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The Catholic Church

Discussion in 'Singles (only*)' started by Rhamiel, Jun 24, 2014.

  1. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    why ask other people on earth to pray for you? God already knows what you need

    God knows everything, so why pray for anything?

    well, prayer to God is also worship, so praying with other people in worship is edifying, we are all one body but many parts, to ignore the members of the Church in heaven seems odd

    also, where does it say that a person can only hear one prayer at a time in heaven? a person on a mountain can see an entire village, this does not mean that they are "god-like" just they have perspective, heaven is a different perspective.

    also, as stated before, the saints are not "substitutes" for Jesus
    no one can take the place of Jesus
    but the Saints in heaven are united with us in the Body of Christ.
     
  2. Saucy

    Saucy Sprinkles are for winners. Supporter

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    Again, none of these are about purgatory. There's not even one mention of someone being held in a space until they are prayed out. There's not even a mention that such a place exists. It's not there. It was invented by the Catholic church.

    And that's why I hastily dismiss it because I KNOW it's not in the bible. You've given me like four verses that to you prove purgatory, but none of them even begin to hint at such a place existing. So it's a logical fallacy to dismiss it? Not to sound rude, but it sounds like a logical fallacy to accept the church's word that it exists when there's no evidence for it at all.
     
  3. Saucy

    Saucy Sprinkles are for winners. Supporter

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    Psalm 139:7 "Where can I go from your Spirit?" God is everywhere. Dead people aren't. The devil isn't. A single angel isn't. Someone on a mountain can see a town, but not every part of the town. But if a million people from that town started talking to me, could I hear them all? Could I understand them all at the same time?
     
  4. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    well the Pope can not change Church doctrine

    there are Church Councils, authoritative statements by previous Popes and Tradition and Scripture

    the idea is not that the Church is called to "discover new doctrines" and make up new beliefs
    the idea is that the Church is to preserve the faith handed down from the time of the Apostles
     
  5. Saucy

    Saucy Sprinkles are for winners. Supporter

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    i'm off to bed. Goodnight for now :)
     
  6. MrMoe

    MrMoe GET (ship) REKT M8

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    Catholics use this verse to show purgatory is a place even though it says "the day". This verse is talking about the day of judgment were we all will be judged by our works.

    And the fire is figurative. Remember God is called a consuming fire


    This is a earthly matter Jesus is talking about. Nothing to do with heaven or hell


    Catholics say Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven. If purgatory is a real place why weren't they taken there first? Were they sinless?
     
  7. GoingByzantine

    GoingByzantine Ukrainian Greek Catholic CF Ambassador

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    I think we all need to slow down here for a minute. We should catch our breath before this goes from a thread started in Good Faith and meant to promote understanding, and turns into a forum of misconceptions and disrespect.

    Saucy, it is clear that your Roommate has significantly altered your view of Catholicism in a very negative way. I apologize that he has done this, I am sure it was not intentional, but please don't let his misunderstandings make you hate the Catholic Church. I have been down this same path, I felt like I was being attacked by Protestants and that I was viewed as a heretic by my peers (I suspect you feel much the same from your Roommate). So I went on the attack against Protestantism, man was I so bitter, for months I posted on this forum as if I was a Crusader against Protestantism. Then one day it hit me that I was not showing love, and kindness to my fellow Christian. I stepped back, and learned more about the positives of Protestantism and developed a deeper understanding for my brethren. Today I am all about fellowship and unity, amongst us brethren. Its always best to try to find the positives in things as well.

    Now when you say "chapter and verse", please take into account that us Catholics believe in more than Scripture Alone...a theology that dates mostly to the reformation. So be aware that our theology is slightly different than your own, and try to understand where we come from. Sacred Scripture is extremely important, but we also have more than just that. Apostolic traditions are those that are passed on not solely through written word, but also the unwritten. (See John 20:30-31, 21:25; 1 Corinthians 11:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:15). So not all of our traditions come straight from written word, most can be explained by it though, and some come down from unwritten word. This is just our way, you might disagree, but can you at least see where we are coming from?

    Also bear in mind, that even within the Catholic Church there are differing views on a number of issues including Purgatory...it is not black and white. There are many different ways to go about the Catholic faith, and to interpret Catholic teaching.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
    graciesings likes this.
  8. Cearbhall

    Cearbhall Unitarian Universalist; university student

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    This is what doesn't make sense to me. There's no reason to think that RCC writings are any more corrupt than the Bible. They came about in the exact same way. If I didn't agree with something, then I didn't believe in it, but I never made this decision based on the origin. Especially considering that the RCC is much more scientific and logical than the Bible. I knew that it was all just different people trying to make sense of what they thought God wanted, or else making up crap that promoted their own agendas. Some lived early enough to get published in the Bible, and some didn't.

