The Complexity of Conversion

[keryakos]

I want you to tell me from scripture what is the biblical process of conversion . And can you do it without being sarcastic rude or defensive just tell me the facts from scripture not from a Calvinist or Armininian or Fundamentalists theology ..just as the bible says it .. And allow me the opportunity to ask follow up questions so i can understand ...

I AM CALVANIST and i have nothing against ANYONE ... I want answers that are biblical but that are not proof texts to prove a particular position

The reason i am asking is because i find myselfr very confused with a hatfull of contradictions im trying to sort thi out ..

By process of Conversion i mean just that ,,,

 

[TimRout]

Alright my friend. Here's the short version.

1. God has actively foreknown a relationship with His elect. By "actively foreknown", I mean that He has sovereignly established a relationship with every chosen person, creating a personal salvific relationship with each.

2. Those whom God actively established a future relationship with, He then predestined to be saved by grace through faith.

3. Those whom God predestined He then calls to faith in Christ at the appointed time.

4. Those whom God calls to faith will come [Jn. 6:44] and will be justified.

5. All whom God justifies will ultimately be glorified in Christ Jesus.

Thus salvation is of God and by God from first to last. The believer merely responds to the grace of God as faith is apportioned to him [2 Ptr. 1:1].

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." [Ro. 8:29-30/NASB]

Note the prophetic past tense. When God says He's going to do something, it's as good as done. This is the sole basis of our security in Christ.

 

[RobertZ]

Alright my friend. Here's the short version.

1. God has actively foreknown a relationship with His elect. By "actively foreknown", I mean that He has sovereignly established a relationship with every chosen person, creating a personal salvific relationship with each.

2. Those whom God actively established a future relationship with, He then predestined to be saved by grace through faith.

3. Those whom God predestined He then calls to faith in Christ at the appointed time.

4. Those whom God calls to faith will come [Jn. 6:44] and will be justified.

5. All whom God justifies will ultimately be glorified in Christ Jesus.

Thus salvation is of God and by God from first to last. The believer merely responds to the grace of God as faith is apportioned to him [2 Ptr. 1:1].

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." [Ro. 8:29-30/NASB]

Note the prophetic past tense. When God says He's going to do something, it's as good as done. This is the sole basis of our security in Christ.

But is this not a calvanist view?

 

[keryakos]

Alright my friend. Here's the short version.

1. God has actively foreknown a relationship with His elect. By "actively foreknown", I mean that He has sovereignly established a relationship with every chosen person, creating a personal salvific relationship with each.

2. Those whom God actively established a future relationship with, He then predestined to be saved by grace through faith.

3. Those whom God predestined He then calls to faith in Christ at the appointed time.

4. Those whom God calls to faith will come [Jn. 6:44] and will be justified.

5. All whom God justifies will ultimately be glorified in Christ Jesus.

Thus salvation is of God and by God from first to last. The believer merely responds to the grace of God as faith is apportioned to him [2 Ptr. 1:1].

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." [Ro. 8:29-30/NASB]

Note the prophetic past tense. When God says He's going to do something, it's as good as done. This is the sole basis of our security in Christ.

Thank you Tim

 

[keryakos]

But is this not a calvanist view?

Robert it is a calvinistic view and i suppose i ask the impossible when i ask others to try to look beyond their theological framework and tell me what the scriptures says ,,, And im not being sarcastic i reckonize the difficulty in doing so ..But if one doesnt they are held prisoner of John Calvins views or Martin Luthers views Jacob Areminius views or Benny Hinns views lol
but the interesting thing is that Baptists have always had this amazing clarity for looking beyond the view points of mere men historically they have ..so i appeal to them ..

 

[the particular baptist]

Keryakos, at your leisure i recommend a booklet (online) by a Puritan divine (1634-1668), Joseph Alleine, An Alarm To The Unconverted.

