the apocalypse

[victorinus]

Wow, that is kind of crazy, I just so happened to have written an article/thread on who The Great Harlot of Rev. 17 is and who Babylon of Rev. 18 is, but I didn't want to get off topic. If you are interested I could give you a link, if that's allowed, or I could post it here, but I didn't want to take your thread into an area you had not intended.

God Bless brother, great thread here.....

thank you -
link away brother -
I found the harlot of 17 is the babylon of 18 -
what's the difference?

 

[victorinus]

the three johns
-
this is perhaps the most outrageous part of my presentation -
so let's get this over with -
I am not the first one to suggest that john the baptist first wrote the apocalypse - nor am I the first one to suggest there were multiple authors -
I am the first one to suggest that they were all named john, all three of them, just as they are mentioned in the first chapter -
it all starts with eusebius and victorinus who don't seem to be aware of the seven churches and it makes you wonder what they were reading-
they were reading "ancient copies" of the apocalypse written by john the baptist who obviously did not mention the churches or antipas -
it is just a theory but it is the only thing that makes sense -
today it is easy to research this stuff, it is all online
-
I will be adding to this as time permits -
btw -
the time was near -
when john the baptist was preparing the way
-
back to the apocalypse

 

[Douggg]

..... SO.....In both instances, the Saints were given into his hand for 42 Months or a Time, Times and a 1/2 a Time = 42 Months. This is the Same Beast Systems

It is not a beast system(s). There is no system terminology in any of those verses or any bible prophecy passage. It is not talking about a "system", but about a person.

What the information in Daniel 7 is indicating the person labeled the little horn in that chapter is the same person labeled the beast in Revelation 13.

The same person is labeled the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:17

The same person is labeled the Antichrist in 1John2:18

The same person is labeled the (willful) king in Daniel 11:36

The same person is labeled the man of sin in 2thessalonians2:3-4

It is not talking about a "system". There is no "system" beast or otherwise, in the text anywhere.

So He comes South, East and Towards Israel. A Kingdom from Greece/Europe would conquer towards the South, and East no doubt, and towards Israel so the Anti-Christ/Little Horn arises from Greece/Revived Rome/European Union.

He comes with a strong army from Greece, but I would not say he himself is necessarily from Greece. Greece is the place he will stage a strong EU army before heading down toward Israel.

The Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8 is the very same Beast as in Revelation 13 and 17.

The person who starts out as the little horn in Chapter 7 becomes the beast in Revelation 13 and parts of Revelation 17. As long as you don't start interjecting beast "system" into the text.

.....But....The other Kingdoms/Beasts did not lose their Kingdoms IMMEDIATELY !! When they were conquered, their lives were prolonged for a season and time, most of these Kingdoms survived as a conquered Kingdom of peoples, or some regained a minor Kingdom status, but they were not Destroyed Immediately like the Anti-Christ and the Last Beast System will be.

All it means is that there will be many of the same nations around during the messianic 1000 year reign of Jesus here on earth, following Armageddon; but not the EU. There is no such thing as "systems" in the text of the bible.

 

[Douggg]

I disagree that this Beast is the King of Israel, I think scriptures shows that he has a "Peace Deal" or Covenant with Israel that he Breaks, and all Israel id Aghast/Stunned that he places an Image in the Temple. I agree with most here, but not the King of Israel part.

I wrote that before the person becomes the beast - he will be the king of Israel (the Antichrist) for a short period.

Don't you know what the term Christ means?
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

The Anti - Christ will be someone who become the King of Israel, who is against and instead of Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

Again, there is no peace deal. You are getting that because it has be popularized for decades by well known bible commentators based on Daniel 8, that the person destroys many by peace. But it is a wrong idea.

The "for 7 years" is in the bible, in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. But those commentators were/still are unaware of it.

What are the Jews expecting that they would think the person is their long awaited messiah? I am pretty sure that you are weak in this area, which is impacting your entire end times understanding (negatively).


.

 

[Revealing Times]

And exactly how many Jews read the new testament, or have heard to flee into the wilderness when they see the Abomination of Desolation setup?

