the Lord Jesus ..is fully God fully man ,...but a question

[Alithis]

edit note :AS the OP i feel my question has been already satisfactorily addressed. so I open the thread to Digress in what ever way it does.
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after a recent misunderstanding i decided it would be interesting to look further into the question.
But as the question risks challenging (sort of) the Nicene creed, though its not my intent to , I decided to ask it here .(hope its the right place )
please note-I repeat - I in no way intend to disagree with the Nicene creed .that is Not my goal at all.

my question is .. -As the lord Jesus was born of the Spirit and not of the flesh .and formed in the womb of a virgin.so excluding the blood of Adam from playing any part in that process .
did the lord God miraculously fertilize an egg of mary's ? or did the lord God fully become flesh in her womb -independent of any human input ( as he had no need of such )
this is an honest question im not hereto argue it one way or the other but i will push back at answers to test them ..
- im just like that -it does not mean im unwilling to accept the answers ,only that i will push the wall ,to see if it is stable so to speak .

 

[Architeuthus]

did the lord God miraculously fertilize an egg of mary's ? or did the lord God fully become flesh in her womb -independent of any human input

The Bible doesn't go into biological details, but simply says that Jesus was the child of Mary through miraculous means, and that Jesus was as human as we are (Hebrews 2:17).

 

[Alithis]

The Bible doesn't go into biological details, but simply says that Jesus was the child of Mary through miraculous means, and that Jesus was as human as we are (Hebrews 2:17).

hmm actually i think it goes into biological detail on a level which links it perfectly with the Spiritual .. and it s all linked with those words " the life is in the blood".

 

[Architeuthus]

hmm actually i think it goes into biological detail on a level which links it perfectly with the Spiritual

Well, no. It doesn't use the kind of words (fertilise, egg, etc.) which you used in your question.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Interesting question. The phrase "the life is in the blood" can and should be interpreted with care. The phrase certainly carries biological connotations but just how biologically true it is wasn't known with scientific precision at the time of Gen where it first appears. Am assuming the phrase had an oral, prior to its written, history...which would date it even further.

What spiritual connection do you see in the saying?

 

[Steeno7]

hmm actually i think it goes into biological detail on a level which links it perfectly with the Spiritual .. and it s all linked with those words " the life is in the blood".

Could you explain how "the life is in the blood" links it all?

 

[Alithis]

Could you explain how "the life is in the blood" links it all?

sure , but im not sure how it will get my question answered .

Adam was formed of the dust of the earth and God breathed life into him.. God shows later that the "life" is in the blood .. if the blood is spilled the life is spilled and the person dies .now if a life has sin then the life has sin ..it cannot be separated from the blood (life) so when Adam knew his wife eve . his blood in his seed and the womans egg are what the child grows from ..thus the child has in it the life blood of Adam which is tainted by sin .
The child is NOT guilty of self willed sin.. but the child is born tainted with the sin of Adam .the blood is passed from the Father to the Child .
it is the very reason the Lord Jesus was not born of Adams seed for if he had been he would not have been "without sin" he may have done no wrong himself .. but his blood would not have been pure and thus not the perfect sacrifice .only the perfect sacrifice could atone for the sins of all others .the blood of the sacrifice .. the life of the one poured out for all others had to be sinless in every aspect of its existence - the life of the one poured out on behalf of the many .

by natural birth of flesh and with no effort of our own we are born with Adams blood -that is understood these days on a more intellectual level (though i suspect in ancient times it was also understood, maybe even more then we do now As they had far more respect for such things in regard to blood with Adam having walked and talked with God ) And it is just so that through no effort of our own we can ,by faith in the lord Jesus ,be born again into a new life where we are no longer tainted by Adams sin .. a new life in the Spirit (even though we still inhabit the flesh) -just as its written through one man sin came to all (its taint ,it bent is passed on at conception and due to its ,shall we call it gravitational pull we later all end up being guilty of it also in ourselves .. but the lean toward it was not our personal fault .our choice to give into it ..is
So also through one man , the lord Jesus, came life , by faith in him.. we were tainted by sin through no effort and became sinners because of it ..
we are made clean through no effort of our own and so become the righteousness of God -IF we believe in the one whom God sent .

