The Administration Of Tongues

[Imagican]

Also, let us examine this:

In Charismatic Churches that practice gibberish and insist that it is the 'tongues of the Bible', it has been my observation that they also practice something that they label: 'being slain in the Spirit'. An idea that one, when filled with the Holy Spirit, can LOOSE control of their physical body. Most often falling backwards when it takes place.

I did a study on these 'gifts' of the Charismatic Churches. The first step was to read the ENTIRE Bible, first page to the last, and making note of any and EVERYTHING that had even the most REMOTE connection.

You know, in the ENTIRE Bible, the ONLY instances where ANYONE fell backwards it was due to EVIL, not good. When people fell due to the Spirit, it was ALWAYS FORWARD. They fell TO THEIR KNEES. Not backwards.

And another strange part of the subject. When those such as Beni Hindi and most others 'slap' someone on the forehead in order to 'fill them with The Spirit', it is ironic that the indication is that it is the Spirit that causes one to fall. But they always have a couple of people standing behind them to catch them. Now SERIOUSLY, if the claim that it is the Holy Spirit that causes one to FALL backwards, wouldn't it be acting in contradiction to the will of the Spirit to CATCH them? I mean REALLY. That would kind of be like taping the mouths shut of those the Spirit gives utterance.

But once again, such practices DO mimic those of another religion: Voodoo. Where individuals loose control of their physical bodies. But they do NOT claim the 'spirit' that possesses them to be HOLY. They openly admit that they are EVIL spirits that possess their bodies.

In a court of law, civil law, it is the preponderance of evidence that prevails. If those of the Charismatic Churches were to try and defend themselves in a civil court, they wouldn't stand a chance. For they SAY one thing, but all the EVIDENCE speaks of 'something else'. They INSIST that their ACTS are the workings of the Holy Spirit. But the BIBLE mentions none of these SIGNS or instances being of 'the Holy Spirit. No 'slain in the Spirit', no 'gibberish being tongues or languages'. No falling backwards, no flopping around on the ground or barking like a dog or running up and down the isles. NONE of this is Biblical. But it ALL resembles the same physical ACTS of 'Voodoo'. Now isn't that IRONIC.

And then when someone like me comes along and tries to point out the TRUTH, the instant reaction is basically: I don't care that it isn't Biblical, I KNOW what I've seen or what I've experienced and I KNOW it's the Holy Spirit. Yet without ANY instruction that it's even POSSIBLE from the Bible. Strange indeed. Very suspicious considering that the apostles WARNED us not to accept or create ANY doctrine that they hadn't introduced. And if not introduced by THEM, then WHO?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Righttruth]

A few days back, I decided to open-heartedly re-read the scripture that talks about Tongues in detail(1Corinthians14). And while I did that, I believed the Holy Spirit to help me with revelation (I believe I have the Holy Spirit In me; and he always guides me into all truth). And I know he did.
And here is what I got, And I want you to judge the revelation...

To this end he, says; "Therefore, I will Pray in the Spirit, then I will Pray in understanding".

This is the typical mistake people do. It is 'pray in the spirit', not in the Spirit as you have quoted.

The crux of problem lies in reading Holy Spirit when He is not there by conveniently converting lower case letter to upper case claiming the work of the Holy Ghost. Unknown tongue speaking is that of the emotional person's spirit, not that of the Holy Spirit!

 

[Righttruth]

A few days back, I decided to open-heartedly re-read the scripture that talks about Tongues in detail(1Corinthians14). And while I did that, I believed the Holy Spirit to help me with revelation (I believe I have the Holy Spirit In me; and he always guides me into all truth). And I know he did.
And here is what I got, And I want you to judge the revelation...


To this end he, says; "Therefore, I will Pray in the Spirit, then I will Pray in understanding".

This is the source of the misunderstanding. You pray in the spirit, not in the Spirit. This kind of converting lower case letter to upper case is being done deliberately to claim the act of the Holy Spirit!

 

[Righttruth]

Deleted, please see the reply no. 222 & 223.

