TE Observations

[SBG]

SBC,



Would you like to go back and count all the times in the past month that a YEC has claimed that TEs and OECs are unbelievers? Yet you just told one of them that he did it with the best of motives? Well why can't you give me the same benefit of the doubt?

I asked you if you could help me understand what you meant by what you said. To me, what you said looked like you were claiming all YECs are liars and Vossler is an atheist trying to ruin the Gospel. Instead of saying this is what you meant, I wanted to know your side.

Vossler explained in the OP that what he said was his observations. He asked for corrections if they were wrong.

I didn't say Vossler had the best motives, rather I said that he meant well even if he didn't use the best words that would be acceptable to everyone. Simply put, I gave him the benefit of the doubt just as I did you by asking you to help me understand why it looked as if you made direct accusations instead of asking if they were correct.

I gave a link with two eaxmples of common YEC lies.

Yes, I saw that. Your original statement looks like you are accusing all YECs as liars. Was that your intent?

Ken Ham even gave one of Hugh Ross' counter-examples for one which Ham dismissed without addressing Ross' argument. If you read Ross' argument and Ham's dismissal, you'd see that they both agree on the facts. Hosea 6:2, gives an example of number say that does not mean one 24-hour day. Yet even after agreeing to that, Ham still makes the false claim.

Ross gave an example of the other. Ham ignores Ross' example and pretends it doesn't exist. I gave Ross' example to Vosseler plus another example. Did Vosseler even have the integrity to look them up? No. Instead, he claimed it didn't matter.

It doesn't matter that Vosseler believes two lies and uses those (among other things) to accuse us of unbelief. What if I showed Vosseler two more lies? It still wouldn't matter. What if I showed Vosseler two more lies after that? It still wouldn't matter. Vosseler doesn't care that he believes a lie. But he's quite willing to condemn us for not believing that same lie.

Don't you see a problem here?

I believe Vossler doesn't believe they are lies. Are you going to fault him for having different beliefs than you?

I didn't think Vossler was condemning anyone here. He did ask for corrections to the statements of observations that he made. I think that shows an honest attempt to understand.

Honestly, your statement that Vossler is in league with atheists to discredit the Gospel was a harsh accusation. You didn't ask if he was, you told him he was. You showed no mercy, but you expect mercy to be shown to you in these conversations. That is the one-way street I have been talking about and why this forum is so heated with debates, arguments, accusations, and hatred.

We aren't simply going back and forth debating, we are accusing with vile and hatred filled statements. And after we respond in such a way, we expect people not to respond to us as we responded to them.

If you didn't mean what you said, that YECs are all liars and that Vossler teams up with atheist to discredit the Gospel, then my apologies. But, if you did, then you cannot ever be upset if someone responds to you in the same manner. If you aren't willing to give mercy or grace or even forgiveness, then you cannot expect it from anyone else towards you.

I dunno, maybe this is the wrong place for me to be discussing how we ought to follow Jesus Christ's example and love one another, showing grace, mercy and forgiveness. We seem to have too many excuses not to.

 

[Mathematician]

SBG,

Yes, I saw that. Your original statement looks like you are accusing all YECs as liars. Was that your intent?

No, I tried to make it clear. The big name YEC leaders in the big name YEC ministries are liars. I gave an example. Every other YEC who repeats those lies has allowed himself to be duped by these people.

I believe Vossler doesn't believe they are lies. Are you going to fault him for having different beliefs than you?

I believe Vossler doesn't believe they are lies either. That doesn't change the fact that they are lies and YECs spread them. He's been told they are lies but he won't go and check them out. That I'll fault him for.

I didn't think Vossler was condemning anyone here. He did ask for corrections to the statements of observations that he made. I think that shows an honest attempt to understand.

Honestly, your statement that Vossler is in league with atheists to discredit the Gospel was a harsh accusation. You didn't ask if he was, you told him he was. You showed no mercy, but you expect mercy to be shown to you in these conversations. That is the one-way street I have been talking about and why this forum is so heated with debates, arguments, accusations, and hatred.

No, YECs tell lies about the Gospel. Atheists hear those lies and assume those YECs are telling the truth about the Gospel. Those lies put up a fence cutting off the gospel. That is what I meant by YECs teaming with atheists, and it is still true.

Mercy is not the issue here. I want YECs to quit spreading Ken Ham, Henry Morris, and Kent Hovind's lies. I want YECs to test what these guys say. I mean really test it. None of you have. And it doesn't matter whether I say it nicely or harshly, none of you will.