    I guess this is where the differences come in regarding how Protestants tend to prefer a literal interpretation of the Bible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  9. Paulie079

    Paulie079 Guest

    This is a bit of a leap to make. The truth of the doctrine of sanctification isn't contingent on the existence of purgatory.

    Purgatory, from the perspective given by the quotes you posted, seems like another example of an overreach concerning sanctification using certain verses/analogies similar to the way that Nazarenes overreach with their doctrine of entire sanctification.

    The idea of purgatory and the fact that people believe in it doesn't really bother me, though. I'm just glad that gone are the days when the RCC uses the concept for its own monetary gain.
     
  10. Paulie079

    Paulie079 Guest

    There are several things that I run into with the Catholic church that I very strongly disagree with. I'm not really intending to make all of these discussion points because they're all over the place.

    Transubstantiation - We talked about this in another thread.

    The idea of an infallible Pope in any way, shape, or form - No man ever is or will be infallible on this present earth other than Christ.

    Praying to saints - This one doesn't bother me toooo much. I'd just rather ask for people I know to pray for me instead of dead guys.

    Purgatory - As I said before, just seems like an overreach.

    Absolution by the priest - This one really seems unnecessary to me. There's nothing wrong with the priest telling someone they've been forgiven as long as the person understands that it's by Christ's atoning work for them that they've been forgiven and not the authority of the priest. But this leads me to my next issue...

    Authority - The RCC takes the idea of the authority of the church much too far. I have as much ability to affirm someone that they have been forgiven of their sins as a priest does.

    View of Scripture - This would be my biggest point of contention. I disagree with the inclusion of extra books in the canon, and I strongly disagree with the idea that it is not closed. I also disagree with any notion that any person or even the church itself would stand on par with the authority of Scripture. All churches and denominations must submit themselves to the authority of the Bible, and any that do not are no longer Christian. Reason, tradition, and experience are authorities to us as well, but those are subject to the authority of the Bible. Sacred Tradition? No. Sacred Tradition is neither infallible nor God-breathed. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. It's also for this reason that I would never recommend attending a Catholic church to anyone. I don't mean to sound harsh, I just view this issue with a great deal of seriousness.

    View of works - This is the last one I'll mention, but it's very loose because I'm not sure of the RCC's official standing on this issue (so I'm open to being educated on this). I have simply heard here and there that many Catholics believe that it is not by Christ's atoning sacrifice alone, but by our works as well that we are saved. I did actually have a face-to-face conversation with a guy once over this issue, and he was staunchly convinced that we are saved by our works.

    Of course, this isn't too far off from many evangelical churches who implicitly teach the same thing in the sense that because they don't communicate the gospel clearly, they believe that God's view of them (and for some even their salvation) changes based on how well they behave. That's how I really grew up thinking if I'm honest.

    I would never use the RCC's past atrocities as an indictment against Catholic churches/doctrine just because that was a long time ago and those practices are no longer in place, and because Protestants have a great deal of their own historical dirty laundry. I don't think you can fairly judge a belief system based on behavior by its followers that is contrary to what it actually teaches.

    So there you have it. I'm not here to beat you guys up, and I'm totally open and willing to be educated where I have wrongly reflected your beliefs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2014
  11. Saucy

    Saucy Sprinkles are for winners. Supporter

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    When I study the bible, I see a lot of things that are gritty and tough for our cultured, modern minds cringe at. But what I do know and had to learn, just because I don't accept a view doesn't make it untrue. Picking and choosing what you want to believe isn't any kind of real faith. You might as well start your own religion and go from there.

    But I also see a lot of things people have problems with that when you look at the context, it's not what you think. Some are atheists who just go to atheist websites and let them say what the bible has written in it, like slavery, God condoning rape and on and on. But one thing my pastor has taught me is when you're reading the bible, understand that certain words and terms have changed over the centuries.

    Like the word slave is different. You will find the word 'unicorn' in the bible and atheists mock it, but it isn't the mythological horse you think of. It was a one-horned Rhino. People mock the cloven hoof or rabbit that chews on cud. But they didn't have biologists and the animal classifications they do today. So I try to understand the culture.

