The Duggar Family

[Achilles6129]

the police knew about the abuse at the time it happened, the DA and the family agreed that Josh would do better to have psychological treatment rather then go to trial and then if found guilty, a juvenile detention center

Well, the police didn't really know, as far as I'm aware. I've only heard about the "stern talk" incident with the state trooper who was a personal friend of the family (the one who eventually got busted for child inappropriate contentography). I didn't hear anything about a formal police report being filed by the parents until much, much later, after the statute of limitations from the "stern talk" had expired.

I think it is kind of sick how the media is brining all this stuff up again 13 years after it happened
it is harmful both to Josh and to his victims to dredge up the past like this
no one is really talking about the poor girls who were molested
the focus is not on helping the victims, it is on hurting Josh

Right, well we have to keep in mind that he may well have been a candidate for some sort of high political office (Congress, Governor, etc.) later on in life. I think the media has done us a service by bringing this information to light; however, I do think that alot of them dislike people who take the Bible seriously, and I believe the same thing about Western civilization as a whole.

... do the IFB really think that black people bear the Mark of Cain? that was from the link..... that seems crazy....
some other things in the link also seem to be hyperbole.... not sure

I wouldn't necessarily believe everything you read on Patheos.

 

[Achilles6129]

Don't they belong to the Quiverfull Church?

As far as I'm aware they have denied involvement in the Quiverfull church (or movement).

 

[Achilles6129]

Well first of all, I resent the assertion in the OP that taking the Bible "seriously" means fundamentalist interpretations. Taking the Bible seriously means treating its texts honestly in the context of what we know from tradition & from scholarship.

It simply says what it says. No way to get around that.

The "real Bible" is not what many in the West deride,

I totally disagree. See popular works by the likes of Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, etc. See conversations and debates with antitheists on this very forum. Go to any antitheistically minded forum (there are many of them) online. Check out a youtube channel where the real Bible is being quoted. Take a look at Paul Copan's book "Is God a Moral Monster?"

its the sort of extremism represented by groups like the Duggars that turns people off.

I have to admit that I have never seen one episode of their show, but as far as I am aware they are very serious about the Bible which I think is a good thing and which I also think, quite frankly, is a rarity in modern Christianity. I'm not going to say that I agree with all of their theology, but quite frankly Western civilization loves to try to tear into people who take the Bible very seriously. If it didn't, people like Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris wouldn't be enormously popular.

 

[Achilles6129]

Honestly - other than having an insane number of kids (and first coming to the public eye when they were "gifted" a house and huge van by their community since they couldn't afford to house or transport themselves) what has this family done to warrant such attention?

Taken the Bible very seriously.

 

[Achilles6129]

Didn't get special treatment. His parents took him to the police to file the report.

As far as I'm aware this isn't what happened. I think his parents actually tried to shield him from legal ramifications. Remember that they took him to a personal police friend to have a "stern talk"; no police report was filed. Please post a source if you know otherwise.

Regarding your hypocrite comment, anyone who speaks out about anything morally wrong is a hypocrite. Does that mean we should all shut up and let evil happen? I don't think so.

Have to agree with this here

 

[seeking.IAM]

Didn't get special treatment. His parents took him to the police to file the report. If it was my kid, and within my family, I'd have handled it similarly. If it was my kid and someone else's kid, different story.
Regarding your hypocrite comment, anyone who speaks out about anything morally wrong is a hypocrite. Does that mean we should all shut up and let evil happen? I don't think so.

I disagree. I have worked in child welfare for over 40 years with victims, perpetrators, law enforcement, and the Court. Most teenagers don't get a pass for molesting a 5-year-old. He was taken to a friend-of-the-family police officer I believe. Unless there was a sealed child welfare action we don't know about due to confidentiality, it was swept under the rug. Simple as that.

 

[James Is Back]

I disagree. I have worked in child welfare for over 40 years with victims, perpetrators, law enforcement, and the Court. Most teenagers don't get a pass for molesting a 5-year-old. He was taken to a friend-of-the-family police officer I believe. Unless there was a sealed child welfare action we don't know about due to confidentiality, it was swept under the rug. Simple as that.