 

[Righttruth]

So Imagican, you're audacious enough to declare(blaspheme) that all the miraculous results we obtained-some of which I shared here- are from demons? Will you be audacious enough to proclaim that?

Miraculous works could be attributed to demons also. Other religions, sects and denominations admit miraculous cures without misbehaving, speaking gibberish and acrobatics! True believers seek eternal life through Jesus Christ, not satisfied with temporal reliefs.

You know many followed Jesus for food and healing. Not many were willing take up the cross and become His disciples.

There cannot be any unknown language to the Holy Spirit! So He won't speak in gibberish.

 

[Hillsage]

To all seekers who might be here. Study hard to come to a knowledge of the truth. For translators not having tongues from the baptism of power from the Holy Spirit, could never, in humbleness, admit their lack or deficiency. They therefore had to mistranslate to conceal Fundaspiritualism from Fundamentalism. So it is up to you to have "love for the truth".

LUK 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power/dunnamis from on high.

Nobody receives 'The Holy Spirit' from on high, they receive "POWER" from the Holy Spirit.

ACT 1:8 But ye shall receive power/dunnamis, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

And the POWER the Father promises is what the disciples received on the day of Pentecost.

As the recent posts confirm, to those of us who do speak in tongues "which no MAN understands", we can easily see that 'deception' still goes on today. Since it is not the Holy Spirit who doesn't understand tongues, as as was recently posted. But discern for yourselves whether this untruth which was laid at our feet does not truly come as an attempted deceptive slight from their hand.

Then have compassion for them because they simply don't understand the POWER of the Holy Spirit behind the gift of a language they call gibberish. But scripture warns of those who are "unlearned" and "ignorant" concerning this supernatural power so readers must beware as to who truly speaks 'the truth'.

1CO 14:11 but if I do not know the meaning/dunnamis/POWER of the language/phone/VOICE, I shall be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.

Indeed most here do not experientially know "the POWER" from The Holy Spirit which is behind the "VOICE" which pours forth from our spirit. A voice which "no man understands".

Even most of those 'with tongues' do not understand what I believe I've presented here. Sorry B.

 

[Biblicist]

This is the typical mistake people do. It is 'pray in the spirit', not in the Spirit as you have quoted.

The crux of problem lies in reading Holy Spirit when He is not there by conveniently converting lower case letter to upper case claiming the work of the Holy Ghost. Unknown tongue speaking is that of the emotional person's spirit, not that of the Holy Spirit!

At least you recognise that when people such as yourself 'pray' that they do so in their own strength where the Spirit of God has no part in it. For those of us who both know the Lord and where his Spirit dwells within us, when we obey the Scriptures by allowing the Spirit of God to pray through us to the Father, then the following words have full meaning for us, where the world simply stands back with complete ambivelance:

“The Pentecost narrative of Acts 2 is an eschatological event, in which the coming of the resurrection Spirit renews the covenantal community in anticipation of the parousia, and tongues is a theophanic sign of divine self-disclosure like that of the burning bush in the calling of Moses and the giving of the Law. As an eschatological foretaste, speaking in tongues is a cry for liberation, a "cry of abandonment;' which symbolizes the liberating force of the Spirit in breaking down racial, gender and class barriers. Glossolalia embodies an equalizing impulse in levelling all languages and human strivings, pointing to the inauguration of divine justice and mercy in its "groaning" for the suffering of creation yearning for liberation”.

Prof. Peter Althouse​

 

[Biblicist]

Double post.

 

[Hillsage]

At least you recognise that when people such as yourself 'pray' that they do so in their own strength where the Spirit of God has no part in it. For those of us who both know the Lord and where his Spirit dwells within us, when we obey the Scriptures by allowing the Spirit of God to pray through us to the Father, then the following words have full meaning for us, where the world simply stands back with complete ambivelance:

Whereas I believe that 'God doesn't need to pray to God' through me. But I do still believe that it is an 'emPOWERed' spirit in me from which that PHONE does come forth. I got this PHONE input from you, and it's good. Fits my theology perfectly Biblicist...I truly thank you for it.