Jews have been told about the coming Antichrist for 2000 years - do you know what they say? That there is no mention of an Antichrist in the Tanach (the old testament) and everything in New Testament is irrelavent to Judaism. They say when the "real" messiah shows up - Christianity will fade away as he starts fulfilling all of the things the messiah is supposed to do.

Again, we have to put this together, by using scriptures, like a Mosaic.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. { So she has to be protected for how long ? 42 Months/3 1/2 years from Satan. So this is a clue, she Flees at the Mid-way point.}

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. { Right after the Angel announces Babylon (the last Beast System) has Fallen, meaning judgments are coming upon here, God/Angel tells Israel to come out of her, so they will not partake of her sins or plagues.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened (Blood of Jesus)to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. 2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. ( So Israel calls upon God when she is attacked, and God reveals Jesus to them as their true Messiah. So, Israel will be Supernaturally informed, that Jesus is their Messiah, and they will be TAKEN BY EAGLES WINGS....This eagles wings is always referring to something being protected by God Himself. )

Israel also understand the Abomination of Desolation from Daniel 9:27, so once they understand Jesus is their Messiah, supernaturally, they will no doubt read up on the Red Letter words of the Messiah Jesus, you can read all four gospels in one day, but I imagine the Holy Spirit will warn them of what is coming.

The Antichrist doesn't make a peace deal involving the Jews for 7 years. He will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant - by overseeing the reading of the covenant (the law) to the nation of Israel - which is a requirement Moses made for all future generations, every 7 years to do the commemorative reading. The 7 years is right in the text of Deuteronomy 31:9-13.
in verse 10.

That the Antichrist destroys many by peace is that the Jews will think they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety - but the Antichrist violates the Mt. Sinai covenant by stopping the daily sacrifice and claiming to have achieved God-hood. The Jews will be mortified, and will reject his claim, and his continuing as their king of Israel - for which, the person begins persecuting them, all the way to the day when Jesus returns.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Using the Hebrew, lets see what this actually means:
1.) CONFIRM= gabar 1396, meaning to prevail, be strong, be insolent.
2.) COVENANT= bariyth 1235, meaning, alliance, pledge between men, treaty, alliance, league (man to man)
3.) OVERSPREADING= kanaph 3671 meaning an edge, wing, extremity, quarters [of a building] are a pinnacle
4.) ABOMINATIONS= shiqquwts 8251 meaning disgusting, filthy, idolatrous or an Idol.
5.) DESOLATE= shamem 8074 meaning to stun, stupefy, make numb or devastate.

1. So this person is insolent and pretty much forces this agreement upon Israel, just look around now, the whole world tries to condemn Israel and to force her into Peace Agreements with her enemies even now, it will only get worse.
2. This of course means an alliance, looking at #1 it means a Forced alliance or treaty.
3. Something is placed in a wing, and extremity or pinnacle of a building, but what is it ? SEE #4 Below.
4. It is something filthy or disgusting to Israel, it is an Idol, and what does Rev. 13 says about the False Prophet creating an Image/Idol ? Rev. 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
5. And of course this STUNS, STUPEFIES Israel, makes them Numb, shocks them, devastates them.

So this Verse here, properly interpreted, tells us Israel does not look at this Man as the Messiah, if they did, then this Idol of him in their Temple wouldn't cause them to be Shocked or Stunned. He forces this Idol into God's Temple, and claims to be the ONLY GOD, and forbids worship of any other God/god. This is when God supernaturally reveals Jesus to Israel as their Messiah, and they repent (Zechariah 12:10) and then, and only then, will God save Israel, from the Wicked one who seeks to destroy them.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

Satan's beast in the little horn of Daniel's visions will never be the king of Israel

"Antichrist" means "against" Jesus Christ .... who is the king of Israel

The beast will be a war monger from the get go and no human invention will stop him

And Israel will know that he is there most virulent enemy with intent to destroy the tiny nation

The idea that this beast will make some sort of peace treaty with Israel to fool the nation is a ruse

It is the Lord himself who will confirm the covenant that He has with His national people of Israel who turn to Him during the tribulation [Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 20:33-44; Daniel 9:24-27]

Satan's beast is the one who will come to desecrate Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount [Jeremiah 30:8; Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 11:41; Micah 5:5-6; Matthew 24:15-16; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12; Revelation 11:2-7; 12:6; 12:14; 13:1-5]

