The Complexity of Conversion

[RobertZ]

Nm.

 

[mlqurgw]

Nm.

I have said all I need to sy.

 

[Breckmin]

They are only interested in folks being sorry for them instead of wanting and believing the truth.

How do you know this, again? Was this something they confessed to you?
Or is this something you "concluded" based on your "experience."

Never in all of my years or horror and struggling did I ever care about
people feeling sorry for me... never in my years of counseling others
have I ever met a believer who particularly cared about whether other
people/Christians felt sorry for them... because the fear and horror
they were experiencing was FAR too great to care about condolences.

This ain't my first rodeo and I have been around the block a few times.

If you have been around the block... then it is by the grace of God
and by the grace of God alone that you know anything at all, my
brother... How many of these who were only interested in folks
feeling sorry for, did you actually help? Once again, I think you
would agree - that if you did help them it would be by God's grace
and God's grace alone.

I seem to be very good at reading people and my instincts are usually right.

Man looks at the outside....God looks at the heart... What you don't
realize is how damaging your responses can be to those who are
struggling... and how this will wrongfully affect the way in which you
pray for them. Never have I seen those struggling with the loss of
salvation...or never having been saved... just looking for attention.
I think it is a terrible misjudgment to accuse anyone of this...particularly
when the stakes are so eternally high.

Our friend has throne up every red flag that I have ever seen that tells me my "judgement" is right.

You know, I once had an elder of a church tell me that I was SO
prideful that I loved God - but that God was going to send me to
hell because even though He loved me...I was somehow better than
God for loving Him while I believed He would still separate Himself
from me and from His glory...

In a nutshell, because he was a five point Calvinist he concluded
that I thought I was somehow better than God because I loved God
but that God would still send me to hell.... I wept for hours because
it was such an incredible misjudgement of what I was going through..
yet this elder supposedly had "the gift of discernment." He was
not an elder too long after he made this statement to me. (not
saying it was because of me).

He had no idea of the deception and the confusion that I was going
through. He had no idea of my utter dispair and total low self
image and what had been exploited by the enemies of God..

Of the dozens of people I have talked to about this issue...I
hope and pray that they do not continue to meet with Christians
who are impatient with them, or will falsely judge their motives
as merely "looking for attention."

This is clearly the result of psychological analysis and invalid induction.

The possibility of hell is far too great of a terror to care about whether
someone takes pity on you...because you know that pity will not change
your eternal state or condition...

God's ability to save you WILL. How God can save a person who
believes they are condemned by a technicality in the scriptures should
be the ONLY subject matter...

pity is not the right judgement.

Michael

 

[RobertZ]

How do you know this, again? Was this something they confessed to you?
Or is this something you "concluded" based on your "experience."

Never in all of my years or horror and struggling did I ever care about
people feeling sorry for me... never in my years of counseling others
have I ever met a believer who particularly cared about whether other
people/Christians felt sorry for them... because the fear and horror
they were experiencing was FAR too great to care about condolences.




If you have been around the block... then it is by the grace of God
and by the grace of God alone that you know anything at all, my
brother... How many of these who were only interested in folks
feeling sorry for, did you actually help? Once again, I think you
would agree - that if you did help them it would be by God's grace
and God's grace alone.


Man looks at the outside....God looks at the heart... What you don't
realize is how damaging your responses can be to those who are
struggling... and how this will wrongfully affect the way in which you
pray for them. Never have I seen those struggling with the loss of
salvation...or never having been saved... just looking for attention.
I think it is a terrible misjudgment to accuse anyone of this...particularly
when the stakes are so eternally high.




You know, I once had an elder of a church tell me that I was SO
prideful that I loved God - but that God was going to send me to
hell because even though He loved me...I was somehow better than
God for loving Him while I believed He would still separate Himself
from me and from His glory...

In a nutshell, because he was a five point Calvinist he concluded
that I thought I was somehow better than God because I loved God
but that God would still send me to hell.... I wept for hours because
it was such an incredible misjudgement of what I was going through..
yet this elder supposedly had "the gift of discernment." He was
not an elder too long after he made this statement to me. (not
saying it was because of me).

He had no idea of the deception and the confusion that I was going
through. He had no idea of my utter dispair and total low self
image and what had been exploited by the enemies of God..

Of the dozens of people I have talked to about this issue...I
hope and pray that they do not continue to meet with Christians
who are impatient with them, or will falsely judge their motives
as merely "looking for attention."

This is clearly the result of psychological analysis and invalid induction.

The possibility of hell is far too great of a terror to care about whether
someone takes pity on you...because you know that pity will not change
your eternal state or condition...

God's ability to save you WILL. How God can save a person who
believes they are condemned by a technicality in the scriptures should
be the ONLY subject matter...

pity is not the right judgement.

Michael

Thank you Michael, I could not have said it better myself. I am actually astounded that certain members here are lashing out at me and make false judgments of my motives.

Its nice to see that at least one person here gets it.

 

[the particular baptist]

Truth sometimes hurts, and to see the Narrow Gate it must hurt.



YouTube - Truth

 

[RobertZ]

Truth sometimes hurts, and to see the Narrow Gate it must hurt.