“The Pentecost narrative of Acts 2 is an eschatological event, in which the coming of the resurrection Spirit

As for this "resurrection Spirit" comment of the Prof. Althouse I can only say this from scripture; Translators don't even know whether or not to Cap s-S concerning that resurrection Sspirit comment.

KJV 1PE 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

NAS 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

NIV 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

RSV 1PE 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;

speaking in tongues is a cry for liberation, a "cry of abandonment;' which symbolizes the liberating force of the Spirit in breaking down racial, gender and class barriers. Glossolalia embodies an equalizing impulse in levelling all languages and human strivings, pointing to the inauguration of divine justice and mercy in its "groaning" for the suffering of creation yearning for liberation”.
Prof. Peter Althouse

I'm not sure why "the Spirit" has to "cry for liberation or abandonment", when 'as God' the power for us to do so comes from Him to begin with. And, as you've mentioned before (so I know you know), Glossolalia did not break down "racial barriers" at all with the AZUSA Street Revival.

Biblicist, Us not agreeing here doesn't threaten my belief that we're both still walking in a POWER they don't have, and to disagree here shows no weakness or fear on our part to willingly continue to debate as to more fully understand that which we have and they don't.​

​

 

[Righttruth]

At least you recognise that when people such as yourself 'pray' that they do so in their own strength where the Spirit of God has no part in it. For those of us who both know the Lord and where his Spirit dwells within us, when we obey the Scriptures by allowing the Spirit of God to pray through us to the Father, then the following words have full meaning for us, where the world simply stands back with complete ambivelance:

The moment we are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, we have the Spirit residing in us. He will help as long as you yield to him in all our endeavor. Of course, He will not pray for you! Do you expect God to eat for you also?

“The Pentecost narrative of Acts 2 is an eschatological event, in which the coming of the resurrection Spirit renews the covenantal community in anticipation of the parousia, and tongues is a theophanic sign of divine self-disclosure like that of the burning bush in the calling of Moses and the giving of the Law. As an eschatological foretaste, speaking in tongues is a cry for liberation, a "cry of abandonment;' which symbolizes the liberating force of the Spirit in breaking down racial, gender and class barriers. Glossolalia embodies an equalizing impulse in levelling all languages and human strivings, pointing to the inauguration of divine justice and mercy in its "groaning" for the suffering of creation yearning for liberation”.

At the outset, Acts don't relate to speaking in an unknown tongue! There can be no unknown tongue to the Holy Spirit.

​

 

[Righttruth]

To all seekers who might be here. Study hard to come to a knowledge of the truth. For translators not having tongues from the baptism of power from the Holy Spirit, could never, in humbleness, admit their lack or deficiency. They therefore had to mistranslate to conceal Fundaspiritualism from Fundamentalism. So it is up to you to have "love for the truth".

There is no need to cook up complex concepts to feed the confused minds! All important facts concerning salvation and our obedience to God are plainly revealed in the Gospel.

LUK 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power/dunnamis from on high.

Nobody receives 'The Holy Spirit' from on high, they receive "POWER" from the Holy Spirit.

From where do you think the Holy Spirit is going to come? From hell down below?

ACT 1:8 But ye shall receive power/dunnamis, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

And the POWER the Father promises is what the disciples received on the day of Pentecost.

Right.

As the recent posts confirm, to those of us who do speak in tongues "which no MAN understands", we can easily see that 'deception' still goes on today. Since it is not the Holy Spirit who doesn't understand tongues, as as was recently posted. But discern for yourselves whether this untruth which was laid at our feet does not truly come as an attempted deceptive slight from their hand.

The Holy Spirit doesn't prompt unknown tongue. There is nothing unknown to Him!

Then have compassion for them because they simply don't understand the POWER of the Holy Spirit behind the gift of a language they call gibberish. But scripture warns of those who are "unlearned" and "ignorant" concerning this supernatural power so readers must beware as to who truly speaks 'the truth'.

Those who attribute gibberish to the Holy Spirit are grieving the Spirit!