this is why it is so important that he was born of a virgin.. no man ,no blood of Adam ,no taint of sin was passed to him .
however my question is Mary.. who was also born with Adams blood .. therefore had sin
(note i define between having sin and doing sin.. because we have sin we end up doing sin -its that thing we call the bent toward it ).. did the lord by his power fertilize her egg .. or did he form himself as flesh in her womb ? having no need of human input ,
because the bible says he became "flesh" and a man as we are . but so was Adam and he was not born of man or woman - thus Christ needed neither man nor woman to become flesh .

this is where my dilemma arose with CF rules because some one pointed out that the Nicene creed only allows for him being fully man , because he is born of Mary's egg.. but was he ? as i know he did not have the need to be so .. jst as Adam was not born from the egg of a woman .. so Christ ,i think , was not . but that's my question , not my statement .

 

[shadowhunter]

Check out the Redeemer kinsman. He had to be related, and have the ability to redeem. If Jesus was not born of Mary (meaning he did not contain her genes), he would not fulfill the 'seed of the woman' prophecy in Genesis 4, nor that of the Redeemer kinsman.

 

[Steeno7]

sure , but im not sure how it will get my question answered .

Adam was formed of the dust of the earth and God breathed life into him.. God shows later that the "life" is in the blood .. if the blood is spilled the life is spilled and the person dies .now if a life has sin then the life has sin ..it cannot be separated from the blood (life) so when Adam knew his wife eve . his blood in his seed and the womans egg are what the child grows from ..thus the child has in it the life blood of Adam which is tainted by sin .
The child is NOT guilty of self willed sin.. but the child is born tainted with the sin of Adam .the blood is passed from the Father to the Child .
it is the very reason the Lord Jesus was not born of Adams seed for if he had been he would not have been "without sin" he may have done no wrong himself .. but his blood would not have been pure and thus not the perfect sacrifice .only the perfect sacrifice could atone for the sins of all others .the blood of the sacrifice .. the life of the one poured out for all others had to be sinless in every aspect of its existence - the life of the one poured out on behalf of the many .

by natural birth of flesh and with no effort of our own we are born with Adams blood -that is understood these days on a more intellectual level (though i suspect in ancient times it was also understood, maybe even more then we do now As they had far more respect for such things in regard to blood with Adam having walked and talked with God ) And it is just so that through no effort of our own we can ,by faith in the lord Jesus ,be born again into a new life where we are no longer tainted by Adams sin .. a new life in the Spirit (even though we still inhabit the flesh) -just as its written through one man sin came to all (its taint ,it bent is passed on at conception and due to its ,shall we call it gravitational pull we later all end up being guilty of it also in ourselves .. but the lean toward it was not our personal fault .our choice to give into it ..is
So also through one man , the lord Jesus, came life , by faith in him.. we were tainted by sin through no effort and became sinners because of it ..
we are made clean through no effort of our own and so become the righteousness of God -IF we believe in the one whom God sent .

this is why it is so important that he was born of a virgin.. no man ,no blood of Adam ,no taint of sin was passed to him .
however my question is Mary.. who was also born with Adams blood .. therefore had sin
(note i define between having sin and doing sin.. because we have sin we end up doing sin -its that thing we call the bent toward it ).. did the lord by his power fertilize her egg .. or did he form himself as flesh in her womb ? having no need of human input ,
because the bible says he became "flesh" and a man as we are . but so was Adam and he was not born of man or woman - thus Christ needed neither man nor woman to become flesh .

this is where my dilemma arose with CF rules because some one pointed out that the Nicene creed only allows for him being fully man , because he is born of Mary's egg.. but was he ? as i know he did not have the need to be so .. jst as Adam was not born from the egg of a woman .. so Christ ,i think , was not . but that's my question , not my statement .