We aren't simply going back and forth debating, we are accusing with vile and hatred filled statements. And after we respond in such a way, we expect people not to respond to us as we responded to them

If you didn't mean what you said, that YECs are all liars and that Vossler teams up with atheist to discredit the Gospel, then my apologies. But, if you did, then you cannot ever be upset if someone responds to you in the same manner. If you aren't willing to give mercy or grace or even forgiveness, then you cannot expect it from anyone else towards you.

I knocked on your door and quietly said, "your house is on fire." You've done nothing. I've pounded on the door, and yelled. You've still done nothing. I broke your door down, went into your living room, and I'm screaming, "Your house is on fire!" And you're asking me, "Why are you so loud?" I'm pleading with you, "Get out of the house before it burns down!"

Don't you care that YEC leaders spread things they know are lies? Don't you care that YECs repeat those things, trusting these liars? Don't you care that it gives people an excuse to reject the Gospel? Don't you care?

Don't you care enough to look up these verses yourself and test what they say?

 

[mark kennedy]

MOD HAT ON​

This kind of a statement is flaming unless supported by empirical evidence:

I want YECs to quit spreading Ken Ham, Henry Morris, and Kent Hovind's lies.

There is a reason that the number one rule on here is no flaming, it's because its the biggest problem. This is a MOD HAT warning but if I see it again the member will be warned personally. If you see a violation of this rule please feel free to report it in the future.

:rules:Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
1.1 You may discuss another individual's beliefs or religious organization but you will not harass, insult, belittle, threaten, defame or flame the individual (member or non-member) as this is considered personal (ad hominem) attacks in posts, PMs and any other communication within the site. This includes, but is not limited to:
a. Directly calling another member “cultist”, “heretic” or “bigot” as these are personal attacks and are not conducive to civil discussion.
b. Calling famous individuals derogatory names (unless it is a well-known nickname) as this may be considered defamation.
1.2 You will not directly call another member or his or her religious organization a “cult”, “heretic”, “demonic” or “satanic” but you may discuss doctrines, teachings, practices or writings of other religious organizations as long as empirical evidence is provided.
1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual’s belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say “The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence”.

Feel free to PM me with any questions or concerns.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[SBG]

SBG,



No, I tried to make it clear. The big name YEC leaders in the big name YEC ministries are liars. I gave an example. Every other YEC who repeats those lies has allowed himself to be duped by these people.

I still don't understand how accusing them here helps better anything. In my opinion, if I were to lay charges against someone, I would charge them to their face or in a letter addressed to them. I don't see why calling them names behind their backs is a good thing or how it shows a Christian attitude.

I believe Vossler doesn't believe they are lies either. That doesn't change the fact that they are lies and YECs spread them. He's been told they are lies but he won't go and check them out. That I'll fault him for.

How do you know he hasn't checked them out sometime in his life? Have you been watching everything Vossler does to know this?

No, YECs tell lies about the Gospel. Atheists hear those lies and assume those YECs are telling the truth about the Gospel. Those lies put up a fence cutting off the gospel. That is what I meant by YECs teaming with atheists, and it is still true.

I have to ask, since I am a YEC, what lies have I told about the Gospel message? Your statement above is directed at YECs, not a particular group, but YECs in general. So, can you tell me what lies I have stated about the Gospel?

Mercy is not the issue here. I want YECs to quit spreading Ken Ham, Henry Morris, and Kent Hovind's lies. I want YECs to test what these guys say. I mean really test it. None of you have. And it doesn't matter whether I say it nicely or harshly, none of you will.

Mercy is always an issue and maybe that is where you might have gone wrong here. If you don't like certain people, enough to call them names behind their back, that is your business. Is it too much to offer them mercy cease the name calling and just disagree with them? Is it too much to ask that instead of attacking YECs, you just disagree with us?

Honestly, I don't know how you can make the comment that no YEC here has ever tested what these people say. You must have superior knowledge to know everything we have ever done to make such a comment.

I knocked on your door and quietly said, "your house is on fire." You've done nothing. I've pounded on the door, and yelled. You've still done nothing. I broke your door down, went into your living room, and I'm screaming, "Your house is on fire!" And you're asking me, "Why are you so loud?" I'm pleading with you, "Get out of the house before it burns down!"

Don't you care that YEC leaders spread things they know are lies? Don't you care that YECs repeat those things, trusting these liars? Don't you care that it gives people an excuse to reject the Gospel? Don't you care?

Don't you care enough to look up these verses yourself and test what they say?

Let me ask, how do you know I haven't looked up these verses as you assume I haven't?

You know, I know how you feel. I keep asking if we who call ourselves Christians ought to follow The Christ and do what He commanded us to do: love each other and show grace, show mercy and forgive each other. Maybe that is just too much to hope for from all Christians. Or, maybe it is just me and I am misguided in my hope.

