the Lord Jesus ..is fully God fully man ,...but a question

[Architeuthus]

In Dutch it says: the soul of the flesh is in the blood.

Yes, but since there is no blood in sperm, that's not relevant here.

 

[Ahermit]

Leviticus 17:14 NIV
because the life of every creature is its blood. ...

 

[Alithis]

Well, no, actually. It means that all that stuff you said about "the blood is the life" is irrelevant.

well ,if it(blood ) is irrelevant .. then why is it (blood) the central focus of atonement for sin? seems to me it is not at all irrelevant.

and it is still a digression from the topic ,but of interest.
still , you'll have t explain how the blood type of a father and mother determine the blood type of the baby .. you see, what is in us ..ends up in the baby .. its called genetic its called hereditary its called life passed on by generation..its all the same thing.
And if the life (and the life is in the blood the bible states ) has sin then the sin tainted life ..is passed to the next generation . one cannot be born of the flesh and not have the flesh of the parents inherently in it .
which is why the lord Jesus was not "born " of flesh but of the Spirit . and the word .."became flesh "

Also if your going to Quote .. quote whole posts . when folks start picking little bits out of context the topic just derails at high speed .

 

[Architeuthus]

well ,if it(blood ) is irrelevant

Irrelevant to the OP, since sperm contains no blood.

you'll have t explain how the blood type of a father and mother determine the blood type of the baby

Blood type. That's determined by DNA. DNA and blood are not the same thing.

And if the life (and the life is in the blood the bible states ) has sin then the sin tainted life ..is passed to the next generation . one cannot be born of the flesh and not have the flesh of the parents inherently in it .

You're starting to sound Gnostic.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

this is why it is so important that he was born of a virgin.. no man ,no blood of Adam ,no taint of sin was passed to him .
however my question is Mary.. who was also born with Adams blood .. therefore had sin
(note i define between having sin and doing sin.. because we have sin we end up doing sin -its that thing we call the bent toward it ).. did the lord by his power fertilize her egg .. or did he form himself as flesh in her womb ? having no need of human input ,
because the bible says he became "flesh" and a man as we are . but so was Adam and he was not born of man or woman - thus Christ needed neither man nor woman to become flesh .

this is where my dilemma arose with CF rules because some one pointed out that the Nicene creed only allows for him being fully man , because he is born of Mary's egg.. but was he ? as i know he did not have the need to be so .. jst as Adam was not born from the egg of a woman .. so Christ ,i think , was not . but that's my question , not my statement .

I believe the teaching to be that we are all born with a tilt/inclination to sin (some call the "stain of sin" due to "original sin" which was Adam's) which is our (the human race's) connection to our common ancestor (represented in the Creation stories by Adam and Eve).

The point about Mary is why the teaching regarding Her is that by God's Grace she was born free of sin, which is why Catholics call Her conception - the Immaculate Conception - which as you point out is required if indeed one believes everything that made Him human in Her Womb came from Her - which is my understanding of that teaching. Being "Full of Grace" is also another way of saying being "Holy" as He is Holy and is a state the Church teaches she was not only born in but also remained in Her entire life.

The requirement that He be fully Man, (and have the inheritance of Israel) is also resolved by having that derive completely from Mary - as opposed to believing God created that Man as one believes Adam was (which btw the creation of Adam from dirt is neither denied or supported by Church teaching - one is free to believe that or not as long as God having a (Direct) Hand in it is acknowledged).

 

[he-man]

I believe the teaching to be that we are all born with a tilt/inclination to sin (some call the "stain of sin" due to "original sin" which was Adam's) which is our (the human race's) connection to our common ancestor (represented in the Creation stories by Adam and Eve).

That would mean Christ also was born a sinner and under the Law of Sin And Death." As in Adam all die...and..1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The point about Mary is why the teaching regarding Her is that by God's Grace she was born free of sin, which is why Catholics call Her conception - the Immaculate Conception - which as you point out is required if indeed one believes everything that made Him human in Her Womb came from Her - which is my understanding of that teaching. Being "Full of Grace" is also another way of saying being "Holy" as He is Holy and is a state the Church teaches she was not only born in but also remained in Her entire life. The requirement that He be fully Man, (and have the inheritance of Israel) is also resolved by having that derive completely from Mary - as opposed to believing God created that Man as one believes Adam was ..God having a (Direct) Hand in it is acknowledged).

By the first half of the Fifth Century the obscure and unassuming Mary had become the great Queen of Heaven, so that the Prophet Mohammed in the Seventh Century could suppose that the Christians were polytheists, having, besides God, a Goddess Mary and her Son, yet another God.' from Koran: Sura v. 116.