And the Lord will finish him off at the battle of Armageddon [Revelation 19:19-21]

 

[John Davidson]

@OP

This is madness. They should make pills for this.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

Scads of stuff above .... this is good .... it shows that there are still some who have an interest in the Lord's prophetic word .... a rare thing today since most of the divides of professing Christianity have walked away from the same and instead have filled the void with all sorts of false teaching

I would suggest that it might be good to focus a bit more and deal with smaller parts of the whole on this thread .... and a little slower so that the thread does not run away in a flurry

I see some really good things and some of the material is questionable in my opinion

So I noticed one particular question when briefly looking over the responses and I will address it here .... if I can then get through to more statements or questions, I will respond

I generally just pick out an item that I see and then quote the matter .... and then give my view of the same rather than copying and pasting large amounts of verbiage

Here is one question that I saw from Doug:

"If Abaddon is not released until Satan is cast down from the war in heaven in Revelation 12 - how can Abaddon kill the two witness to end the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 - which is before Satan is cast down in Revelation 12:12-13?

Satan will be cast to the earth at the beginning of the tribulation .... he is the star [Revelation 9:1] and also the one who will be allowed to release Abaddon from the abyss [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

Revelation 12 is a repeating of the same event giving further details

Revelation is a series of individual visions that repeat with further details in a layering fashion, but not necessarily in chronological order ... so I would suggest that one look for material on a particular subject presented in the visions first

The frame work set for the tribulation period of is a mirror of the 70th week decreed for Israel plus another 30 days for the battle of Armageddon for a total of 2550 days

Satan, His beast, and his false prophet, and the other fallen angels will be present on the earth during all of 2520 days of the 70th week .... the beast and false prophet will be destroyed at the battle of Armageddon and Satan will be sent to the abyss just after [Revelation 20:1-3]

 

[victorinus]

666
-
this is almost as outrageous as my three john theory -
what happened in the year 666?
historians stay away from it, far away from it -
gibbon got within 2 years of it but it required a calculation -
many versions including the niv call for a calculation -
here is the gibbon calculation -
"Forty-six years after the flight of Mahomet from Mecca, his disciples appeared in arms under the walls of Constantinople"
using an islamic calendar converter you get exactly 666 -
which brings me to 15:2 -
"2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."
the sea of marmara is said to be like a sea of glass on a calm day -
they used greek fire to defeat the muslims -
the year was 666
-
back to the apocalypse

 

[Straightshot]

My position is that the book of Revelation is all future and not a part of the past

There are two passages of scripture in Revelation's unfolding that do have historical reach backs for overview [Revelation 12; 17] .... the balance of the book is all future and still pending as we speak

It appears to me that you hold some sort of an historical view that would include the last 2000 years of history .... so for example I see your dating of 666 as being not a part of Revelation's unfolding .... there are no events over the last 2000 years recorded in the prophetic visions

Here is why ..... the prophetic visions are all a focus upon the 70 weeks of years decreed for the nation of Israel [Daniel 9:24-27]

All but 70th week have been consummated which is still pending

So your particular dating falls in the breach between which is not a part of the scope of the prophetic visions

I do see your reference to Islam and this is significant because it is the Middle Eastern Muslims who will form the basis of the kingdom of Satan's beast at the time of the end during the coming tribulation

Mohammed's formation of the Islamic religion lies outside of the prophetic visions, but it is this religion that will be the cult religion of the beast during the coming 70th week decreed for Israel

 

[victorinus]

My position is that the book of Revelation is all future and not a part of the past

thank you for that -
I wish you had said that with your first post -
I think it is important to let others know where you are coming from -
a lot of problems can be avoided

 

[Straightshot]

You would have to read my postings on the forum in order to understand my views

So others here know where I am coming from for the most part .... I let everybody know, in detail

If you are interested, ask and I will withhold nothing about any subject of biblical proportion on matters of the Lord's more sure word of prophecy that you want to know

 

[victorinus]

You would have to read my postings on the forum in order to understand my views

that would be over 3000 posts -
it only takes one post to let us know your are a futurist -
-
in the opening post I stated why I would not use the Historicist Only tag

