The Catholic Church

[MoreCoffee]

It seems to me that if one wants to speak about Catholic teaching then one ought to ask questions rather than make statements about what is alleged to be Catholic teaching. Let Catholics say what they believe. It works better that way. Repeating what one has heard or read in books about Catholic teaching written by people whose chief interest is to attempt to disprove it is unhelpful. Such sources do not have a reputation for reliability. It best to ask a Catholic or check Catholic sources when you want to know what Catholics believe and teach.

 

[Saucy]

To sum up my whole thoughts on the matter, I asked ya'll to provide chapter and verse for why you believe what you believe and you haven't been able to do it. Nothing you have posted had ANYTHING at all to do with the subject at hand. That has led me to believe that you really don't know your bibles really well or haven't at least studied the context and meanings of those verses outside of the Catholic paradigm.

You want me to believe that the Catholic church upholds the bible first, but has the authority to create their own 'divinely' inspired works. But if there's anything I know that is true, it's if there's a work, book, study, theology, etc that contradicts the word of God, then it was more than likely corrupt.

You couldn't prove purgatory and in fact there are several verses where it confirms you either go to Heaven or to Hell when you die. There's not one mention of purgatory. I provided many, many verses that proved once you're saved, you can't lose that salvation because it is a gift given to you by God and you're sealed until the day of redemption. You provided no verses that even hinted we lose our salvation.

And on and on.

The thing that gets me though, is you never ONCE countered the verses I posted. You just seem to shrug your shoulders, say I'm wrong and move on.

I admit that I could be wrong. I'm on a journey to find the truth and I've studied the bible intently and many, many years. I went to bible college. I know what the Word says. I'm not inherently anti-Catholic so I will automatically dismiss every Catholic doctrine. I just don't see it. Anywhere. In ANY form. You have provided no evidence of yourself, nor have you been able to disprove what I posted from the bible itself.

If what you believe counters what the bible has to say, I would be careful not to accept it out of hand just because the Catholic church tells you to believe. They can be wrong. My pastor admits fully that he can be wrong and (as the bible says to do) test his words. The Catholic church doesn't seem to have this fail-system in place. Everyone believes they have the authority and are infallible, so it must be true. I can't accept it.

If you can find a clear verse that says not to eat 'X' food on Sundays, I would do it. If it speaks of purgatory and praying out, I would believe it. It if says Mary remained a virgin her whole life and we can pray through her, I would believe it. But none of it is there. I've searched and searched, but it's missing.

 

[Saucy]

It seems to me that if one wants to speak about Catholic teaching then one ought to ask questions rather than make statements about what is alleged to be Catholic teaching. Let Catholics say what they believe. It works better that way. Repeating what one has heard or read in books about Catholic teaching written by people whose chief interest is to attempt to disprove it is unhelpful. Such sources do not have a reputation for reliability. It best to ask a Catholic or check Catholic sources when you want to know what Catholics believe and teach.

Well that's the problem. Apparently Catholics don't even agree on what to believe. And I know you can say that about any religious group. But from every Catholic I've spoken to, not one agrees with the other on what is truth. Even my roommate is having a hard time finding answers because every priest he talks to says something different.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well that's the problem. Apparently Catholics don't even agree on what to believe. And I know you can say that about any religious group. But from every Catholic I've spoken to, not one agrees with the other on what is truth. Even my roommate is having a hard time finding answers because every priest he talks to says something different.

Let me ask you this: Do all non-denominational Christians believe the same things about every doctrine that you yourself hold? Are all Calvinists or are all Arminian? What about Pre or post tribulationists? What about dispensationalists or futurists? Do all baptise in the same way? It ought to be obvious to all who read this thread that your own non-denominational people do not agree on what to believe so why do you demand uniformity from Catholics? Surely such a demand is unwarranted and surely it is ironic when the person demanding it cannot produce the demanded uniformity in his own circle?

 

[GoingByzantine]

Well that's the problem. Apparently Catholics don't even agree on what to believe. And I know you can say that about any religious group. But from every Catholic I've spoken to, not one agrees with the other on what is truth. Even my roommate is having a hard time finding answers because every priest he talks to says something different.

Partially that is because the Catholic Church is a diverse institution with many different schools of thought. For instance I am not a Latin Roman Catholic, I belong to the Byzantine Eastern Catholic School of thought. We share a common core theology with our brothers in the West, but we do have differences. In the West, different religious orders teach different methods of living faith that all fall within church teaching...we also have a branch of Catholics that are more Protestant in nature in the Anglican Use Churches. We are not rigid, we are all living the Catholic faith with minor variations, but ultimately we are connected together through the Communion of the Church and the Communion of fellowship in Christ.

