The Imminent Statements in the Book of Revelation

Achilles6129

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"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant[b] John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near." Rev. 1:1-3 (ESV)

"6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place
7 “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”" Rev. 22:6-7 (ESV)

"10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. " Rev. 22:10 (ESV)

"12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done." Rev. 22:12 (ESV)

"20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!" Rev. 22:20 (ESV)

We have here seven imminent statements clearly and emphatically talking about the judgments in the book of Revelation and/or the return of Christ. It has now been well over 1900 years since these statements were written, and we must now deal with the possibilities:

1) The statements are false

This is what the Biblical skeptic would say, because obviously 1900 years could not be considered "soon" by any human perspective.

2) The human race's perception of time is wrong

This is certainly a possiblity and it is one which I believe solves the dilemma posed by the statements. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity (GR) showed that time is relative to the observer. For example, when you go up in an airplane time is actually running slightly faster (by fractions of microseconds - you would never notice the difference) because gravity distorts time. The stronger the gravity the slower time runs, so when you go up in an airplane time will run slightly faster. This has all been scientifically proven.

Now if time is relative to the observer, and it is, why shouldn't we say that heaven's perspective on time is vastly different than earth's? What seems like 1000 years on earth could be but one day in heaven. This, in my view, is an acceptable solution.

3) The passages are couched in "prophetic" language.

While this view has its adherents, it basically makes nonsense out of the statements since it is emphatically said over and over that Christ is coming soon and these things are soon to take place. Now if we look in the Old Testament, we do see some interesting correlations:

" 6 For thus says the Lord of hosts: Yet once more, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land. 7 And I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and I will fill this house with glory, says the Lord of hosts." Hag. 2:6-7 (ESV)

Obviously this passage has not happened yet, but note the imminent language. Commentators on Revelation seem to have missed the OT correlation to the doctrine of imminence. Again:

"Wail, for the day of the Lord is near;
as destruction from the Almighty[b] it will come!
7 Therefore all hands will be feeble,
and every human heart will melt." Isa. 13:6-7 (ESV)

"Wail, ‘Alas for the day!’
3 For the day is near,
the day of the Lord is near;
it will be a day of clouds,
a time of doom for[a] the nations." Ezek. 30:2-3 (ESV)

"Alas for the day!
For the day of the Lord is near,
and as destruction from the Almighty[a] it comes." Joel 1:15 (ESV)

"Blow a trumpet in Zion;
sound an alarm on my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near," Joel 2:1 (ESV)

"Put in the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe.
Go in, tread,
for the winepress is full.
The vats overflow,
for their evil is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes,
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near
in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon are darkened,
and the stars withdraw their shining." Joel 3:13-15 (ESV)

"For the day of the Lord is near upon all the nations.
As you have done, it shall be done to you;
your deeds shall return on your own head." Obad. 1:15 (ESV)

"Be silent before the Lord God!
For the day of the Lord is near;
the Lord has prepared a sacrifice
and consecrated his guests." Zeph. 1:7 (ESV)


"The great day of the Lord is near,
near and hastening fast;
the sound of the day of the Lord is bitter;
the mighty man cries aloud there.
15 A day of wrath is that day,
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and devastation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness," Zeph. 1:14-15 (ESV)


Many of these passages about the "day of the LORD" are indeed talking about the end of the age. Obviously, they were written in the Old Testament (long before the book of Revelation) and have not happened yet. So we face the same dilemma as in the book of Revelation.

I believe the best solution to be #2 above - time is relative, as per GR. The human race's perception of time is simply wrong. From a heavenly point of view these things indeed do take place "soon" - but "soon" from this heavenly perspective on time is in fact thousands of years of earth-time.

One last thing. We do have statements made elsewhere in Revelation about an imminent return:

"5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent." Rev. 2:5 (ESV)


"16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth." Rev. 2:16 (ESV)

"24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come." Rev. 2:24 (ESV)

"3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you." Rev. 3:3 (ESV)

"11I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown." Rev. 3:11 (ESV)

We have here basically five warnings of an imminent return specifically directed at/to five of the churches. While we can explain the imminent statements elsewhere in the book of Revelation, these are a little more tricky. They are tricky because while the seven churches are most likely the church universal, they are also seven historical churches, none of which saw Christ's return (at least physically).

So what's the explanation for these statements? We notice in three of them Christ threatens a coming in judgment, but the other two (Rev. 2:24, 3:11) are talking about his second coming. The two that are talking about his second coming can have the same explanation as above, but the other three are more difficult. It is likely that Christ is referring to a spiritual coming in judgment with reference to the other three, in my opinion.

Thoughts?
 

Interplanner

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to Achilles, there is nothing obvious about the those things you said were. Hag 3 for ex. There are plenty of times when the early part of Acts mentions the shaking of the earth. And as for the 'glory filling the temple' how about Christ and the preaching of his gospel there in those days!

to ChristP: LOL? who are you laughing at or is it to yourself? Luke is the least concerned with the distant future, when compared to Mt and Mk. What Luke lacks is an allowance that the 2nd coming could be delayed.
 