It covers such topics as mistakes about conversion, nature of conversion, marks of the unconverted, directions to the unconverted, and motives to conversion.

 

[RobertZ]

Keryakos, at your leisure i recommend a booklet (online) by a Puritan divine (1634-1668), Joseph Alleine, An Alarm To The Unconverted.

It covers such topics as mistakes about conversion, nature of conversion, marks of the unconverted, directions to the unconverted, and motives to conversion.

Ok I read a lot of that but when do we recieve the Holy Spirit? it sounds like to me that you must first turn from all your known sin in order to be saved. This contradicts everything I have ever been taught, I have always been told to come as you are and God will save you, that you cant make yourself good enough for him by disowning your sin.

This makes it sound like we must earn our salvation.

 

[RobertZ]

So does anyone still want to argue that this particular scripture isnt talking about salvation?


5. God offers all needed grace to enable you.

'I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded' (Prov 1:24). What though you are plunged into the ditch of that misery from which you can never get out? Christ offers to help you out; He reaches out His hand to you; and if you perish, it is for refusing His help. 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any man open to me, I will come in.'

Is not this a fair offer? 'Turn at my reproof; behold, I will pour out my Spirit unto you' (Prov 1:23).

 

[sealacamp]

I want you to tell me from scripture what is the biblical process of conversion

Brokenness
Repentance
Surrender
Confession
Acceptance

There is nothing complicated about it. And when you get to any one of these phases you will certainly know you are there.

Sealacamp

 

[TimRout]

But is this not a calvanist view?

No Robert. It is a biblical view founded on a specific text (cited) upon which I made relevant, exegetically sound commentary. Normally I don't like doing exposition that way, but the OP asked for something of a list, so I provided one. It's not about being Calvinist. It's about being biblical.

I would do the very same thing with any number of other related texts. For example:

"Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts .
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple." [Ps. 65:3-4/NASB]


Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28"You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
29"Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
30"I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.
31"Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.
32"I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"[Ez. 36:26-32/NASB]


Does one have to wear the tag "Calvinist" to believe, when exegeted strictly, these passages teach that it is God alone who saves? Rather, I think it has become true over the centuries following the Protestant Reformation that those who interpret the Scriptures strictly tend to adopt the label "Calvinist" or "Reformed" etc; but it's always been about the text of Scripture. The Bible is repleat and consistent in its assertion that God alone saves, and the elect respond by faith.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Conversion is the most simplisitc and sovereign and glorious moment of a persons life.
It's not like the charismatics say...it's all frenzy and wild emotion. That's my opinion, I could be wrong.
Conversion is what Pastor Tim posted.....biblical, God warranted conversion.

Amen.

 

[icamewithasword]

I want you to tell me from scripture what is the biblical process of conversion . And can you do it without being sarcastic rude or defensive just tell me the facts from scripture not from a Calvinist or Armininian or Fundamentalists theology ..just as the bible says it .. And allow me the opportunity to ask follow up questions so i can understand ...

The reason i am asking is because i find myselfr very condfused with a hatfull of contradictions im trying to sort thi out ..

By process of Conversion i mean just that ,,,

You've received some very good answers; I hope they answered to your satisfaction.

If not, then if you wish to receive a 'non-Calvinist/ non-Fundamental' answer to a question you should certainly NOT ask it in the Baptist forum.

Maybe go to 'whomsoever will, may come' forum....... but then you run a great risk of not getting any answer from scripture.... hmmmm.

 

[keryakos]

No Robert. It is a biblical view founded on a specific text (cited) upon which I made relevant, exegetically sound commentary. Normally I don't like doing exposition that way, but the OP asked for something of a list, so I provided one. It's not about being Calvinist. It's about being biblical.