As you mentioned, differences of opinion exist in any religious body, but for Catholics these differences help make us better rather than cause divisiveness.

 

[Rhamiel]

To sum up my whole thoughts on the matter, I asked ya'll to provide chapter and verse for why you believe what you believe and you haven't been able to do it. Nothing you have posted had ANYTHING at all to do with the subject at hand. That has led me to believe that you really don't know your bibles really well or haven't at least studied the context and meanings of those verses outside of the Catholic paradigm.

You want me to believe that the Catholic church upholds the bible first, but has the authority to create their own 'divinely' inspired works. But if there's anything I know that is true, it's if there's a work, book, study, theology, etc that contradicts the word of God, then it was more than likely corrupt.

You couldn't prove purgatory and in fact there are several verses where it confirms you either go to Heaven or to Hell when you die. There's not one mention of purgatory. I provided many, many verses that proved once you're saved, you can't lose that salvation because it is a gift given to you by God and you're sealed until the day of redemption. You provided no verses that even hinted we lose our salvation.

And on and on.

The thing that gets me though, is you never ONCE countered the verses I posted. You just seem to shrug your shoulders, say I'm wrong and move on.

I admit that I could be wrong. I'm on a journey to find the truth and I've studied the bible intently and many, many years. I went to bible college. I know what the Word says. I'm not inherently anti-Catholic so I will automatically dismiss every Catholic doctrine. I just don't see it. Anywhere. In ANY form. You have provided no evidence of yourself, nor have you been able to disprove what I posted from the bible itself.

If what you believe counters what the bible has to say, I would be careful not to accept it out of hand just because the Catholic church tells you to believe. They can be wrong. My pastor admits fully that he can be wrong and (as the bible says to do) test his words. The Catholic church doesn't seem to have this fail-system in place. Everyone believes they have the authority and are infallible, so it must be true. I can't accept it.

If you can find a clear verse that says not to eat 'X' food on Sundays, I would do it. If it speaks of purgatory and praying out, I would believe it. It if says Mary remained a virgin her whole life and we can pray through her, I would believe it. But none of it is there. I've searched and searched, but it's missing.

I am so sorry if I seemed dismissive of your objections

my main goal was not so much to get people to agree with me, but rather to just show that the Catholic Church has reasons for what they believe
like in the Transubstantiation thread, I would go back and forth on it.
But here I was happy just to show that there is Biblical support for what we believe, you do not agree with our interpretations, but it is from the Bible

just about all of my posts in here have been peppered full of Bible verses

you say that no one has shown one verse about loosing salvation, what about the verse that not every one who runs wins the crown?
or when Jesus gives the parable of the sower and the seed?
Matthew 13:20 seems to be someone who receives the gospel with joy but does not persevere
now you would say that this is an example of a person who was never a "true believer" but the text does not clearly state that.

 

[scraparcs]

Asking Catholics to prove things solely from the bible strikes me like trying to ask Protestants to prove things solely from Holy Tradition.

 

[Rhamiel]

Asking Catholics to prove things solely from the bible strikes me like trying to ask Protestants to prove things solely from Holy Tradition.

well, Catholics believe that Sacred Tradition will never contradict the Bible, so it is not that bad.

I think part of this is kind of a problem with Sola Scripture

the idea that all a person needs is a Bible and the Holy Spirit and they will have perfect theology means disagreements fall into one of two categories, both of which I believe have negative theological implications

1 "well that belief is not important and Christian unity is more important"
this leads to a lot of important theological issues getting glossed over

or
2 "they do not interpret the Bible the same way I do, since all we have is the Bible and the Holy Spirit this person must be deliberately trying to manipulate the word of God or they were never Born Again"
this leads to a lack of charity and doubting the good faith of the other person

 

[AztecSDSU]

Well that's the problem. Apparently Catholics don't even agree on what to believe. And I know you can say that about any religious group. But from every Catholic I've spoken to, not one agrees with the other on what is truth. Even my roommate is having a hard time finding answers because every priest he talks to says something different.

Catholics have to accept dogma, but a massive amount of theology falls outside the realm of dogma. Thus within the Catholic church there is significant room for differing opinions on various issues.

 

[Rhamiel]

Catholics have to accept dogma, but a massive amount of theology falls outside the realm of dogma. Thus within the Catholic church there is significant room for differing opinions on various issues.

we can say that about other denominations too?