 

[John Davidson]

666 -
babylon the great - constantinople -
rider of the white horse - constantine -
rider of the red horse - mohammed -
rider of the black horse - marx -
the first beast - the roman empire -
the second beast - islam -
the seven heads - the seven dynasties of the roman empire -
the ten horns - the ten islamic dynasties -
the thousand years - the byzantine empire -
the three johns - john the baptist and two more johns -
the two witnesses - church and state -
-
this is twenty years of research -
will discuss the results -
will present the books used -
looking forward to discussing all aspects of the apocalypse -
I chose not to use the Historicist Only tag because I want to include all in this dialogue

I think trying to understand every bit of Revelation and fit it into history is folly.

 

[victorinus]

I think trying to understand every bit of Revelation and fit it into history is folly.

how else would you determine whether or not to put it all into the future?

 

[Straightshot]

"it only takes one post to let us know your are a futuris"


Good .... now I know that you know .... carry on

 

[victorinus]

"it only takes one post to let us know your are a futurist"


Good .... now I know that you know .... carry on

how or when does a futurist become an historicist?

 

[Douggg]

Israel also understand the Abomination of Desolation from Daniel 9:27, so once they understand Jesus is their Messiah, supernaturally, they will no doubt read up on the Red Letter words of the Messiah Jesus, you can read all four gospels in one day, but I imagine the Holy Spirit will warn them of what is coming.

You think Jews keep a copy of the Christian bible in their homes? Not hardly. And they believe that everything in Daniel 9 has already been fulfilled.

1. So this person is insolent and pretty much forces this agreement upon Israel, just look around now, the whole world tries to condemn Israel and to force her into Peace Agreements with her enemies even now, it will only get worse.

How does a forced peace agreement on Israel cause a falling away in Christianity? There is no mention of a "peace" agreement in Daniel 9. There is nothing about "peace" in the text.

Daniel 9 begins with Daniel's confession to God that his people Israel transgressed the Mt. Sinai covenant between them and God. That is the only covenant in Daniel 9.

Regarding the confirming of the (Mt. Sinai) covenant for 7 years, the Jews view the new covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 as being a "renewal" of the Mt. Sinai covenant. Which, when the person confirms the Mt Sinai covenant for 7 will be fulfilling just what they expect.

So this Verse here, properly interpreted, tells us Israel does not look at this Man as the Messiah, if they did, then this Idol of him in their Temple wouldn't cause them to be Shocked or Stunned.

What? The Jews believe that the messiah is soley a man, not any kind of deity about him.

 

[Straightshot]

"how or when does a futurist become an historicist?"


At the juncture where the Bible Bible prophets draw the line in exactly the same place

All fulfilled prophecy is historical ... all unfulfilled prophecy is still pending

This line is clearly drawn by every prophet .... the things fulfilled and can be verified by the historical record with 100% accuracy

All future things will not be found in any prophet's visions with careful analysis

The frame work for the divide is found in the 70 weeks of Years decreed for Israel

69 weeks transpired at the Lord's cutting off in the first century .... the 70th week has been delayed which contains all of the balance and beyond

If you are a student of the prophets you will find that they all mark the line in the same exact place

Here is an example of the divide [Daniel 11:35 ......... 11:36-45]

 

[Riberra]

666

666 hidden in plain sight:

If you examine the so-called “Star of David,” or hexagram, closely, you will discover something astonishing. It has six points, forms six equilateral triangles, and in its interior forms a six sided hexagon — thus it reveals the number of Satan’ antichrist beast, — 6 points, 6 triangles, and the 6 sides of the hexagram — 666 !!!


The ‘666’ Star of David is also known as the Satanic Hexagram! Do you really believe the God of the Bible will lead His beloved Israel using a ‘666’ flag? I don’t think so! Zionist ‘666’ Israel is a Satanic counterfeit. It is not the Israel of the Bible! Do not be deceived !

Revelation 2:9 – …. and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.[/img]

The 12 tribes of Israel are still dispersed among the Nations.Very few true Jews have returned.
The TRUE gathering in the Land will happen unto the Coming of Jesus at the beginning of the millennium.