Mary "conceived" by the Holy Spirit and Jesus was born of a woman, these things we know. Whether He "needed" to be conceived and born in that manner is irrelevent isn't it? But, I believe it was necessary, in order for Him to be born truly human and also free of our sin nature. What may be of interest to you is to know that the mother and child do not share the same blood supply, which is what I thought you may be indicating by your reference to the blood.

 

[Architeuthus]

his blood in his seed and the womans egg are what the child grows from ..thus the child has in it the life blood of Adam which is tainted by sin .
The child is NOT guilty of self willed sin.. but the child is born tainted with the sin of Adam .the blood is passed from the Father to the Child .

That seems both biologically and theologically dubious to me.

 

[Alithis]

That seems both biologically and theologically dubious to me.

im beginning to understand that for some its some how a new concept .but how else is adams sin --for by 1 sin entered- get to be our problem ?how else do we get born with the bent toward sin ?.. before he was deceived he did not have it ..just as Christ did not have it .but it is not biologically unsound ..sperm carries the blood of the father .. that is how we get the begats lol .. my father begat me ..i am off him from him and he is flesh .his blood is in me .
but Christ was begat of the spirit .. he is the only unique son of God the only begotten of the father he was with the father and he was God and he came from the father became flesh and then returned unto the father from whence he came ,being that he is the word of the father spoken forth . for by the word of God all things are created ..and just so with his flesh form .

luv the word begat haha

 

[Alithis]

Mary "conceived" by the Holy Spirit and Jesus was born of a woman, these things we know. Whether He "needed" to be conceived and born in that manner is irrelevent isn't it? But, I believe it was necessary, in order for Him to be born truly human and also free of our sin nature. What may be of interest to you is to know that the mother and child do not share the same blood supply, which is what I thought you may be indicating by your reference to the blood.

aah yes now we are getting to it .. and where im looking for clarifications ... does it say "she " conceived ..or does it say that which is conceived is "of the holy Ghost ..
now ,im not trying to decry either ...
i simply honestly wish to know which it is and why it is believed to be so based on what the bible states ..

 

[Architeuthus]

..sperm carries the blood of the father ..

Well, no, it doesn't. There is no blood in a sperm cell.

 

[Messy]

I read somewhere that the blood came from the Father, so in Jesus' case from the Father, so it wasn't pollution with sin and it could have been her egg. Genesis says the seed of the woman and a woman has no seed. If it wasn't her egg she was only a surrogate mother and not His real mother I think. Then Joseph could also have been called His father.

 

[Messy]

Oh I read that until recently they thought it came from the father, but it comes from both.
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same

 

[Architeuthus]

Genesis says the seed of the woman and a woman has no seed.

Genesis 3:15 says "seed" in the sense of "offspring." The Hebrew word can mean "offspring, descendants, posterity, children" as well as male sperm or the seed of a plant.

 

[Alithis]

Well, no, it doesn't. There is no blood in a sperm cell.

n
nice pic lol.. your digressing the topic a bit but where did the sperm come from ? it came from adams body..it is a part of Adam and Adam had sin so what ever comes from him is tainted by sin.. so it doesnt actually change the point at all.. its just " splitting cells .... sorry - bad pun

 

[Messy]

n
nice pic lol.. your digressing the topic a bit but where did the sperm come from ? it came from adams body..it is a part of Adam and Adam had sin so what ever comes from him is tainted by sin.. so it doesnt actually change the point at all.. its just " splitting cells .... sorry - bad pun

I think Jesus had the same body and blood, not with sin in it or polluted (where is that in the Bible that since the fall our blood got polluted?), but just the same evil inclination Adam also had before he sinned, otherwise he wouldn't have sinned. I think the sin comes in the body or blood once you sin yourself.

 

[Architeuthus]

n
nice pic lol.. your digressing the topic a bit but where did the sperm come from ? it came from adams body..it is a part of Adam and Adam had sin so what ever comes from him is tainted by sin.. so it doesnt actually change the point at all.. its just " splitting cells .... sorry - bad pun

Well, no, actually. It means that all that stuff you said about "the blood is the life" is irrelevant.

 

[Messy]

In Dutch it says: the soul of the flesh is in the blood.