of faith that was manifesting in their lack of prayer. Their lack of prayer & faith led to a deficiency of power so that they could not cast out a demon.

I believe that principle holds not just for the casting out of the demonic, but in all aspects of God's power. Even in the OT, the greatest prophets only saw God's power through prayer. We are the most powerful when we fight and wage war on our proverbial knees

Can GOD trust you if He rests His power upon you?

Will you allow folks to praise you until you start looking at yourself instead of GOD?

Trust is earned with GOD. He knows our limitations and wants to excel past them to witness to the world, but He must be able to trust that we have our focus on Him and not ourselves.

So yes, in that sense, it is earned.

 

[sunlover1]

Well,... I tend to think differently.

Until The Holy Spirit is resting upon us in power, we don't have it.

All power is from God
I assumed that as a given.
Not sure what you mean by resting on
On was OT, indwelt new, no?
Id love to hear more if you have some revelation to share

 

[ARBITER01]

Not sure what you mean by resting on
Id love to hear more if you have some revelation to share

Some people find this hard to believe or understand, but The Holy Spirit placed inside of us is not ultimately the power of GOD. Yes He provides us a strength and such inside, but there is another step that Jesus took that we must take also,....

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.

Jesus has the title of Christ/Messiah, that means The Anointed-One in the Greek. We are to seek out and receive from GOD this same sort of anointing upon our heads as Jesus had, if we want to have an office/ministry that involves the power gifts, such as the gifts of healings.

We see Jesus promise this to the disciples,...

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This promise is ours to receive also.

It's not enough to just be filled with The Spirit and have His gifts. The greater gifts of healing, working of miracles, and faith will not operate in our lives to any real extent unless we have The Holy Spirit resting upon us, and that takes His anointing being placed upon our heads first. It is He Who operates them to GOD's glory, not us.

This is what the old Saints had who pursued it, the ones who realized it and had the faith to step beyond what they already had.

 

[sunlover1]

Then why did the gathered pray "extend YOUR hand to heal" in Acts 4:30

Hi Carl.
Seems kind of obvious tho.
Healing comes from God.

 

[Aaron112]

(2) I have a family member that suffers from lower intestine issues, we know the cause, but she had not been able to get relief from a number of Doctors/Specialist.

As she continued to sink into almost not being able to care for herself we had to take action. A few months ago, I contacted Katherine Ruonala's church, her family members and have them praying. I also contacted Bethel Church, many local churches and have a lot of believers praying for her.

The last month or so she has started getting better. She is getting stronger and more active, last week she was heading for the gym for the first time in years. She has a way to go but, we are optimistic for a full recovery, on the uphill for sure. Praise Jesus!

Did you, they, anyone do the research into the ways people in other countries have been recovering their health (yes with prayer and trusting Jesus FIRST) ,
for decades now ... i.e. proven track record ...

 

[Aaron112]

Was the thorn in Paul's flesh a malady that needed healing though?

Did Lazarus in the tomb need healing ?