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xXChristPeripheralXx

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to Achilles, there is nothing obvious about the those things you said were. Hag 3 for ex. There are plenty of times when the early part of Acts mentions the shaking of the earth. And as for the 'glory filling the temple' how about Christ and the preaching of his gospel there in those days!

to ChristP: LOL? who are you laughing at or is it to yourself? Luke is the least concerned with the distant future, when compared to Mt and Mk. What Luke lacks is an allowance that the 2nd coming could be delayed.

Lets get a commentary from you, since you have discernment.

What does the highlighted portion of this verse mean to you.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Tell me, If all things written, means the Bible, then how can all things be fulfilled and us still be here?

Can you provide an intellectually honest answer for that?
 
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Achilles6129

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to Achilles, there is nothing obvious about the those things you said were. Hag 3 for ex. There are plenty of times when the early part of Acts mentions the shaking of the earth. And as for the 'glory filling the temple' how about Christ and the preaching of his gospel there in those days!

OK but some of the passages I quoted are talking about the end of the age. Joel 3, for example.
 
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parousia70

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1) The statements are false

2) The human race's perception of time is wrong


3) The passages are couched in "prophetic" language.

You forgot option 4) They mean exactly what they say


Many of these passages about the "day of the LORD" are indeed talking about the end of the age. Obviously, they were written in the Old Testament (long before the book of Revelation) and have not happened yet. So we face the same dilemma as in the book of Revelation.
There have been MULTIPLE "Day of the Lord" events in Israels history, and when the prophets said they were "soon coming" they were right.

"3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you." Rev. 3:3 (ESV)
Just started a new thread on this verse!

Here The Glorified Christ promises real air breathing, blood pumping actual human beings in the 1st century that His "Thiefs Coming" would befall THEM.

We have only two options

1) it didn't happen TO THEM, making the Glorified Christ a liar.
2) it DID happen TO THEM and the Glorified Christ fulfilled His true and correct promise TO THEM.
 
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Interplanner

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To Achilles,
Or...we are being asked to view that as the end of the age. Heb 1 says the coming of Messiah was the end of age. He (and the gospel accounts) might have meant the end of the (70) weeks!

we tend to think that the future is OUR future, instead of the people's who originally heard the apostles.
 
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parousia70

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we tend to think that the future is OUR future, instead of the people's who originally heard the apostles.


It is really amazing how folks can simply disregard original audience relevance... it's as if they think the Bible fell from the sky yesterday and they are the ONLY people it pertains to.

2000 years of Christians before us mean nothing to them, and the Bible meant nothing - had no relevance, to the people who FIRST received it.
Preposterous.
 
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southcountry

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Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Psalms 68:8 The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.

Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.



Pretty sure the above is a molecular breakdown, and is describing this:

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


You see all material is in the sea of glass. It turns into the lake of fire.....then...:

1

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
 
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parousia70

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Pretty sure the above is a molecular breakdown


And I'm absolutely certain it is not.

And we all know that absolutely certain beats pretty sure every time. :cool:
 
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Achilles6129

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To Achilles,
Or...we are being asked to view that as the end of the age. Heb 1 says the coming of Messiah was the end of age. He (and the gospel accounts) might have meant the end of the (70) weeks!

we tend to think that the future is OUR future, instead of the people's who originally heard the apostles.

The passage in Joel 3, just as one example, is certainly talking about the end of the age because it is a direct reference to Revelation. Revelation 14 even contains themes that link it straight to Joel 3.
 
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Achilles6129

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You forgot option 4) They mean exactly what they say

If they mean exactly what they say then the human race's perception of time must be wrong.

There have been MULTIPLE "Day of the Lord" events in Israels history, and when the prophets said they were "soon coming" they were right.

True, but several of the passages I quoted do in fact refer to the end of the age, and claim that it is "near" exactly as the book of Revelation. The Joel 3 passage is a good example:

"Come quickly,[d]
all you nations all around,
gather yourselves there.
Bring down your warriors, O Lord.
12 Let the nations rouse themselves,
and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat;
for there I will sit to judge
all the neighboring nations.
13 Put in the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe.
Go in, tread,
for the wine press is full.
The vats overflow,
for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes,
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near
in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon are darkened,
and the stars withdraw their shining.

16 The Lord roars from Zion,
and utters his voice from Jerusalem,
and the heavens and the earth shake.
But the Lord is a refuge for his people,
a stronghold for the people of Israel." Joel. 3:11-16 (NRSV)

JEHOSHAPHAT, VALLEY OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"Jehoshaphat" simply means "YHWH judges." So the "valley of Jehoshaphat" is just a symbolic name, probably for Megiddo/Armageddon.

