The Complexity of Conversion

[keryakos]

ME?
Nope.
I see scriptures in the reformed "way"...to me..that's the biblical way..the only way the correct and right way. IT took me over 20 years to find this "way".
It's all about overall hermeneutic. IT's not about doubting the meaning of the words of scripture at Truth...it's about what they mean in context and the overall plan of God's redemption as Truth in meaning.

Then you really are not able to answer my question and thats fine . No tension here .....

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Perhaps I am confused at your overall thoughts.

 

[RobertZ]

I give up, I am tired and confused. I know so many people who are truly saved and all of them are happy and have full assurance of their salvation yet I cant seem to get any of that.

I figure I either missed my call all together or I was just never meant to be saved. The last time I can remember the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart was 10yrs ago while at church. I dont think he has spoken to me ever since that last time so im guessing I waited too long to get saved.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Then you really are not able to answer my question and thats fine . No tension here .....

Yep no tension for sure.
The fact is this...I show a calvinist icon here at CF to represent best my overall perspective of scriptures.
I am reformed in theology...but even if those labels never existed I would still describe my thoughts in the same manner.
I call it biblical. I USED to be a Baptist, up until very recently...so I cannot debate here...and I'm not debating you for sure brother.
I just want to know where you are coming from on this...Pastor Tim described it from his point of view quite well as usual.
He is a baptist.

See what I mean?

 

[keryakos]

Yep no tension for sure.
The fact is this...I show a calvinist icon here at CF to represent best my overall perspective of scriptures.
I am reformed in theology...but even if those labels never existed I would still describe my thoughts in the same manner.
I call it biblical. I USED to be a Baptist, up until very recently...so I cannot debate here...and I'm not debating you for sure brother.
I just want to know where you are coming from on this...Pastor Tim described it from his point of view quite well as usual.
He is a baptist.

See what I mean?

I made a very simple request which was to describe to me what the conversion process is according to scripture as scripture says it ..I meant in its entirety . No one who has posted has done that for me yet the fact is i want scripture not your particular views In your view Tims response was sufficient in my view it is lacking because it neglects a very fundamental fact which is that God desires all men to be saved that is scriptual not the view point of reformed thinkers now im not arminian i am calvinist but i dont care if you are a spider monkey in a monastary in Iceland it doesnt matter to me ..I want scriprure not opinions ,,

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

,,,

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

deleted by poster.

 

[the particular baptist]

Ok I read a lot of that but when do we recieve the Holy Spirit? it sounds like to me that you must first turn from all your known sin in order to be saved. This contradicts everything I have ever been taught, I have always been told to come as you are and God will save you, that you cant make yourself good enough for him by disowning your sin.

This makes it sound like we must earn our salvation.

You've been sold a bill of goods friend, the call of the gospel does contradict everything you have been taught.




Christ said;

Matthew 10:37-39 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.


In no way can you come to the exalted Lord Jesus Christ "as you are", not in the way you are describing. You must turn (repentance) to him leaving yourself behind. Every passion, every desire, every impulse, every lust, every motive, everything about oneself that governs all the above for self-pleasure and self-satisfaction turned away from....to a new Master. A converted person has new passions, new desires, new motives, and they are to please the Lord Jesus Christ. That is biblical repentance.






Quote from Spurgeon, sermon # 309,delivered Lord's Day April 22nd 1860;

Christ shall have THE WHOLE MAN. In his people whom he has purchased with his blood, he will reign without a rival. As for the world that lieth in the wicked one, the prince of this world shall have his power over it, until his time shall be accomplished.

But as for the Lord's people whom he hath redeemed, on whom his heart is set, he will not have a single hair of their heads to be alienated from himself. "They shall be mine," saith the Lord, "they shall be wholly mine."

Christ will not be part-proprietor of any man; he will not have one part of the man, and leave the other part to be devoted to Satan.

Christ will have the whole man, I shall have to notice, that he does already possess the whole of his people in heir intent and purpose, and that by-and-bye, when he hath sanctified them wholly, he will then actually possess the whole spirit, and soul, and body of the man whom he hath purchased with his precious blood.

Mark then, my hearers, if you be children of God, if you be saved, you belong wholly and entirely to Christ. By this may you know this morning whether you belong wholly and entirely to Christ. By this may you know this morning whether you are subjects of that old Pharaoh, or whether Jehovah is the Lord your God and your great Deliverer.

