The epiclesis and the holy Eucharist.

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Please correct me if I am wrong. I as remember concerning the real presence:
In Orthodoxy, the HS brings Christ's body DOWN to us in the congregation.
For Calvin, the HS brings the church UP to Him in communion.
In Lutheranism, Christ Himself comes DOWN in the Words of Scripture.

IMHO, this is trying to simplify things way too much.

The Orthodox Epiclepsis is a Trinitarian prayer. It is to the Father, asking for the elements of bread and wine to be changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

It’s hard to know what to say to someone who doesn‘t see the actions of the Holy Spirit as real. I certainly would agree that there are significant differences in the way we conceive of the presence.

”This is my body” is a metaphor (at least not literal; I’m not sure whether metaphor is the right term). But metaphors point to something, even if the language is non literal. I would say that it points to Christ’s presence. I don’t see how presence could be metaphorical.

A metaphor is a particular "figure of speech" that EXPANDS meaning in language. When the grammatical construction of the sentence contains the verb "to be" or any copular verb, the metaphor is ALWAYS in the predicate nominative.
Pilate is a FOX.
The seed is the WORD.
I am the DOOR.
You are the SALT OF THE EARTH.

When Jesus said, "This is my body" he is not placing emphasis on the predicate nominative, therefore the figure is speech Jesus is using cannot be a metaphor.

The correct figure of speech Jesus is using is a synecdoche (substituting a part of the whole). The bread which is a part, is substituted for the whole body of Christ.

Memorialists and those who deny the real presence do so by WORD SUBSTITUTION. They substitute "is" for "represent" which destroys the real presence.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

It is to the Father, asking for the elements of bread and wine to be changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

Where in Scripture does it say this?

In the three gospel narratives, plus Paul's writings in I Cor. 10 & I Cor.11 never mention the Father or the Holy Spirit.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It’s hard to know what to say to someone who doesn‘t see the actions of the Holy Spirit as real. I certainly would agree that there are significant differences in the way we conceive of the presence.

”This is my body” is a metaphor (at least not literal; I’m not sure whether metaphor is the right term). But metaphors point to something, even if the language is non literal. I would say that it points to Christ’s presence. I don’t see how presence could be metaphorical.

Possibly presence can be metaphorical in the same sense in which it can be spiritual.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I'm going to hazard a guess that the Trinity acts together so it would make sense that even the Epiclesis is a Trinitarian prayer.

Where in Scripture does it say this?

In the three gospel narratives, plus Paul's writings in I Cor. 10 & I Cor.11 never mention the Father or the Holy Spirit

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Inseparable operations....I could probably go along with that.

I'm going to hazard a guess that the Trinity acts together so it would make sense that even the Epiclesis is a Trinitarian prayer.

.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Possibly presence can be metaphorical in the same sense in which it can be spiritual.

This is a misuse of grammar. A metaphor is a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

The function of a figure of speech is divided into two distinct categories. Either they are ornamental or they expand meaning of a word or concept. Examples of ornamentation are rhyming words, words with similar sound but difference sense, redundancy, exaggeration, alliteration, parallelism etc. Examples of expansion of the meaning of a word would be metaphor, simile, synecdoche, analogy, allegory, metonymy etc.

The misuse of grammar comes into play when the word "metaphor" is used mistakenly for "figure of Speech." A metaphor is just one figure of speech among hundreds.

People always state on CF "This is my body" is a metaphor....that is not to be taken literally. The correct way to state this is to say, "This is my body" is a FIGURE OF SPEECH...that is not to be taken literally.

As stated earlier....."This is my body" is a figure of speech which is not a metaphor but a synecdoche. The literal sense of Jesus' words stay intact...via synecdoche.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

”This is my body” is a metaphor (at least not literal; I’m not sure whether metaphor is the right term). But metaphors point to something, even if the language is non literal. I would say that it points to Christ’s presence. I don’t see how presence could be metaphorical.

Actually all language only points to something, represents something else, some other reality. Christ's presence is mystery with many dimensions. He is present in those who gather in his name. He is present everywhere. He is present in a all the sacrament. He is present in love. He is present in unique way following epiclesis. Believe it or not.

 

[The Liturgist]

OK. I was looking for the exact wording mentioned in the first post of the thread but couldn't find it.