1CO 14:11 but if I do not know the meaning/dunnamis/POWER of the language/phone/VOICE, I shall be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.

Indeed most here do not experientially know "the POWER" from The Holy Spirit which is behind the "VOICE" which pours forth from our spirit. A voice which "no man understands".

Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are interested in associating with unknown tongues!

Even most of those 'with tongues' do not understand what I believe I've presented here. Sorry B.

Naturally, because they believe in a god of confusion!

 

[Righttruth]

As for this "resurrection Spirit" comment of the Prof. Althouse I can only say this from scripture; Translators don't even know whether or not to Cap s-S concerning that resurrection Sspirit comment.

KJV 1PE 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

NAS 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

NIV 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

RSV 1PE 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;

So when in doubt, avoid convenient and 'ear tickling' concepts!

I'm not sure why "the Spirit" has to "cry for liberation or abandonment", when 'as God' the power for us to do so comes from Him to begin with. And, as you've mentioned before (so I know you know), Glossolalia did not break down "racial barriers" at all with the AZUSA Street Revival.

Yes, the black pastor who was instrumental in this relapse of speaking in unknown tongue died heart broken because it did not overcome racial barriers!
​

​

 

[Biblicist]

Whereas I believe that 'God doesn't need to pray to God' through me. But I do still believe that it is an 'emPOWERed' spirit in me from which that PHONE does come forth. I got this PHONE input from you, and it's good. Fits my theology perfectly Biblicist...I truly thank you for it.

Glad to be of service. Even though any newbie should be able to understand the general thrust of Paul’s teachings in 1Cor 12, 13 & 14, I am still convinced that unless these chapters are read through an Interlinear Bible then the traditional way in which some words have been loosely translated can make Paul’s highly Trinitarian passages a bit hard to follow. When it comes to how he describes tongues in 14:9-11 most of the translations tend to add in a lot of unnecessary confusion where I struggle to understand why they did not translate phone as sound and not language. Thankfully the NRSV has followed the Greek correctly:

(1Co 14:9-11 NRS) So with yourselves; if in a tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different kinds of sounds in the world, and nothing is without sound. If then I do not know the meaning of a sound, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.​

As Paul does not refer to tongues (glossa) as languages, when we understand that Paul employs 'sound' and not 'languages' in verses 9-11, this better helps to amplify his thoughts superbly.

As for this "resurrection Spirit" comment of the Prof. Althouse I can only say this from scripture; Translators don't even know whether or not to Cap s-S concerning that resurrection Sspirit comment.

KJV 1PE 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

NAS 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

NIV 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

RSV 1PE 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;

This is a tough passage where it is hard to know if Peter was referring to the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit or to the sentient aspects of Jesus. Even though I would be inclined to say it was the Holy Spirit that Peter was referring to, but as Peter seems to be a bit vague then I will have to allow for other opinions.

But thankfully this is only one of a few verses that remain thoroughly ambigous.

“…speaking in tongues is a cry for liberation, a "cry of abandonment;' which symbolizes the liberating force of the Spirit in breaking down racial, gender and class barriers. Glossolalia embodies an equalizing impulse in levelling all languages and human strivings, pointing to the inauguration of divine justice and mercy in its "groaning" for the suffering of creation yearning for liberation”.​

​

I'm not sure why "the Spirit" has to "cry for liberation or abandonment",when 'as God' the power for us to do so comes from Him to begin with. And, as you've mentioned before (so I know you know), Glossolalia did not break down "racial barriers" at all with the AZUSA Street Revival.

Dr. Althouse’s remarks are not so much relating to each and every instance of how we pray in the Spirit, but with the New Covenant provision where we have each received of the Eschatological Spirit; as we long for the full return of the Lord in his Kingdom, we now groan in anticipation where the Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf until the Lord’s Kingdom is fully realised here on earth.