Christ will not allow us to spare a single sin. We may not select some favourite evil, and say, I will give my heart wholly up to God, but this vice is to be spared. Nay, nay, my hearers, ye are not Christ's if ye have one tampered lust, one sin which you fondly indulge.

Sin you will, even though you be Christ's, but if you indulge sin, if you love it, and delight in it, if it is not to you a plague and a curse, you have no reason whatever to conclude that your name is on his breast, or that you belong to Christ at all.

Suppose a house attacked by seven thieves. The good man of the house has arms within, and he manages to kill six of the thieves; but if one thief survive, and he permits him to range his house, he may still be robbed, perhaps still be slain. And if I have had seven evil vices, and if by the grace of God six of these have been driven out, should I yet indulge and pamper one that remaineth, I am still a lost man.

I contend not for creature perfection; I believe it to be impossible for us to attain it in the present life, but I do contend for perfection in purpose, perfection in design; and if we wantonly and wilfully harbour a solitary sin, we are no friends of Jesus Christ. Not one sin, hen, is to be spared. And as no sin is to be spared, so no duty is to be neglected.

If I am Christ's, I am not to look down his law, and say, "Such-and-such a precept is agreeable to me, I will keep it." No, as I hate evey foolish way, so much I love every right one. "I count all thy precepts concerning all things to be right." We have not come yet to be Christ's verified property, to be Christ's disenthralled people, unless we feel that in all the commandments of God we desire to walk blamelessly,—not a hoof is to be left behind.

As no sin is to be spared, and no service to be shunned, so no power is to be reserved from entire consecration. Christ bought the whole man, and the whole man must be devoted to Christ.

 

[RobertZ]

You've been sold a bill of goods friend, the call of the gospel does contradict everything you have been taught.




Christ said;

Matthew 10:37-39 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.


In no way can you come to the exalted Lord Jesus Christ "as you are", not in the way you are describing. You must turn (repentance) to him leaving yourself behind. Every passion, every desire, every impulse, every lust, every motive, everything about oneself that governs all the above for self-pleasure and self-satisfaction turned away from....to a new Master. A converted person has new passions, new desires, new motives, and they are to please the Lord Jesus Christ. That is biblical repentance.






Quote from Spurgeon, sermon # 309,delivered Lord's Day April 22nd 1860;

Christ shall have THE WHOLE MAN. In his people whom he has purchased with his blood, he will reign without a rival. As for the world that lieth in the wicked one, the prince of this world shall have his power over it, until his time shall be accomplished.

But as for the Lord's people whom he hath redeemed, on whom his heart is set, he will not have a single hair of their heads to be alienated from himself. "They shall be mine," saith the Lord, "they shall be wholly mine."

Christ will not be part-proprietor of any man; he will not have one part of the man, and leave the other part to be devoted to Satan.

Christ will have the whole man, I shall have to notice, that he does already possess the whole of his people in heir intent and purpose, and that by-and-bye, when he hath sanctified them wholly, he will then actually possess the whole spirit, and soul, and body of the man whom he hath purchased with his precious blood.

Mark then, my hearers, if you be children of God, if you be saved, you belong wholly and entirely to Christ. By this may you know this morning whether you belong wholly and entirely to Christ. By this may you know this morning whether you are subjects of that old Pharaoh, or whether Jehovah is the Lord your God and your great Deliverer.

Christ will not allow us to spare a single sin. We may not select some favourite evil, and say, I will give my heart wholly up to God, but this vice is to be spared. Nay, nay, my hearers, ye are not Christ's if ye have one tampered lust, one sin which you fondly indulge.

Sin you will, even though you be Christ's, but if you indulge sin, if you love it, and delight in it, if it is not to you a plague and a curse, you have no reason whatever to conclude that your name is on his breast, or that you belong to Christ at all.

Suppose a house attacked by seven thieves. The good man of the house has arms within, and he manages to kill six of the thieves; but if one thief survive, and he permits him to range his house, he may still be robbed, perhaps still be slain. And if I have had seven evil vices, and if by the grace of God six of these have been driven out, should I yet indulge and pamper one that remaineth, I am still a lost man.

I contend not for creature perfection; I believe it to be impossible for us to attain it in the present life, but I do contend for perfection in purpose, perfection in design; and if we wantonly and wilfully harbour a solitary sin, we are no friends of Jesus Christ. Not one sin, hen, is to be spared. And as no sin is to be spared, so no duty is to be neglected.