So he doesn't deserve forgiveness? I guess we can toss the Bible out right now!!!

 

[seeking.IAM]

So he doesn't deserve forgiveness? I guess we can toss the Bible out right now!!!

No one ever said he doesn't deserve forgiveness. God may forgive him. His victims may forgive him. He has not wronged me so I have nothing to forgive him for. Forgiveness cannot change what he did. You can't un-ring a bell.

 

[Open Heart]

So he doesn't deserve forgiveness? I guess we can toss the Bible out right now!!!

God may forgive him, and the girls may forgive him. Since he has not wronged you, you have no right to "forgive" him. Your duty as a christian is to stand with the oppressed and victimized. Where is your sympathy for the girls?

 

[Open Heart]

I think that even many modern Christians also do not like the real Bible or real Biblical theology. Indeed, people enjoy deriding those who take the Bible seriously. I think that part of the reason this show was put on television (and I have to admit I haven't seen even one episode) was to give people an outlet to antagonize and attack Fundamentalist Christianity

And now people have a real and genuine reason to attack fundamentalist christianity because not only did the family protect a predator and continue to expose the girls to him, but christians all over the place have supported the family in this. This kind of backwards morality where the oppressed and victimized is hung out to dry and the monster is sympathized with is sheer fodder for mockery.

 

[Rhamiel]

from the video that the two girls had, it sounds like the family handled it the best way they could

should the DA have prosecuted him? maybe

and if you doubt the interview that two of the victims gave, well they might have down played some things, but I have no reason to think they outright lied

also I hear a lot of talk that IFB is misogynistic
that seems like a really serious accusation

 

[Gnarwhal]

Of course I advocate forgiveness and restoration. We all need it in some way, shape, or form. I agree with Open Heart though, the offense wasn't against us so forgiveness isn't our priority here. What we should be concerned about is the double-standard and hypocrisy that's being propagated by them. As Christians, we should be upset that anybody who holds our values (even if we disagree on most things with them) is representing us to the world and doing a terrible job of it.

We are a nation of laws and Josh Duggar committed an egregious crime against his own family. Even if they all have truly worked past it, which I am supremely skeptical of in the girls case, the message is being sent that the law doesn't/didn't apply to him. He was given a "stern warning" (for child molestation) by an officer of the law who happens to be both a friend of the family, and an offender himself.

As Christians we not only have a responsibility to reject injustice wherever we find it, but if it's found amongst our own we should see it as our responsibility that the offender is held to the same standards and consequences as everyone else.

I can't help but think that if the Duggars had not been Christian, or this same crime had happened within a family who was of a minority faith or perhaps an atheistic family, Christians would be calling for the harshest of punishments rather than rushing to the defense of the offender.

 

[James Is Back]

God may forgive him, and the girls may forgive him. Since he has not wronged you, you have no right to "forgive" him. Your duty as a christian is to stand with the oppressed and victimized. Where is your sympathy for the girls?

Yes it's our duty to stand by the victims but it's not our duty to shun the accuser though. As Christians we should be praying for this person not condemning him or anything.

He did a wretched thing yes but so did David and yet David was the apple of God's eye. So are we going to shun David for murder and adultery?

 

[James Is Back]

Of course I advocate forgiveness and restoration we all need it in some way, shape, or form. I agree with Open Heart though, the offense wasn't against us so forgiveness isn't our priority here. What we should be concerned about is the double-standard and hypocrisy that's being propagated by them. As Christians, we should be upset that anybody who holds our values (even if we disagree on most things with them) is representing us to the world and doing a terrible job of it.

We are a nation of laws and Josh Duggar committed an egregious crime against his own family. Even if they all have truly worked past it, which I am supremely skeptical of in the girls case, the message is being sent that the law doesn't/didn't apply to him. He was given a "stern warning" (for child molestation) by an officer of the law who happens to be both a friend of the family, and an offender himself.