    With that being said, it's clear that God gave the bible as His word. What frustrates me is that the Catholic church adds to and changes what has been written. What gives them the authority, but the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and the like can't do the same? They believe they had the right and God gave them the truth.

    But how do we tell the difference between the true word of God and a cult? By how their doctrines line up with God's word. So how can I accept something that a man has changed or goes against even what Christ taught?

    Again, the idea of purgatory isn't in the bible. So because the Catholic church says it exists, I must accept that it accepts? I don't think so. Why should I believe the things they say about Mary when those in the bible didn't hold her up as high as the Catholic church does? It's hard for me to do.
     
  12. chaela

    chaela ◕‿◕

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    Thank you for starting this thread, Rhamiel.

    I do have one question pertaining to 'mortal sin' as it relates to the
    receiving of the Eucharist.

    From what I have read, one of the benefits of receiving the Eucharist is
    that it cleanses one of venial sins (source).

    However, as the Church teaches, if one has committed any mortal sins that
    they're aware of, they need to confess those first before receiving
    Communion.

    What I would like to find out is how, or why, it was determined that mortal
    sin falls outside of the Eucharist's power to heal/cleanse?

    As it currently stands, the Eucharist appears to be medicine for those who
    are already healthy, and the more in need of this medicine one is, the less
    qualified they are to receive it. It just seems backwards, imo.

    Thanks in advance for shedding light on this. :)


    -
     
  13. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    Paulie, you go over a lot, I hope you do not mind if I hack up your post a bit?

    Infallible does not mean sinless, it means free from error, and our view of the Papacy does not mean that every utterance is free from error, but only very specific cases, in the history of the Catholic Church, there have only been a handful of things counted as infallible, the Ecumenical Councils and a few authoritative statements by Popes.

    you said that no one but Christ is infallible, lets use define it really quickly "protected by God from error"
    so if no man has ever been infallible, then Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (and all the other people who wrote the Bible) may have written things that are wrong?
    I do not think this, but I am not the one saying that infallibility is impossible.

    the basic idea is the same, God protects His Church. the idea is that God would not let the Gospel writer say something untrue, and as a Catholic, I do not believe God would allow the Church to teach error.

    James 5:15-16
    14Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

    it is not "oh your sins are forgiven no matter what"
    it is, do this, and if you have sinned you will be forgiven.

    John 20:23
    If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven

    that last part in John 20:23 seems odd, if confession to a priest was not part of the Christian religion, then why would Jesus add the part about not forgiving?

    oh so much to deal with here :) like there are a million things I have to say and I am not sure where to start

    why do you view these books as "extra" books?
    you have to have a standard to judge from before you say if something has extra or not enough.
    that is a serious problem I see with Sola Scripture, the books of the Bible do not contain within themselves a list of what books are to be counted as Cannon.

    if Sola Scripture says that all doctrines are to be found directly in the Bible, then either the cannon of scripture is not important or you are using an authority other then the Bible for doctrine
    not even all the books of the Old Testament are quoted in the New Testament.
    and what right do we have to say that a letter that Paul wrote to the Corinthians is on the same level as the book of Genesis?
    most people have heard of the Gnostic Gospels like the Gospel of Thomas, how can we say that is NOT scripture?

    I have no problem with this, I believe in a Church that God has given authority to. That is protected from teaching error, so when they say "these books are all scripture" I just say ok

    as for the "extra" books that Catholics use, I believe that they are part of the Bible just like all the other books of Scripture. Why do you say they are not?

    and I am not insulted that you do not recommend people attend Catholic services, we do not agree on things, why would you recommend people go to a place that you think has wrong teachings? Just seems logical.


    uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhg

    lots of Catholics really suck

    we do NOT earn our salvation, we can not earn our way into heaven
    the Catholic Church does not teach that but so many Catholics were poorly taught that they do not really make this distinction.

    ok... uhg sorry.... I know you are being honest but it just really makes me sad that so many Catholics really mess this up.

    ok, lets me pepper you with some more Bible verses
    John 14:15
    If you love me, keep my commands.

    the parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25:31-46 has Jesus focusing on the actions done by people.