The rest of the passage has key links to the book of Revelation:

"12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and there came a great earthquake; the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree drops its winter fruit when shaken by a gale." Rev. 6:12-13 (NRSV)

"14 Then I looked, and there was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like the Son of Man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand! 15 Another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to the one who sat on the cloud, “Use your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So the one who sat on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.
17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over fire, and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Use your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the vintage of the earth, and he threw it into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the wine press, as high as a horse’s bridle, for a distance of about two hundred miles." Rev. 14:14-20 (NRSV)


Just started a new thread on this verse!

I'll try to stop in.

Here The Glorified Christ promises real air breathing, blood pumping actual human beings in the 1st century that His "Thiefs Coming" would befall THEM.

Or maybe he's talking about a spiritual coming in judgment?
 
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Interplanner

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Here is a graphic reason why the bridle-depth blood for a 200 mile radius may be sensibly taken about the 1st century revolt.

First, you need to think through the literalism. The text sounds literal as my friends here define it. I don't detect any symbols in such words. Therefore, in modern warfare, I think this would take all horses on the planet to accomplish. Are there any forces mounted on horseback other than crowd control for Central Park concerts, and the Sounders "March to the Match"? Second, 200 miles west of Jerusalem or Megiddo is...ocean. Hmmm.

So, let's say its refering to splashed blood up on horses, which means horse mounted troops sweeping through an area quickly to put down a revolt. Ahhh, now we are closer to 1st century plausibility. At least Rome had some cavalry that could account for what the vision saw.
 
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Achilles6129

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Here is a graphic reason why the bridle-depth blood for a 200 mile radius may be sensibly taken about the 1st century revolt.

The text may be symbolic. Or it could be hyperbolic language to describe a huge massacre.

Are there any forces mounted on horseback other than crowd control for Central Park concerts, and the Sounders "March to the Match"? Second, 200 miles west of Jerusalem or Megiddo is...ocean. Hmmm.

"The horse's bride" is a unit of measurement - it does not mean there are literal horses involved. Also, it does not have to be 200 miles to the west - why not north or south or east?

So, let's say its refering to splashed blood up on horses, which means horse mounted troops sweeping through an area quickly to put down a revolt. Ahhh, now we are closer to 1st century plausibility. At least Rome had some cavalry that could account for what the vision saw.

Maybe. Or maybe it's referring to the height of a human being. The idea could be one of a massive army over near Israel that suddenly gets massacred. A human being is about the height of a horse's bridle, right? So either the language is symbolic for something, or hyperbole is being used, or it is literal but not describing an actual blood flow that high - only the approximate height of a bunch of human beings who die.
 
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xXChristPeripheralXx

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Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Psalms 68:8 The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.

Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.



Pretty sure the above is a molecular breakdown, and is describing this:

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


You see all material is in the sea of glass. It turns into the lake of fire.....then...:

1

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

:amen:
 
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southcountry

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And I'm absolutely certain it is not.

And we all know that absolutely certain beats pretty sure every time. :cool:

Theres always room for error.

I wish more could understand what Im seeing in the bible. Its as if it is coded. Kind of like where as knowledge about our world increases, so does the knowledge about heavenly things.

Have you ever studied the word "waters" specifically? There seems to be some wisdom there.

The bible seems to describe the very things scientists are seeking.

I have always been interested in the parallels:

If the mass density of the Universe were greater than the critical density, then the Universe would reach a maximum size and then begin to collapse. It would become denser and hotter again, ending with a state similar to that in which it started—a Big Crunch.
from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang


Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.



Kinda sounds like the same thing, eh?
 
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xXChristPeripheralXx

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Theres always room for error.

I wish more could understand what Im seeing in the bible. Its as if it is coded. Kind of like where as knowledge about our world increases, so does the knowledge about heavenly things.

Have you ever studied the word "waters" specifically? There seems to be some wisdom there.

The bible seems to describe the very things scientists are seeking.

I have always been interested in the parallels:

If the mass density of the Universe were greater than the critical density, then the Universe would reach a maximum size and then begin to collapse. It would become denser and hotter again, ending with a state similar to that in which it started—a Big Crunch.
from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang


Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.



Kinda sounds like the same thing, eh?

Brother, be not corrupted by demons who push prophecy into the past, your discernment is of God, and you have favor in his eyes to interpret.

But remember, not everyone here is of God. Stick with parallels and precepts and let God speak through his written word.

I am with you till the end brother..


2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

God Bless :prayer:
 
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southcountry

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Brother, be not corrupted by demons who push prophecy into the past, your discernment is of God, and you have favor in his eyes to interpret.

But remember, not everyone here is of God. Stick with parallels and precepts and let God speak through his written word.

I am with you till the end brother..


2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

God Bless :prayer:

Thank you for your words of confidence! You surely know where we come from.

I truly think we havent seen tribulation yet......I dunno, maybe we are living it now, sometimes the world seem quite viscous. But the information I am receiving says this reality we are in is a trap. It was made as a trap for something that truly does have power......but it will not escape the destruction of its habitation...which relies on the material realms existance.....



Isaiah 27:1
In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Revelation 21:1

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
 
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