As Christians we not only have a responsibility to reject injustice wherever we find it, but if it's found amongst our own we should see it as our responsibility that the offender is held to the same standards and consequences as everyone else.

I can't help but think that if the Duggars had not been Christian, or this same crime had happened within a family who was of a minority faith or perhaps an atheistic family, Christians would be calling for the harshest of punishments rather than rushing to the defense of the offender.

And if Josh was still molesting anyone right now I'd say throw him in jail or prison. Christian or not he did a wrong thing that's not the point. The point is that this happened years ago and everyone(I'm assuming)has forgiven him and I'm sure he's ask for forgiveness. I'm not excusing what he did but it's in the past and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

As far as your atheist analogy. I too would call for legal action if he was still doing it but if that atheist apologized for what he did and was truly sorry in his heart then why should I pass judgement on him(Of course if we are talking about the atheist doing this in the past).

 

[Open Heart]

Yes it's our duty to stand by the victims but it's not our duty to shun the accuser though. As Christians we should be praying for this person not condemning him or anything.

It is our job to bring him to justice.

 

[Rhamiel]

It is our job to bring him to justice.

prosecute him for something that happened 13 years ago?

is that justice?
the 6th amendment says we have a right to a speedy trial

the police knew about this 13 years ago, when he was 14

if the argument is "should 14 year old Josh have gone to court, and then a Juvenile Detention Center if found guilty, instead of going to counseling?"

well that is a complex question, but one that deserves an answer

but the question "should we charge a 26 year old man for a mistake he made when he was 14?" seems almost silly

maybe if this was covered up or if it kept going..... but atleast one police officer knew about this, the girls in the video talked about home visits from Family Services
but we have a statute of limitations for a reason
the DA at the time choose not to prosecute this case, maybe that was the right choice

people have said if he was an atheist many here would not defend him

well I hope I would, I try to be consistent

the girls in the interview said that after the incident, Josh went away to receive counseling and when he came back, he was not allowed to be alone with the girls, and there were new rules in general for the household
they said that they also received therapy
and that family services visited the house

what more should have been done?

and really..... for what they said happened, do you think Juvenile Detention Center would be the best way to deal with it?

I am not brushing it off as "oh boys will be boys"
but I also hear people using really exaggerated language
people calling him a pedophile
that is a psychological term, and a person under 16 is nor normally diagnosed with that mental disorder
people are calling him a rapist.... but no accusations of rape have come forward?
he molested some of his sisters and another girl when he was 14, that is horrible
that is something he has to live with
but that does not make him a pedophile or a rapist

 

[Open Heart]

prosecute him for something that happened 13 years ago?

absolutely. he should pay for his crime. he REALLY needed to be prosecuted for it 13 years ago, but his whacky family opted to save their pedophile son instead of help their victim daughters.

 

[Rhamiel]

again, pedophile is an inaccurate term to be used for this situation
it is a psychological term

a pedophile is an adult or older adolescent who is exclusively or predominantly attracted to prepubescent children

a person who has just turned 14 would not be diagnosed as a pedophile by a doctor

 

[Rhamiel]

absolutely. he should pay for his crime. he REALLY needed to be prosecuted for it 13 years ago, but his whacky family opted to save their pedophile son instead of help their victim daughters.

well the girls received counseling and new rules were set up in the house to prevent Josh from being alone with the girls again
and Josh was sent away for counseling for a period of time

so it seems like they saved their son and helped their daughters
they did both

after therapy
all of the children involved in this are now married, and are parents themselves

so while what happened is horrible, it seems like this is the best possible outcome

 

[Celticflower]

from the video that the two girls had, it sounds like the family handled it the best way they could

should the DA have prosecuted him? maybe

and if you doubt the interview that two of the victims gave, well they might have down played some things, but I have no reason to think they outright lied

also I hear a lot of talk that IFB is misogynistic
that seems like a really serious accusation

Please remember the two girls in the video are his sisters.