I would do the very same thing with any number of other related texts. For example:

"Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts .
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple." [Ps. 65:3-4/NASB]


Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28"You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
29"Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
30"I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.
31"Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.
32"I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"[Ez. 36:26-32/NASB]


Does one have to wear the tag "Calvinist" to believe, when exegeted strictly, these passages teach that it is God alone who saves? Rather, I think it has become true over the centuries following the Protestant Reformation that those who interpret the Scriptures strictly tend to adopt the label "Calvinist" or "Reformed" etc; but it's always been about the text of Scripture. The Bible is repleat and consistent in its assertion that God alone saves, and the elect respond by faith.
[/quote


I consider myself Calvanist but i dont believe in Double predestination

But really i want to get away from labels here ....

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

No Robert. It is a biblical view founded on a specific text (cited) upon which I made relevant, exegetically sound commentary. Normally I don't like doing exposition that way, but the OP asked for something of a list, so I provided one. It's not about being Calvinist. It's about being biblical.

I would do the very same thing with any number of other related texts. For example:

"Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts .
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple." [Ps. 65:3-4/NASB]


Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28"You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
29"Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
30"I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.
31"Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.
32"I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"[Ez. 36:26-32/NASB]


Does one have to wear the tag "Calvinist" to believe, when exegeted strictly, these passages teach that it is God alone who saves? Rather, I think it has become true over the centuries following the Protestant Reformation that those who interpret the Scriptures strictly tend to adopt the label "Calvinist" or "Reformed" etc; but it's always been about the text of Scripture. The Bible is repleat and consistent in its assertion that God alone saves, and the elect respond by faith.
[/quote


I consider myself Calvanist but i dont believe in Double predestination

But really i want to get away from labels here ....

Labels are subjective overall....but I don't think it's possible to get away from the labels to which you are referring.
I will talk of all of this from a reformed perspective(another label).
Good luck.

 

[keryakos]

You've received some very good answers; I hope they answered to your satisfaction.

If not, then if you wish to receive a 'non-Calvinist/ non-Fundamental' answer to a question you should certainly NOT ask it in the Baptist forum.

Maybe go to 'whomsoever will, may come' forum....... but then you run a great risk of not getting any answer from scripture.... hmmmm.

I disagree with you i think this is the perfect place to ask these types of questions I suppose no one ever informed you of the fact that not all baptist are calvanists or Fundamentalists ..I suppose you either ignored or missed the fact that i have made it clear that i have no wish to bring denomonational views and differences in theology into this I dont think the s criptures are OWNED by any particular theological camp though you might disagree with me there .. if not how about just answer the question without the commentary ...

 

[keryakos]

Labels are subjective overall....but I don't think it's possible to get away from the labels to which you are referring.
I will talk of all of this from a reformed perspective(another label).
Good luck.

So what you are saying is you cannot discern scripture from your particular theological grasp if you will because that is what im asking for plain and simple i am asking you to lay aside what you believe and tell me what the bible says ...

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

It's not about denominational views here.
The entire idea of scriptural ownership is unfounded.
Calvinist and Arminian are pretty much the only two "camps" if you will.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

So what you are saying is you cannot discern scripture from your particular theological grasp if you will because that is what im asking for plain and simple i am asking you to lay aside what you believe and tell me what the bible says ...

ME?
Nope.
I see scriptures in the reformed "way"...to me..that's the biblical way..the only way the correct and right way. IT took me over 20 years to find this "way".
It's all about overall hermeneutic. IT's not about doubting the meaning of the words of scripture at Truth...it's about what they mean in context and the overall plan of God's redemption as Truth in meaning.

 

[keryakos]

Conversion is the most simplisitc and sovereign and glorious moment of a persons life.
It's not like the charismatics say...it's all frenzy and wild emotion. That's my opinion, I could be wrong.
Conversion is what Pastor Tim posted.....biblical, God warranted conversion.

Amen.

... i didnt ask for opinion i dont want opinion im trying to get away from all of that

i did not know Tim was a pastor im sure hes a good one ...

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Conversion is the most simplisitc and sovereign and glorious moment of a persons life.

This isn't opinion....it's a fact jack.