YouTube - Truth

Let me ask you something, what is it exactly that you are trying to prove here?

Its not that I have an issue with that video because I firmly believe what it was saying but I just have to know what your intentions were when you posted that to me and then stated "Truth sometimes hurts".

 

[Breckmin]

Telling someone they are fat when they are obese hurts also...but does it
encourage them and build them up??? Or does it make them feel bad?

 

[mlqurgw]

Telling someone they are fat when they are obese hurts also...but does it
encourage them and build them up??? Or does it make them feel bad?

When you have exhausted every avenue you can think of to encourage someone to lose weight only to have it ignored and denied then you finally simply tell them the truth in a shocking manner to jolt them into reality. At least you do if you truly care for them. If you don't care you just leave them alone.

Edit: Compassion doesn't always come with kidd gloves. I may be hated but perhaps now someone can actually reach him.

 

[epistemaniac]

I give up, I am tired and confused. I know so many people who are truly saved and all of them are happy and have full assurance of their salvation yet I cant seem to get any of that.

I figure I either missed my call all together or I was just never meant to be saved. The last time I can remember the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart was 10yrs ago while at church. I dont think he has spoken to me ever since that last time so im guessing I waited too long to get saved.

what, exactly, do you take to be the "Holy Spirit speaking to you" to consist of? can the Holy Spirit not speak to you through the words of others? can the Holy Spirit not speak to you through the words of scripture? why insist that that the Holy Spirit speaking to you entail exclusively and only whatever it was you felt 10 years ago? who says that the Holy Spirit will always and only speak to you in exactly that same way and only that same way each and every time? the Holy Spirit is speaking to you now, through members of this forum, through the Scriptures they have pointed you to, to repent, to turn to God that your sins be forgiven...
Act 3:19-21 esv Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, (20) that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, (21) whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago."

I understand that the Lord may deal with people in different ways and for varying amounts of time. John Wesley struggled for 10 years.... but you have got to come to the realization though, that your feelings are not the ultimate test for reality. God's word is the truth, not your feelings, not whatever it is you think that the Holy Spirit speaking to you MUST be like... this cannot be THE standard for how God MUST interact with you... your thinking this is the reason, it seems to me, why some are getting frustrated. You can't elevate your standards (your subjective feelings) over the standard of Scripture (the objective standard of truth). As long as you continue to miss this or ignore this point, you will forever be a prisoner to your feelings and your spiritual life will be a catastrophe, you will forever be on a roller coaster, up and down, this way and that way, tossed about by every wind and wave. Remember that the gospel is outside of you. It is something that happened in time and space. If you spend all your time staring at your own belly button, always looking within, you will miss the fact that Jesus died to save sinners, and that His death actually accomplished exactly what it was supposed to accomplish. You are a sinner. Christ died to save sinners. He did what He set out to do. Now it is up to you to hold on to Jesus, literally, for dear life. Don't trust your feelings. Don't trust the enemy whispering in your ear telling you that that the only way God speaks to you is whatever it was exactly that you remember happened to you 10 years ago. Trust Jesus, He won't fail you. Already the little lawyer in your head is saying "but.... but..... but...." As the Italians say: "fergitaboutit".... stop with the excuses... stop with the thinking that the Scriptural promises apply to everyone but you. You are not so special and so different that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross can't atone for your sins. You are just an ordinary sinner like anyone else, but the good news is that Jesus died to save ordinary sinners just like you. You seem to have no trouble with admitting that you are a sinner, that you need Christ, that you are lost without Him, and thats good, that ITSELF is a gift from God! Never underestimate or take that gift for granted! Now all that is necessary is for to you to grasp hold of the Cross and to Christ as the means for your salvation. And it is at this point that you are your own worst enemy! lol... Stop making excuses. Believe on Christ!!

blessings,
ken

 

[LilLamb219]

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[Breckmin]

When you have exhausted every avenue you can think of

Then I would suggest at this point that we pray for wisdom for more
avenues, or pray for someone else to reach that person. This is God's
work, not ours.

to encourage someone to lose weight only to have it ignored and denied then you finally simply tell them the truth in a shocking manner to jolt them into reality.

Do you accompany these words with "the truth must hurt?" because
that is what the subject was... It was in regards to hurting someone
with the truth NOT shocking them. I do not believe that for one minute
that RobertZ was somehow "shocked" by the video.

At least you do if you truly care for them. If you don't care you just leave them alone.

How about prayer? Since this is God's work and God's work alone
because it is the Holy Spirit who will deliver such a person and NOT
us, it would seem logical to pray that God would complete His work
especially since eyes have been opened.

Edit: Compassion doesn't always come with kidd gloves. I may be hated but perhaps now someone can actually reach him.

We as believers always need to be careful since we are not omniscient
NOT to judge our fellow brethern. If you and I were in anyone else's
circumstances with all of the causes and effects that are surrounding
them, we would be able to see more clearly what the person is going
through.

I don't expect that anyone will hate you for being at your wits end...
It is finally when we get to our wits end that we can fall on our knees
and pray and let God continue the work.