From Pagan mythology Christianity had unconsciously taken over many a wonderful story and had incorporated it into the life of Jesus: from Mithraism the tale of the birth in the cave and the adoration of the shepherds; from Adonis-worship the tale of the Star in the East;The figures of Isis were turned into those of the Virgin Mary, while the Madonna-lilies are none other than the ancient sacred lotus-flowers of Isis and Astarte. Page 226 CHRISTIANITY AS STATE RELIGION

 

[Messy]

That would mean Christ also was born a sinner and under the Law of Sin And Death." As in Adam all die...and..1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

No why? Adam had that evil inclination too before he sinned. That's just what the flesh wants over which He ruled. Otherwise He couldn't have been tempted the same way as us.

 

[Steeno7]

No why? Adam had that evil inclination too before he sinned. That's just what the flesh wants over which He ruled. Otherwise He couldn't have been tempted the same way as us.

God created Adam with an evil inclination? Is that really what you want to say?

 

[Messy]

God created Adam with an evil inclination? Is that really what you want to say?

Well he was able to sin and Eve was tempted through the flesh: she saw, it was a lust for the eye, I think that is the Evil inclination.
Oh sorry, I don't understand one bit from it, the evil inclination was after the fall.

 

[Alithis]

Well he was able to sin and Eve was tempted through the flesh: she saw, it was a lust for the eye, I think that is the Evil inclination. Jesus didn't have a body that was unable to die because He didn't sin, it was the same as ours. I think He had that evil inclination too. Why else would satan tempt Him?

hi messy
Christ also had the ability to do wrong if he so chose but he chose obedience . Adam chose disobedience . so by one man ,Adam-sin came to all .. we are born with it in us. Christ was Not .and by one man Christ Jesus came life to all who place their faith in Him.
Mary was born of the blood of Adam as we all are -and was just as we all are ..tainted in sin .But the word of God makes it clear that that which was formed in the womb of Mary was "of the Holy Ghost " not of flesh and blood but he "became flesh". it is true that the Blood of the baby in the womb and the blood of the mother never mingle ,thus his blood remained pure and without Sin .. for only Christ is declared by scripture to be "without sin" of all others it says "for all have sinned " thus the word of God declares Mary to have sin ,being born of the flesh is not excluded .
but only the lord Jesus is born of the Holy Ghost
he being the word of the father ,is spoken forth from the heart of the father and the word became flesh (without sin)not of Adam but of God from whence he came .
essentially god said in love for us .."save them" and his words became flesh and accomplished what he has spoken . -is wonderful good news isn't it

 

[Alithis]

hi messy
Christ also had the ability to do wrong if he so chose but he chose obedience . Adam chose disobedience . so by one man ,Adam-sin came to all .. we are born with it in us. Christ was Not .and by one man Christ Jesus came life to all who place their faith in Him.
Mary was born of the blood of Adam as we all are -and was just as we all are ..tainted in sin .But the word of God makes it clear that that which was formed in the womb of Mary was "of the Holy Ghost " not of flesh and blood but he "became flesh". it is true that the Blood of the baby in the womb and the blood of the mother never mingle ,thus his blood remained pure and without Sin .. for only Christ is declared by scripture to be "without sin" of all others it says "for all have sinned " thus the word of God declares Mary to have sin ,being born of the flesh is not excluded .
but only the lord Jesus is born of the Holy Ghost
he being the word of the father ,is spoken forth from the heart of the father and the word became flesh (without sin)not of Adam but of God from whence he came .
essentially god said in love for us .."save them" and his words became flesh and accomplished what he has spoken . -is wonderful good news isn't it

Also the point of the temptation is that Satan tried .. but was unable to tempt the lord . the lord remained unwavering.. just as the holy Spirit says through James .. a man is tempted by the evil inclination of his own heart ...you can only be tempted by that which you already desire to do .Christ there fore stood firm . because he had no sin in him he desired to obey God he desired "good" - he did what Adam failed to do.

 

[Alithis]

I believe the teaching to be that we are all born with a tilt/inclination to sin (some call the "stain of sin" due to "original sin" which was Adam's) which is our (the human race's) connection to our common ancestor (represented in the Creation stories by Adam and Eve).

The point about Mary is why the teaching regarding Her is that by God's Grace she was born free of sin, which is why Catholics call Her conception - the Immaculate Conception - which as you point out is required if indeed one believes everything that made Him human in Her Womb came from Her - which is my understanding of that teaching. Being "Full of Grace" is also another way of saying being "Holy" as He is Holy and is a state the Church teaches she was not only born in but also remained in Her entire life.