Baptists have things you have to believe in if you are going to be a Baptist and things that are left up to the individual

 

[MoreCoffee]

Asking Catholics to prove things solely from the bible strikes me like trying to ask Protestants to prove things solely from Holy Tradition.

You make a good point but for the most part Catholics are very happy to show the sacred scriptures from which our beliefs are built. It is not so much that we do not show scripture for what we believe as it is that Protestants reject the scriptures and/or the interpretations we use.

 

[MoreCoffee]

we can say that about other denominations too?

Baptists have things you have to believe in if you are going to be a Baptist and things that are left up to the individual

It would be very difficult to be a Baptist and believe in paedopabtism by pouring without submersion

 

[GoingByzantine]

You make a good point but for the most part Catholics are very happy to show the sacred scriptures from which our beliefs are built. It is not so much that we do not show scripture for what we believe as it is that Protestants reject the scriptures and/or the interpretations we use.

Indeed, most things in the Catholic faith are biblically based or inspired. I have seen the trend as well, that some (not all) Protestants reject our interpretations on almost all matters. We might cite scripture, but then they will say that what we have cited is not good enough...simply because it does not match with their view.

Matthew 16:18 is a perfect example, we use it to justify that Jesus established our Church and also it can be used to justify our belief on Apostolic Succession, but most Protestants would quickly reject our interpretation. They need to at least try to understand our point of view, because we are always seemingly trying to understand theirs.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Indeed, most things in the Catholic faith are biblically based or inspired. I have seen the trend as well, that some (not all) Protestants reject our interpretations on almost all matters. We might cite scripture, but then they will say that what we have cited is not good enough...simply because it does not match with their view.

Matthew 16:18 is a perfect example, we use it to justify that Jesus established our Church and also it can be used to justify our belief on Apostolic Succession, but most Protestants would quickly reject our interpretation. They need to at least try to understand our point of view, because we are always seemingly trying to understand theirs.

Even if we didn't make any effort to understand their point of view we would still be making an effort to understand what the passage says. Matt 16:18-19 is a case in point. I am discussing it in GT under Apostolic succession and it is the devils own job to get people to read the passage without racing off to some other passage and ignoring completely what Matthew says.

 

[Saucy]

Can someone explain this to me? I (and many others) are taking this quote from the pope to mean you can't get saved outside of the Catholic church:

“No one becomes Christian on his or her own! Is that clear? No one becomes Christian by him or herself. Christians are not made in a laboratory. A Christian is part of a people who comes from afar. The Christian belongs to a people called the Church and this Church is what makes him or her Christian, on the day of Baptism, and then in the course of catechesis, and so on. But no one, no one becomes Christian on his or her own. If we believe, if we know how to pray, if we acknowledge the Lord and can listen to his Word, if we feel him close to us and recognize him in our brothers and sisters, it is because others, before us, lived the faith and then transmitted it to us. We have received the faith from our fathers, from our ancestors, and they instructed us in it.”
​

 

[graciesings]

Something I definitely see in that quote is an emphasis that fellowship is important, and that Christians need to raise each other up, teach each other, etc.

I think that, while salvation doesn't come from the Catholic church, God's grace is given through the sacraments. This doesn't mean that God can't give us saving grace from other places, but that he chooses to do so through Baptism, the Eucharist, etc.

The church (As in, the Church or as in the community of believers) is important, in that Christians encourage and teach others. I think that's something God means for us to pursue.

I know that I didn't become a Christian on my own. My parents gave me a lot of good direction. God just about forced me to believe, I really DID NOT want to be a Christian. I've had a lot of influence from outside sources to grow my faith.

 

[Saucy]

But isn't that getting saved by works? Doing Eucharist, Baptism and so on? It specifically says you can't get saved by works and it's a gift from God. So I don't know why the Catholic church would teach this.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Can someone explain this to me? I (and many others) are taking this quote from the pope to mean you can't get saved outside of the Catholic church:

I thought you wanted bible quotes? Now you want a pope quote to be explained?

BY the way, have you read Romans chapter ten recently?

Romans 10:9-21 KJV

(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
(15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
(16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
(17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
(19) But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
(20) But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
(21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.​

Obviously the pope is not the only one to think that conversion comes from the preaching and teaching of the faithful to those who hear and respond to the gospel.

 

[Paulie079]

I have a question:

If there were a Hug a Catholic Day, would you guys be up for that?

 

[Saucy]

This thread is called "The Catholic Church" and the point of it is to ask questions, which the second part of the question is how the church (the pope) thinks the Eucharist and Baptism and Sacraments are important for salvation when they are works, when the bible specifically says works cannot save you.