Btw, here is a good translation of the SOC liturgy with a good preface and commentaries: https://www.mgocbhilai.org/admin/downloads/ServiceBookSuriyani.pdf

The epiclesis is on page 37.

Thank you for that beautiful setting of the liturgy, which is more elegantly translated than the liturgies on sor.cua.edu. Alas it only has one anaphora vs. 14, and I really wish I could access English translations of more of the anaphorae.

Also it is a delight to see a St. Thomas Christian and an adherent of the West Syriac Orthodox tradition in India participating. If I might ask, are you a member of the Indian Orthodox Church, the Patriarchate of Antioch, or the Malankara Independent Syrian Church?

 

[coorilose]

Thank you for that beautiful setting of the liturgy, which is more elegantly translated than the liturgies on sor.cua.edu. Alas it only has one anaphora vs. 14, and I really wish I could access English translations of more of the anaphorae.

Also it is a delight to see a St. Thomas Christian and an adherent of the West Syriac Orthodox tradition in India participating. If I might ask, are you a member of the Indian Orthodox Church, the Patriarchate of Antioch, or the Malankara Independent Syrian Church?

You are welcome.

I am a member of the Indian Orthodox Church.

 

[coorilose]

Thank you for that beautiful setting of the liturgy, which is more elegantly translated than the liturgies on sor.cua.edu. Alas it only has one anaphora vs. 14, and I really wish I could access English translations of more of the anaphorae.

Also it is a delight to see a St. Thomas Christian and an adherent of the West Syriac Orthodox tradition in India participating. If I might ask, are you a member of the Indian Orthodox Church, the Patriarchate of Antioch, or the Malankara Independent Syrian Church?

Have you checked the website archive.org?

I was able to find a Syriac version of the St. James liturgy there: St. James Liturgy in syriac - 18 versions - Rev. C.M. Euachim : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[The Liturgist]

Have you checked the website archive.org?

I was able to find a Syriac version of the St. James liturgy there: St. James Liturgy in syriac - 18 versions - Rev. C.M. Euachim : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I have found a collection of about 70 anaphorae in Syriac. The challenge is that they are in Classical Syriac, which I am able to read to some extent, but I don’t trust my knowledge of the language to reliably translate it, in particular idioms and phrases that a native speaker or the likes of Sebastian Brock would know would be lost on me. There was a member of this forum whose posts I have read who was a Syriac scholar, @SteveCaruso , but I think he has been inactive since I joined.

 

[FireDragon76]

It’s hard to know what to say to someone who doesn‘t see the actions of the Holy Spirit as real. I certainly would agree that there are significant differences in the way we conceive of the presence.

”This is my body” is a metaphor (at least not literal; I’m not sure whether metaphor is the right term). But metaphors point to something, even if the language is non literal. I would say that it points to Christ’s presence. I don’t see how presence could be metaphorical.

I don't think metaphor is the right word. A sign is linked to what it signifies by way of meaning. By Jesus declaring "this is my body", he is linking the bread to his body in terms of it's significance. Those who see the bread of Holy Communion as only bread, and not the body of Christ, of course are not receiving Christ by faith, because they deny the sacrament's meaning.

 

[Dan Perez]

In orthodoxy would you who are Orthodox Christians agree that this is an accurate summary of the Epiclesis in the divine liturgies.

The epiclesis is a central part of the liturgy in Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches. In Orthodox liturgies, the epiclesis is often recited by the priest or bishop in a loud voice, and it invokes the Holy Spirit to transform the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Here are a few examples of the epiclesis in Orthodox liturgies:

1. From the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (Eastern Orthodox): "Send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here presented, and make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ. Amen. And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Your Christ. Amen. Changing them by Your Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Amen."
2. From the Anaphora of St. Basil the Great (Eastern Orthodox): "And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ. Amen. And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Your Christ. Amen. Changing them by Your Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Amen."
3. From the Liturgy of St. James (Oriental Orthodox): "Send down, O Lord, Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts, that being overshadowed by His grace and sanctified by His power, we may be made worthy to partake of this divine and holy mystery of the Body and Blood of Your Christ."

In all of these examples, the epiclesis is a prayer for the Holy Spirit to transform the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, emphasizing the role of the Holy Spirit in the Eucharist.

Will we see a bible verse where the Holy spirit has a role in th Eucharist ??

dan p