The requirement that He be fully Man, (and have the inheritance of Israel) is also resolved by having that derive completely from Mary - as opposed to believing God created that Man as one believes Adam was (which btw the creation of Adam from dirt is neither denied or supported by Church teaching - one is free to believe that or not as long as God having a (Direct) Hand in it is acknowledged).

ok this is back on the thread topic

perhaps .. but being brought forth from the womb of Mary is enough to take care of the inheritance is it not ? he does not (and im not saying he was not, just pushing back as i said i would do in the op )have to be from Mary's egg so to speak .. God made Adam by his word (for "all things were made by Him and without him(the word) was nothing made that has been made " So the lord had no need of either Adam nor Mary to form his own being by his own power ,into flesh -that is "man" within her womb .
of course that makes her what modern speak would call a surrogate mother - and i think that's where the dilemma with the Nicene creed arose - because some said to be fuly human he had to be born of mary's egg - and sure that does make sense in one way . and yet at the same time it does say he became flesh .. a man .. and as such was fully human . he did not need Mary's egg nor Adams blood to become so . And so round and round that goes lol.

any way .. my question was, what scripture do we base either understanding on and why

 

[Messy]

Also the point of the temptation is that Satan tried .. but was unable to tempt the lord . the lord remained unwavering.. just as the holy Spirit says through James .. a man is tempted by the evil inclination of his own heart ...you can only be tempted by that which you already desire to do .Christ there fore stood firm . because he had no sin in him he desired to obey God he desired "good" - he did what Adam failed to do.

Thanks for explaining, I'm finally beginning to understand it.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

ok this is back on the thread topic

perhaps .. but being brought forth from the womb of Mary is enough to take care of the inheritance is it not ? he does not (and im not saying he was not, just pushing back as i said i would do in the op )have to be from Mary's egg so to speak .. God made Adam by his word (for "all things were made by Him and without him(the word) was nothing made that has been made " So the lord had no need of either Adam nor Mary to form his own being by his own power ,into flesh -that is "man" within her womb .
of course that makes her what modern speak would call a surrogate mother - and i think that's where the dilemma with the Nicene creed arose - because some said to be fuly human he had to be born of mary's egg - and sure that does make sense in one way . and yet at the same time it does say he became flesh .. a man .. and as such was fully human . he did not need Mary's egg nor Adams blood to become so . And so round and round that goes lol.

any way .. my question was, what scripture do we base either understanding on and why

Speaking of what is possible for God to do is a different matter than asking why certain things were said and what it meant. If Mary is nothing but a surrogate, then basically any woman would do. However the Bible clearly depicts not only that Mary is chosen but also that there is some thing very special about Her BEFORE any "conception". Note that She is greatly favored by God and is already "Full of Grace" before She said "yes" to Jesus. In an understanding that says Mary was merely a vessel, of which any woman would do (have actually heard such a sermon say that) then all those things indicating something special about Her become frivolous fluff. As the Word we have was preciously recorded. I would think such thoughts about what is important and what is not are dangerous at best.

The idea that God really became one of us and that He is really a living human man is on firmer ground with an understanding that maintains that Man was actually conceived in Mary's Womb rather than God putting a complete human embryo there. After all, except for the missing male's contribution to that miraculous act, that is the way we are all created and we say He became one of us - rather than just "appearing" to have become one of us.

 

[Architeuthus]

However the Bible clearly depicts not only that Mary is chosen but also that there is some thing very special about Her BEFORE any "conception". Note that She is greatly favored by God and is already "Full of Grace" before She said "yes" to Jesus.

That's a famous mistranslation of Luke 1:28 (καὶεἰσελθὼνπρὸςαὐτὴνὁἄγγελοςεἶπεν·χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁκύριοςμετὰσοῦ). The modern Catholic Bible (NABRE) translates: And coming to her, [Gabriel] said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Or, in the NIV: The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

The passage does not say that Mary was "Full of Grace," as older Catholic bibles suggest.

 

[LostMarbels]

sure , but im not sure how it will get my question answered .



this is why it is so important that he was born of a virgin.. no man ,no blood of Adam ,no taint of sin was passed to him .
however my question is Mary.. who was also born with Adams blood .. therefore had sin
(note i define between having sin and doing sin.. because we have sin we end up doing sin -its that thing we call the bent toward it ).. did the lord by his power fertilize her egg .. or did he form himself as flesh in her womb ? having no need of human input ,
because the bible says he became "flesh" and a man as we are . but so was Adam and he was not born of man or woman - thus Christ needed neither man nor woman to become flesh .

this is where my dilemma arose with CF rules because some one pointed out that the Nicene creed only allows for him being fully man , because he is born of Mary's egg.. but was he ? as i know he did not have the need to be so .. jst as Adam was not born from the egg of a woman .. so Christ ,i think , was not . but that's my question , not my statement .