With his reference to race and gender, this certainly occurred on the Day of Pentecost and as Christians of all races are still able to pray in the Spirit in the same manner, then it means that someone in the deepest parts of Africa has been enabled through the agency of the Holy Spirit to pray just as effectively as a man or woman in one of our more affluent nations.
As for the Azusa Street revival, this is where I would say that tongues played a major role with temporarily removing racial inequality as both black, Hispanic and white where empowered as one (equally) through the Holy Spirit. With regard to gender, even though there is certainly a difference between male and female within the Scriptures, the ability of both male and female to pray in the Spirit and where both male and female can interpret certainly allowed the genders to become one – at least in regard to praying in the Spirit.

In Frank D. Macchia's book Justified in the Spirit (2010), Macchia addresses the role of the Holy Spirit in Salvation over seven pages. In the spoiler below I've included two pages (JPG) which shows the importance of the Holy Spirit within the life of the Believer which is particularly relevant when we connect in our ability to pray in the Spirit.

Due to copyright restrictions I've only included two pages of non-OCR text where one section has been blurred - but it does make for some really good reading.

Spoiler: Macchia -Spirit Baptism

Biblicist, Us not agreeing here doesn't threaten my belief that we're both still walking in a POWER they don't have, and to disagree here shows no weakness or fear on our part to willingly continue to debate as to more fully understand that which we have and they don't.

I fully agree.

​

 

[Hillsage]

Even though any newbie should be able to understand the general thrust of Paul’s teachings in 1Cor 12, 13 & 14,

Wow, seriously? The mature but carnally minded AND spiritually minded oldies, have argued these chapters for a over century IMO.

I am still convinced that unless these chapters are read through an Interlinear Bible

I have 4 of them (smart books ), and agree. Bought 3 before computers came on the scene. Took a couple of years of reading the 'literal' and not the 'modern version' on the side of the page to gain an understanding of the Greek 'flow'. Though I'm still a Greek illiterate, mind you. Thank God for the Sspirit of truth. Both the Holy 'one from above' which I'm "clothed with" as well as the holy 'one inside', "this earthly tent" which I AM, and which is 'made in God's image'. Can't blame me for trying now, can you?

As Paul does not refer to tongues (glossa) as languages, when we understand that Paul employs 'sound' and not 'languages' in verses 9-11, this better helps to amplify his thoughts superbly.

And that's the powerful point I feel like I've really gleaned from your first posting of the word 'phone' and your understanding on it. Well done....for me anyway.

This is a tough passage where it is hard to know if Peter was referring to the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit or to the sentient aspects of Jesus. Even though I would be inclined to say it was the Holy Spirit that Peter was referring to, but as Peter seems to be a bit vague then I will have to allow for other opinions.

True sign of maturity IMO. Only those immature in their fellowship with Christ seem to fight tooth and nail to defend their doctrinal box.

Dr. Althouse’s remarks are not so much relating to each and every instance of how we pray in the Spirit, but with the New Covenant provision where we have each received of the Eschatological Spirit; as we long for the full return of the Lord in his Kingdom, we now groan in anticipation where the Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf until the Lord’s Kingdom is fully realised here on earth.

Hmmm, never going to ask why I don't believe The Holy Spirit dwells in any of us....scripturally?

With his reference to race and gender, this certainly occurred on the Day of Pentecost and as Christians of all races are still able to pray in the Spirit in the same manner, then it means that someone in the deepest parts of Africa has been enabled through the agency of the Holy Spirit to pray just as effectively as a man or woman in one of our more affluent nations.

I know what you mean, I've never been able to tell the difference between a Spirit baptized Methodist tongue from a Spirit baptized Catholic tongue when they were praying with the phone of 'their spirit'.

In Frank D. Macchia's book Justified in the Spirit (2010), Macchia addresses the role of the Holy Spirit in Salvation over seven pages. In the spoiler below I've included two pages (JPG) which shows the importance of the Holy Spirit within the life of the Believer which is particularly relevant when we connect in our ability to pray in the Spirit.

Whereas YLT says;

1 Timothy 3:16 and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety - God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!

So, while 'many' translations agree s is S, Young's doesn't...and neither do I.

 

[Imagican]

This is the typical mistake people do. It is 'pray in the spirit', not in the Spirit as you have quoted.