If I am Christ's, I am not to look down his law, and say, "Such-and-such a precept is agreeable to me, I will keep it." No, as I hate evey foolish way, so much I love every right one. "I count all thy precepts concerning all things to be right." We have not come yet to be Christ's verified property, to be Christ's disenthralled people, unless we feel that in all the commandments of God we desire to walk blamelessly,—not a hoof is to be left behind.

As no sin is to be spared, and no service to be shunned, so no power is to be reserved from entire consecration. Christ bought the whole man, and the whole man must be devoted to Christ.

So in order to be saved you must first give up known sin in your life? I dont believe one can make themselves good enough to be saved, I thought that conviction comes first, then confession and then repentance. Not repentance first.

 

[van_s]

I want you to tell me from scripture what is the biblical process of conversion . And can you do it without being sarcastic rude or defensive just tell me the facts from scripture not from a Calvinist or Armininian or Fundamentalists theology ..just as the bible says it .. And allow me the opportunity to ask follow up questions so i can understand ...

I AM CALVANIST and i have nothing against ANYONE ... I want answers that are biblical but that are not proof texts to prove a particular position

The reason i am asking is because i find myselfr very confused with a hatfull of contradictions im trying to sort thi out ..

By process of Conversion i mean just that ,,,

I am not as well versed as most on here, but to me in my simple simple thought pattern the verse that comes to mind addressing this questioin is "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out ..." (Acts 3:19)



To Robert:

I have been praying for you. Please study the book of Romans. It is easier said than done and follow the road to salvation.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

​

We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin. We were born under the power of sin's control.


Admit that you are a sinner


Romans 6:23a "...The wages of sin is death..."
Sin has an ending. It results in death. We all face physical death, which is a result of sin. But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity. The Bible teaches that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever. It is the place where people who are spiritually dead will remain.
Understand that you deserve death for your sin

Romans 6:23b "...But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

​

Salvation is a free gift from God to you! You can't earn this gift, but you must reach out and Ask God to forgive you and save you.​

Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in

​

that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"

​

When Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. He paid the price for all sin, and when He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life. He did all this because He loved us and gave Himself for us!

​

Give your life to God... His love poured out in Jesus on the cross is your only hope to have forgiveness and change. His love bought you out of being a slave to sin. His love is what saves you -- not religion, or church membership. God loves you


Romans 10:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!"

​

Call out to God in the name of Jesus​

Romans 10:9,10 "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

​

If you know that God is knocking on your heart's door,

​

ask Him to come into your heart.
​

Just because you have sinned does not mean God has turned from you but rather you have turned from God. He's there waiting for you to return.

In Christ

 

[RobertZ]

If you know that God is knocking on your heart's door, ​

ask Him to come into your heart. ​

Thank you Van_S for reaching out to me. You see......that part stateting about God knocking on your hearts door hasnt happened to me since 1999 when I was under conviction while at church to get saved. I walked away like an idiot and I have not had that knock from God on my heart ever since.

As you could imagine I am terrified and rightfully so.

 

[the particular baptist]

"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out ..." (Acts 3:19)

Amen to the above.


As for the Romans road, it has led more people to hell than all the brothels in America. There is no such thing as a formula to be saved, and if one follows the formula, repeats a superstitious papist romanist popish prayer, he/she is saved. That is a lie invented by synergists in the last 100 yrs. It is nowhere to be found in Scripture or in the first 1900 yrs of church history.

Paul wrote Romans to the church at Rome. He did not write it to unsaved people. Romans is a doctrinal book, and Romans 10 describes what saved people do.

 

[RobertZ]

Amen to the above.


As for the Romans road, it has led more people to hell than all the brothels in America. There is no such thing as a formula to be saved, and if one follows the formula, repeats a superstitious papist romanist popish prayer, he/she is saved. That is a lie invented by synergists in the last 100 yrs. It is nowhere to be found in Scripture or in the first 1900 yrs of church history.

Paul wrote Romans to the church at Rome. He did not write it to unsaved people. Romans is a doctrinal book, and Romans 10 describes what saved people do.

You never answered my question, are you telling me that you have to repent before you can be saved? I dont believe that God tells us to first clean up our lives and then come to him.

 

[LST 1154]

"In my view [Tim's response] is lacking because it neglects a very fundamental fact which is that God desires all men to be saved...