When Robert is restored to faith it will be the Faithfulness of God and
God alone and all of the glory will go to the Father and to Jesus Christ
who is the Author and Finisher of his faith, and the Holy Spirit who
gave him the faith to believe.

All I ask is that we remember that this is not our work...this is the
Lord's work... and we shouldn't be thinking of hurting anyone with
sharp words or misjudgments... instead we should continue to show
the love and gentleness of Christ to His little lambs.

This is how the complexity of salvation is often strong through God's
work and perfected in our weaknesses and inabilities.

In Him,
Michael

 

[mlqurgw]

Then I would suggest at this point that we pray for wisdom for more
avenues, or pray for someone else to reach that person. This is God's
work, not ours.



Do you accompany these words with "the truth must hurt?" because
that is what the subject was... It was in regards to hurting someone
with the truth NOT shocking them. I do not believe that for one minute
that RobertZ was somehow "shocked" by the video.




How about prayer? Since this is God's work and God's work alone
because it is the Holy Spirit who will deliver such a person and NOT
us, it would seem logical to pray that God would complete His work
especially since eyes have been opened.



We as believers always need to be careful since we are not omniscient
NOT to judge our fellow brethern. If you and I were in anyone else's
circumstances with all of the causes and effects that are surrounding
them, we would be able to see more clearly what the person is going
through.

I don't expect that anyone will hate you for being at your wits end...
It is finally when we get to our wits end that we can fall on our knees
and pray and let God continue the work.

When Robert is restored to faith it will be the Faithfulness of God and
God alone and all of the glory will go to the Father and to Jesus Christ
who is the Author and Finisher of his faith, and the Holy Spirit who
gave him the faith to believe.

All I ask is that we remember that this is not our work...this is the
Lord's work... and we shouldn't be thinking of hurting anyone with
sharp words or misjudgments... instead we should continue to show
the love and gentleness of Christ to His little lambs.

This is how the complexity of salvation is often strong through God's
work and perfected in our weaknesses and inabilities.

In Him,
Michael

Have you read any of my posts other than in this thread? You talk as though I were an Arminian who believes it is up to me to get someone saved. I am about as Calvinist as they come. I know that it is the work of the Spirit to convince a sinner and it is the Lord who saves. I wish with all that is in me for all men to know Christ and trust Him because I know what it is to be saved. Salvation comes by the preaching of the Gospel by the Spirit making it effectual to the hearts of chosen sinners. When someone has had the Gospel preached to them by me and several others and still rejects it then I simply point out the obvious to them. As long as there is life there is hope. You may not approve of how I do things but I have no problem giving an answer to God for it.

 

[Breckmin]

When someone has had the Gospel preached to them by me and several others and still rejects it then I simply point out the obvious to them.

I believe there is wisdom in seeing the difference between rejecting
the gospel and knowing that what they know to be true can apply
personally to them also.

Nowhere do I say you are an Arminianist or write to you as though
you are one. What I do wish to do is to remind you and others that
if you have confidence in your faith, it is by the grace of God and the
grace of God alone.

If someone else is weak in the faith, or lacks faith - but KNOWS the
gospel to be "true" - this does not mean they they are rejecting the
gospel. It is also by the grace of God that you are not in the same
situation as to have your joy removed.

For 33 years I never once rejected the gospel...but God allowed
circumstances in my life to test my faith that DID make me question
whether or not the gospel was available to me personally. Unless
you begin to understand this nightmare... it is possible you will
falsely judge those brothers and sisters in Christ who are struggling.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[RobertZ]

I believe there is wisdom in seeing the difference between rejecting
the gospel and knowing that what they know to be true can apply
personally to them also.

Nowhere do I say you are an Arminianist or write to you as though
you are one. What I do wish to do is to remind you and others that
if you have confidence in your faith, it is by the grace of God and the
grace of God alone.

If someone else is weak in the faith, or lacks faith - but KNOWS the
gospel to be "true" - this does not mean they they are rejecting the
gospel. It is also by the grace of God that you are not in the same
situation as to have your joy removed.

For 33 years I never once rejected the gospel...but God allowed
circumstances in my life to test my faith that DID make me question
whether or not the gospel was available to me personally. Unless
you begin to understand this nightmare... it is possible you will
falsely judge those brothers and sisters in Christ who are struggling.

In Christ,
Michael

I could not have said it any better myself. Thanks Michael.

 

[keryakos]

I could not have said it any better myself. Thanks Michael.

I havent been on here for a while but Robert i suggest you ignore certain people you are loved and i want you to say whay you need to say in spite of what anyone thinks

 

[RobertZ]

I havent been on here for a while but Robert i suggest you ignore certain people you are loved and i want you to say whay you need to say in spite of what anyone thinks

Thank you, I must say that im utterly and completely shocked that certain people here would be so quick to judge and then throw things in my face like "the truth hurts".

I mean honestly, I was not the least bit shocked by anything that was in that video which was posted.

 

[Hammster]

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[RobertZ]

My apologies to anyone here that I may have offended. Emotions can run high sometimes regarding spiritual matters but I know its not an excuse for poor behavior so again im sorry if I hurt or upset anyone.

 

[keryakos]

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thank you very much