The crux of problem lies in reading Holy Spirit when He is not there by conveniently converting lower case letter to upper case claiming the work of the Holy Ghost. Unknown tongue speaking is that of the emotional person's spirit, not that of the Holy Spirit!

Yet there is no such offering in the Bible. Unknown Tongues are a GIFT of The Spirit, (capital S). Our spirit is incapable of speaking or understanding Unknown Tongues that exist in the Bible. As a matter of FACT, the Charismatic Churches that supposedly speak in 'unknown tongues', ALL insist that such behavior is a SIGN that one is Spirit FILLED. Insist that it IS a 'sign' of the presence of the Holy Ghost.

There is NOTHING that a person can DO of their OWN accord that is HOLY. The only means of doing ANYTHING Holy is THROUGH The Spirit.

Paul plainly points out that we are NOT to seek personal edification. That ALL we DO is to be DONE with the BODY as the focus. Over and over he exemplifies the USELESSNESS of doing that which brings ONLY self edification and INSISTS that such 'childish ways' be 'put away'.

So you can SAY that a person can speak unknown tongues, (a gift of The Spirit), through their own spirit without intercession of the Holy Spirit, but that is NOT what we are offered in the Bible. Just a MAN MADE means of trying to justify going AGAINST the instructions Paul offered. ALL things are to be done DECENTLY and IN ORDER. That means AS instructed.

And the clincher is Paul's offering that he had rather speak five words of understanding than 10000 words in an unknown tongue. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understanding the MEANING behind his words. He is offering that unknown tongues is USELESS without MEANING. 1/200th the significance of speaking that which is understood. And then he says to covet the most IMPORTANT gifts. Obviously pointing out that something 1/200th the significance of another is of LEAST important compared to the MOST important.

So, instead of following the teachings of men in THEIR churches, wouldn't it be more proper to follow the teachings of Paul? For it is 'man made Churches' that teach that gibberish is tongues. If you read the entire Bible, every usage of the term 'tongues' is in reference to LANGUAGES. Men came along later and tried to indicate that speaking gibberish is some sort of 'language'. But it is obvious that it is NOT since neither SPEAKER or HEARER understand it.

I read your words. I understand EXACTLY what they were intended to relay. But the TRUTH is, they are just YOUR words that have absolutely NO Biblical reference whatsoever. So what do you think I place my faith in. Your words offered in an attempt at justification? Or the words of the Bible that refute any such offering?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Let us be REALISTIC. The FIRST mention of tongues is in the last verses of Mark. You know, 'these signs shall follow......................." And note how it states: "new tongues". This directly reflects the later USAGE of tongues as offered in the Bible.

For upon Pentecost when those who had just been 'born in Spirit' went out into the streets and spoke in OTHER languages, these would indeed, but NEW TONGUES to those speaking. Tongues, (languages), that they had NEVER learned, but were capable of speaking through the POWER, (gift), of the Holy Spirit.

So we have clear instruction of WHAT tongues ARE.

Now, explain this: Why are they SO IMPORTANT to those that profess that gibberish is tongues, when Paul plainly points out that something that is NOT understood is 1/200th the importance as that which IS understood. And then insists that one covet the BEST gifts, obviously pointing out that 'tongues' is one of the LEAST important gifts. WHY then do those that speak in gibberish INSIST upon how IMPORTANT speaking in gibberish IS, when Paul points out clearly that it isn't. The ONLY support of 'tongues' that Paul offers is to 'forbid NOT to speak in tongues'. And then adds, BUT RATHER, (what is of way more importance), seek to offer that which IS understood.

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

And he couldn't say that 'tongues' didn't exist. For they most certainly did. It was the gift of the Holy Spirit that allowed the speaker to communicate with those of other languages: Tongues are for a sign, NOT to them that BELIEVE, but to them that BELIEVE NOT.