I think the wording of the bible is important here.


1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The word Manifest means: able to be seen : clearly shown or visible: easy to understand or recognize.

Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This was not the beginning of the word of God.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

The word of God created all that is.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So, what we have is God, as the Word of God being made clearly shown or visible in the flesh. God is THE creator. God did not have to be conceived by pregnancy to be brought to us in the flesh. Mary only carried the word of God to fulfill God's will, and become flesh. She is not the mother of God. It is also safe to say that no egg of Gods creation is needed for God to make himself appear in the flesh.

1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It was important enough to be pointed out (by the word of God not me) that those who do not confess Jesus Christ (aka: the Word, or God) as "come in the flesh is not of God." So it's quite obvious, or manifest, that God became of flesh by his own will without his creations help; other than choosing a vessel to become flesh in.

Jesus even admonished Mary at the cross, calling her women, telling her to look at HER son, and for Marry's son to look at HIS mother.

His speaking in this seemingly slight manner to his mother, as he had done formerly, was designed to obviate and give a check to the undue honours which he foresaw would be given to her in the Romish church, as if she were a joint purchaser with him in the honours of the Redeemer.
Source:Matthew Henry commentary.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That's a famous mistranslation of Luke 1:28 (καὶεἰσελθὼνπρὸςαὐτὴνὁἄγγελοςεἶπεν·χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁκύριοςμετὰσοῦ). The modern Catholic Bible (NABRE) translates: And coming to her, [Gabriel] said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Or, in the NIV: The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

The passage does not say that Mary was "Full of Grace," as older Catholic bibles suggest.

Not sure if that is a mistranslated at all, but rather a combo of that verse/greeting by the angel combined with other verses and proper titles into what we call the "Hail Mary" prayer request.

One would be hard pressed to make a case that "highly favored" (or even "favored one") and "the Lord is with you" and "blessed are thou among women" qualifies as just a surrogate mom. What's the point?

Other than Jesus there are no other human and certainly no women that get such a greeting from a messenger of the Lord, which occurs BEFORE Mary says yes to Jesus, meaning the statements are about Mary herself as she is already at that moment.

 

[Architeuthus]

Not sure if that is a mistranslated at all, but rather a combo of that verse/greeting by the angel combined with other verses and proper titles into what we call the "Hail Mary" prayer request.

As I understand it, the phrase "Full of Grace" comes from older (mis)translations of that specific verse.

Other than Jesus there are no other human and certainly no women that get such a greeting from a messenger of the Lord, which occurs BEFORE Mary says yes to Jesus, meaning the statements are about Mary herself as she is already at that moment.

It's far from obvious to me that that's the case. I read Luke 1:28 as saying that Mary is "highly favoured" and "blessed" by being chosen to be the mother of Jesus.

 

[mmksparbud]

True, the bible doesn't go into specific details. Just says Christ was created through the Holy Spirit. There was no blood source through Adam. Logically, it would seem that God would have taken one of Mary's own eggs and the Holy Spirit transferred Christ into that egg where it grew into an embryo. How?--How in the world would that have been explained in bible times??--Even today, that can not be explained in detail. It is the power of the Holy Spirit. It is through the mother that determination of Jewish lineage is made--even today. If your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish. She is the link to His humanity, in her egg lies the human DNA of her ancestors. it is through Himself that His divinity is retained. In a way--the first test tube baby--without the test tube! Human logic has its shortcomings.

 

[LostMarbels]

True, the bible doesn't go into specific details. Just says Christ was created through the Holy Spirit. There was no blood source through Adam. Logically, it would seem that God would have taken one of Mary's own eggs and the Holy Spirit transferred Christ into that egg where it grew into an embryo. How?--How in the world would that have been explained in bible times??--Even today, that can not be explained in detail. It is the power of the Holy Spirit. It is through the mother that determination of Jewish lineage is made--even today. If your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish. She is the link to His humanity, in her egg lies the human DNA of her ancestors. it is through Himself that His divinity is retained. In a way--the first test tube baby--without the test tube! Human logic has its shortcomings.

Why do you feel there is the necessity for Mary's egg to have been fertilized? God has always been self fulfilling so that no one can ever hold any claim to his works. God is the Word, the Son, and the Father. He is described as all encompassing. Why couldn't God simply placed himself in the womb of Mary? The simple act of being borne and birthed by Mary makes Jesus "of the seed of David"; because a women from the linage or seed of David birthed him.

This all goes back to the Word of God being God, and being manifest in the flesh, for me. The Word of God was present at creation, and nothing in creation was made without it; so why would God, the creator, need Mary's egg to form himself in her womb?