    St. Paul several times gives a list of people (idolaters, fornicators, ect) who will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

    not everyone who runs wins the crown 1 Corinthians 9:25

    you do not earn your way into heaven, it is all about His grace
    but we have to accept His grace, and choosing sin is a rejection of God

    kind of like Adam and Eve, they did not earn the garden of Eden, they did not work for it. but in choosing sin, they rejected that free gift that was given by God.

    another thing, we can not resist sin on our own, so if we do resist temptation, it is all because of the grace of God
    so there is no room for pride in the economy of Salvation

    [/QUOTE]
    So there you have it. I'm not here to beat you guys up, and I'm totally open and willing to be educated where I have wrongly reflected your beliefs.[/QUOTE]
    you were being honest and open, I appreciate it
    I am so sorry if I came across as too combative in my responses
     
  14. Saucy

    Saucy Sprinkles are for winners. Supporter

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    then what about losing grace? If you do not earn salvation, then how can you lose it? You would, each time you lose it through sin, earn it back by saying this or doing that. My Catholic roommate believes you are not saved unless you take communion in the Catholic church, that if you do not believe it is the REAL body and blood of Jesus, you can lose/not gain salvation. You must be baptized, etc. These are all works and the bible does not declare them important for salvation.
     
  15. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    Catholics here have given you verses that we think point to the existence of Purgatory, you do not agree with those our interpretation
    ok, we have disagreements, but it is not like we just made it up, we just disagree on how to interpret the Bible when it comes to Purgatory.

    you said it is clear that the Bible is the word of God....
    how is it clear that those 73 books (or 66 for you) are the word of God?
    there are 10 books of the Old Testament that are never quoted in the New Testament and how do you decide which, if any, of the epistles in the New Testament are counted as Holy Scripture.

    Protestantism came around 1500 years after Christ was born, so a lot of that heavy lifting was already taken care of. But that was not a job that was done by Sola Scripture, that was a job that was done by Christians who believed in a visible Church that had real authority
     
  16. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    how can you loose grace?

    how did Adam and Eve loose eternal life and the unearned joy of being in Eden?

    and the "saying this or doing that" is repenting of our sins and trusting in Jesus

    as for the importance of Baptism, I do not have time to go into that right now but thank you for brining it up
     
  17. Cearbhall

    Cearbhall Unitarian Universalist; university student

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    You're free to feel that way. Many people don't agree. I don't.
    Yes, like everyone else. You just happen to interpret the Bible differently.
    The idea is that a mortal sin actually separates you from God, so accepting the Eucharist would just be a lie and therefore offensive. If you died while in a state of mortal sin, you wouldn't go to Heaven. A venial sin doesn't do this.
     
  18. graciesings

    graciesings It is so ordered.

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    Bump. That's an interesting thought and I'd like to see Rhamiel, Lord of the Forum, or GoingByzantine reply to it.

    my guess is that it has something to do with the verse (which I remember exists but can't find anywhere) about how it's bad for someone to take the Eucharist in a state of unbelief. I guess a state of unrepentant mortal sin is considered unbelief... right?
     
  19. chaela

    chaela ◕‿◕

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    Yes, I'm aware of this explanation, and can understand it to a degree.

    The reason I can't really accept it fully is because I believe that God is
    omnipresent. Therefore, the idea of being separated from Him doesn't make
    much sense to me; the notion is as difficult for me to grasp as that of a
    barefoot boy with shoes on, or a square circle. :)

    Besides that, it really doesn't answer the question of why mortal sin would
    even have this effect in the first place, given that God's power can trump
    it in a fraction of a millisecond.

    So, the "you aren't healthy enough to take this medicine" factor is still
    kind of there.

    The only instance I can think of where one would be too sick for a
    particular medication is if that medication wasn't potent enough to deal
    with their illness... and in the case of God's power vs. my sin, I'm not
    about to presume that God isn't potent enough to come near it, let alone
    deal with it. That takes a kind of nerve I just don't have! :)

    I've always been under the impression that human sin—of any
    kind—is inferior to God. My problem (if it can even be called that :D )
    is that my perception of God's power is so high that it simply
    doesn't allow me to see sin as even standing a chance against it;
    therefore, to take in that power via the Eucharist would be the
    spiritual equivalent of going nuclear against any sin within the
    recipient. I find this narrative far more glorifying to God than the
    old, worn-out one about it being a kind of desecration, as though
    God were some helpless victim trapped inside the wafer to be
    consumed by the unwashed masses (no pun intended). If it really
    were the latter, I have a hunch that cases like that of Ananais and
    Sapphira would be more the rule than the exception (and I would
    think that their offense was somewhat less severe than that of
    taking communion unworthily, given the intensity of objection on
    the latter)





    -
     
  20. graciesings

    graciesings It is so ordered.

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    I have to say, I also struggle with a similar thing... I have a hard time understanding the line between mortal and venial sin, because all of it feels terrible to me.
     
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