But what he DID was point out that what the Corinthians SHOULD be focusing on was LOVE instead of 'gifts' to begin with. And IF one were focusing on 'gifts', (coveting to possess), they were to covet gifts of UNDERSTANDING, not practicing something WITHOUT any understanding. That is WHY he laid out the RULES of 'true tongues'. One, two, no more than THREE in the gathering, and by COURSE, (in order), and there MUST BE an interpreter, and women are to remain SILENT in the 'church'.

Yet the gibberish claimed to be tongues in the Charismatic Churches today, follow NONE of these rules. That just goes to SHOW that they are NOT the TRUE tongues referred to in the Bible. For the gift of tongues could ONLY be practiced AS THE SPIRIT GIVES UTTERANCE. And The Spirit CANNOT go against the commandments of God, which is what Paul INSISTED his rules were: the commandments of God.

So one can 'talk around in circles' and PRETEND whatever they choose, but we are to serve in Spirit and TRUTH, not ourselves, but God through His Son AS instructed. The gibberish that some call 'unknown tongues' are NOT the 'Spiritual gift' offered in the Bible for they DO NOT conform to the COMMANDMENTS of God as outlined by Paul.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

You know guys and gals, Paul didn't have to write to the Corinthians at ALL. He chose to because of the love he shared with them in his heart. He wrote to them because he had gotten a bad report of the 'state' of the Church in Corinth and hoped to guide them back to the proper path.
He had NOTHING else to gain.

I have absolutely NOTHING to gain from offering understanding of Paul's words EXCEPT that it may help others to follow the proper path. And it is because I CARE enough to do so. No other possible gain.

And I cannot BELIEVE that if the gibberish spoken in today's Charismatic Churches were TRUE 'tongues', God would ALLOW me to speak in the manner that I do. Surely He would CORRECT me. Surely He would NOT allow me to attempt to influence others that it is NOT 'the gift of the Holy Spirit' spoken of in the Bible.

While YOU can question my faith, I KNOW what my faith is. I openly confess my belief in Father and Son and the Holy Spirit.

So your only alternative would be to accuse me of trying to LIE or that I'm being influenced by something EVIL. OR, my words are the TRUTH. I can't think of any other choice.

Those that translated the KJV of the Bible DID NOT 'speak in tongues'. From my studies, I have found that for about 1800 years, NO ONE spoke in tongues. Not the GIBBERISH that the Charismatic Churches insist are 'tongues'. It only began a little over 100 years ago.

So if you believe that speaking in gibberish is 'tongues', then you are forced to believe that it CEASED for about 1800 years and then started back. That's ludicrous to me. Especially when we consider that it offers NO edification of the Body.

And let me ask this of those that state that the gibberish they claim is 'tongues of the Bible' and that it is of 'their OWN 'spirit' instead of uttered AS THE Spirit gives utterance. If this is what you claim, it is NOT a 'gift of the Holy Spirit', then are you OPENLY admitting that it is nothing other than LEARNED behavior? That what you do is nothing other than mimicking what you have witnessed OTHER DOING?

For if it is NOT a 'gift of the Spirit', then in truth, there is NOTHING HOLY about it. It is nothing other than gibberish that is not understood by the speaker nor the hearer. It is USELESS if it brings no edification and is nothing other than an attempt to SEEM holier than others. An ACT designed for personal edification: (LOOK AT ME MA, NO HANDS).

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Paul plainly offers to THOSE in Corinth, "Where there are tongues, they shall CEASE. You don't REALLY believe he meant sometime thousands of years later????? He NEVER offered this to any other 'church' or part of the Body. WHY? Because the Corinthians were STRUGGLING with this issue like NO OTHER "church" at the time.