God may desire all men to be saved, but all men WILL not be saved. Judas Iscariot was not saved and according to Jesus is lost. John 17:12, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." God the Son desired to be delivered from the cross when He said "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me...."(Luke 22:42") but as we all know Jesus went to the cross. I doubt that Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini and a few billion others didn't make it either, but I am not the judge. But the fact remains that even if one person is lost, God's desire "that all men be saved" was thwarted.

LST 1154

 

[icamewithasword]

This isn't opinion....it's a fact jack.

I agree, brother!

The only people that think it's hard are those that are trying to 'gain' salvation; as if there was some special work they could do.....

It's impossible to comment on man's total depravity without being called a Calvinist.

Nor speak of repentance without being called a Fundamentalist.

Not to say there aren't any out there; but I've never heard a Baptist speak against either of these [at least not around here].

God Bless

 

[RobertZ]

I agree, brother!

The only people that think it's hard are those that are trying to 'gain' salvation; as if there was some special work they could do.....

It's impossible to comment on man's total depravity without being called a Calvinist.

Nor speak of repentance without being called a Fundamentalist.

Not to say there aren't any out there; but I've never heard a Baptist speak against either of these [at least not around here].

God Bless

So I guess you guys would have a problem with me telling you that the last time I can remember the Holy Spirit dealing with me was 10yrs ago. I walked away convicted and did not accept the salvation that was being offered to me.

Here I am now.......10yrs later and I know that I must be saved or perish for all eternity but nothing that I can do will ever bring back the Holy Spirit to convict me. Nothing I did 10yrs ago brought his conviction on me and nothing I do now can either.


To say the least I am horrified at this condition which I have found myself in and im sick and tired of everyone blaming it on something else which simply isnt the case. All I can do right now is kick myself for walking away 10yrs ago and not accepting my salvation call from the Holy Spirit.

The ironic thing about all of this is the fact that ever since I was a child I have feared the rapture.....hell etc but I never had the guts to tell anyone about it, I remember all the times the Holy Spirit was tugging at my heart and I thought that I had to walk the alter in order to get saved, little did I know was that all I had to do was acknowledge Christ right there in my seat and not even move! I would have been saved without even walking to the alter!

Its ironic that I am now finding this out after the fact isnt it?

Am I ticked off? yes I am.......I feel like I have been cheated out of salvation and now everything I feared as a child is going to come true.

 

[RobertZ]

You know what.....just forget it, forget it all. If im going to hell then I may as well stop trying to be saved and stop hoping that the Holy Spirit will come back to deal with me again. I may as well just go back to the way I have been living.

 

[keryakos]

God may desire all men to be saved, but all men WILL not be saved. Judas Iscariot was not saved and according to Jesus is lost. John 17:12, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." God the Son desired to be delivered from the cross when He said "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me...."(Luke 22:42") but as we all know Jesus went to the cross. I doubt that Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini and a few billion others didn't make it either, but I am not the judge. But the fact remains that even if one person is lost, God's desire "that all men be saved" was thwarted.

LST 1154

Im going to lean on lutheran theology here Gods desire is not thwarted Man does have free will to reject ,,this is obvious ..I guess it goes to show that not even God gets everything he wants

 

[keryakos]

I agree, brother!

The only people that think it's hard are those that are trying to 'gain' salvation; as if there was some special work they could do.....

It's impossible to comment on man's total depravity without being called a Calvinist.

Nor speak of repentance without being called a Fundamentalist.

Not to say there aren't any out there; but I've never heard a Baptist speak against either of these [at least not around here].

God Bless

And it very well could be said that many of the same people who think it so easy are those who believe that their all loving God destined them to eternal bliss while he destined others to eternal damnation now that is insanity if there ever was insanity .. And your comment about works that is something that concerns me and it was one of the reason s i posted the orginal question .. because i am troubled that i might have placed my faith in faith thinking that faith was something that you do rather than what God does in you .. That deeply concerns me

 

[TimRout]

You know what.....just forget it, forget it all. If im going to hell then I may as well stop trying to be saved and stop hoping that the Holy Spirit will come back to deal with me again. I may as well just go back to the way I have been living.

Robert, what do you want me to say? How many times have I explained the doctrines of grace to you? How many times have I admonished you to stop judging your status before God based on OCD feelings? And how many times have you rejected my carefully exegeted arguments out of hand, because you found them to be too "Calvinistic"? I will not be goaded or guilt tripped into yet another fruitless debate. You have heard our responses to your oft-repeated questions. There is nothing more I can do beyond pray.