Well, I'm here to reDIRECT inspection of the issue. Pointing BACK to Paul's words and what they MEANT. They were NOT an attempt to influence those in Corinth to 'speak in tongues', but JUST the opposite. He would NEVER had to offer the RULES of tongues if those to whom he wrote WEREN'T doing something WRONG or inappropriate. He offered the rules BECAUSE there was a problem with the "Church" at Corinth.
And he STATED that women are to remain SILENT in the 'church' right in the middle or at the PEAK of his discussion about "TONGUES". This is a PURE indication that a woman CANNOT speak in the 'tongues' of the Bible IN THE "CHURCH", (the gathering). So ANY 'church' that has women speaking in tongues IN THE GATHERING is encouraging behavior utterly contrary to the words of Paul so far as his instruction concerning tongues. Any 'church' that allows more than ONE person at a TIME 'speak in tongues' in the 'Church' is behaving in a manner utterly CONTRARY to the words of Paul offered as instruction. And any 'church' that allows ANYONE to 'speak in tongues' WITHOUT an interpreter present is acting in a manner utterly contrary to the words Paul offered as instruction.
Now, does YOUR 'church' encourage or ALLOW behavior CONTRARY to the instruction offered by Paul? If so, what is the influence that allows one to speak in tongues CONTRARY to the instructions offered by Paul? Certainly you won't claim that it is the Holy Spirit???? For Paul plainly STATES that anyone that is "Spiritual" in the LEAST will openly agree that the instructions he offered were the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. Not HIS OPINION, but instructions directly inspired by the Holy Spirit: GOD. And the Holy Spirit cannot DO that which is contrary to ITSELF. Impossible.
So, if the influence to do that contrary to the truth is NOT of the 'Holy Spirit', what 'spirit' IS the influence.
I already pointed out over and over that Voodoo and the Charismatic Churches behavior is very close in resemblance. The BIGGEST difference is admission. Those practicing Voodoo openly ADMIT that their behavior is inspired by the possession of EVIL spirits. While the Charismatics insist that their behavior is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Yet their behavior is in utter contradiction to Paul's instruction that Paul STATES are the commandments of GOD.
So who am I to believe? I believe what those that practice Voodoo state. But since the acts of those in the Charismatic Churches are an obvious contradiction to the words of Paul, I am forced to accept Paul's words over those of the Charismatic Churches.
The conclusion is that those of the Charismatic movement are following some other 'spirit' than the Holy Spirit. While they CLAIM the opposite, as the saying goes, " the PROOF is in the PUDDING". I see NO advantage or benefit to DOING that which is contrary to the TRUTH. I see NO advantage in witnessing the LIVES of those that practice such behavior. I see NOTHING additional added except SELF EDIFICATION. But what I DO see is that I experience the SAME sensation, both physical and spiritual, when I witness those 'speaking in tongues' in the 'churches' as I do when witnessing a Voodoo ritual or celebration.
You can insist that what you WANT to believe is more important than the truth as much as you please, but you can't alter the words of Paul to anyone but YOURSELVES. All others plainly recognize the TRUTH that Paul offered. And it's not about a Biblical issue that the two sides disagree, it's a PERSONAL thing. For those that insist upon ignoring the Bible turn the issue into a PERSONAL issue every time it is confronted. WE are MORE Holy than those that DO NOT exhibit the gift of tongues. When in FACT, Paul wrote to the Corinthians about this EXACT 'childish' issue. Begging the to PUT AWAY such childish behavior.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Biblicist]

Wow, seriously? The mature but carnally minded AND spiritually minded oldies, have argued these chapters for a over century IMO.

That's a fair point. With my reference to the "general thrust" of First Corinthians, I was making reference to little more than its rudimentary message.

When I first came to the Lord within the cessationist environment that I found myself in, after maybe 12 months I started to notice that what I was seeing around me (and in me) was in contrast to what was happening in the early church. When it came to tongues, I knew or maybe guessed that they were for today, though I had absolutely no real idea as to what they were. It was possibly only when I came across a church member who was deriding a fellow members wife who attended the nearby AoG church and not our own where she was one of those "tongues speakers" that got me thinking. I wondered why they were criticing something that was in the Bible so months later when I was invited to an FGBMFI meeting I was primed and ready to go.

So I figure that as a 19 year old who knew next to nothing, which was prior to the information age where "all things can be easily accessed and understood"; then if I could grasp a few of the basics, then in my view there is really no reason for any other quasi-cessationist not to be able to figure things out as well.

 

[Righttruth]

Which tongue is unknown to the Holy Spirit to prompt a person to talk non-intelligently?