 

[shernren]

Top debating skill needed here: the skill of dividing opinions from opinionated people. We need to be able to say "such-and-such is a lie", without saying that "so-and-so said such-and-such and is therefore a liar". The second may be true, but even if it is, it is not our call to say it but God's call. With this kind of style it should be possible to disprove arguments without attacking people. We should argue over thought systems, not character judgments.

 

[mark kennedy]

Here's the uses of the expression I could find:

(Exodus 18:13) "And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening. "​

It means all day long.

(Lev. 27:21) "In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel. "​

It means all night long.

(Lev. 24:3)"Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the LORD continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations."​

Again, it means all night long.

(Dan. 8:14) "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. "​

This is predictive prophecy that added up the literal days until the Sanctuary was dedicated.

(Lev. 6:20)"This is the offering of Aaron and of his sons, which they shall offer unto the LORD in the day when he is anointed; the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a meat offering perpetual, half of it in the morning, and half thereof at night."​

This means on the precribed literal day you offer half in the morning and half in the evening.

(Numbers 9:15) "And on the day that the tabernacle was reared up the cloud covered the tabernacle, namely, the tent of the testimony: and at even there was upon the tabernacle as it were the appearance of fire, until the morning."​

From Vines Expositors Dictionary:

The first biblical occurence of yom is found in Gen. 1:5: "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day:. The second use introduces one of the most debated occurences of the word, which is the duration of the days of creation. Perhaps the most frequently heard explanations are that these 'days' are 24 hours long, indefinitely long (i.e. eras of time), or logical rather than temporal categories (i.e.they depict theologiical categories rather than periods of time).​

Now one could certainly choose to interprute this differently then Ken Ham, Henry Morris or vossler but a difference of opinion does not make them liars. Now the texts in question have been posted for any and all to read. If there is any reason to believe that Answers in Genesis is being willfully deceptive based on the use of the expression 'evening and morning' together in the OT, lets see it. These verses using this phrase are obviously refering to literal as opposed to figurative days.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[SBG]

Top debating skill needed here: the skill of dividing opinions from opinionated people. We need to be able to say "such-and-such is a lie", without saying that "so-and-so said such-and-such and is therefore a liar". The second may be true, but even if it is, it is not our call to say it but God's call. With this kind of style it should be possible to disprove arguments without attacking people. We should argue over thought systems, not character judgments.

I agree with you, but think even saying it is a lie is going to cause problems. You or I, on a wrong day, could perceive this to be calling us a liar, even when the specific claim wasn't made.

I believe others have said this before I have, but stating something like 'I believe what you are stating is in correct and here is why....'

What we are debating about is opinions and beliefs. It may be scientifically true, but some may not agree with it being scientifically true, which makes this a belief for them. Being sensitive to others beliefs is necessary, but being sensitive doesn't mean you cannot express your beliefs.

I personally appreciate your efforts Shernren to be civil and I do see you trying hard to be considerate to those who believe differently than you. God will honor that!

 

[notto]

This kind of a statement is flaming unless supported by empirical evidence:

1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual’s belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say “The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence”.

After a quick re-read of the OP, I must have missed the empirical evidence that TEs will yoke themselves with unbelievers in order to discredit a fellow believer.

 

[mark kennedy]

What the OP said in context was a matter of opinion and never called anyone a liar.

When the Bible says that that God created in the universe, earth and all that is in it in 6 days, TEs view this as non-literal, meaning it was either allegorical or mythological. YECs believe the Bible, more specifically Genesis 1, simply states exactly what occurred.

This statement is consistant with YEC theology and runs contrary to TE. He makes a simple statement of fact I have found to be true by personal experience.

Science plays a significant role as to how a TE views and/or interprets the Bible. Science plays no role, or at most, a very small role, on how a YEC views and/or interprets the Bible.

Again, this statement is perfectly consistant with YEC and TE theology. YECs do not use carbon dating, phylogetic trees, empirical research, astobiology or geology to determine their convictions regarding origins.

Some other interesting observations:

Not a single TE statement or view listed above can be supported by the Bible.

Simply a matter of opinion and nothing close to an ad hominem attack.

Most TEs views are supported by the secular world.

It is difficult to see a substantial differnece between the views of TE and secular scientists on the subject of origins. I'm not saying there isn't one but he is expressing his opinion, not directing it at anyone in particular.

TEs will yoke themselves with unbelievers in order to discredit a fellow believer.

I have debated in CE for two years, I have never seen an exception to this simple statement.

TEs believe the ACLU to be a good organization.

This one is marginal but not really a flame. I have no idea what TEs believe about the ACLU but up until the early sixties they did brilliant work on civil rights issues that I deeply respect. Here he seems misinformed but expressing an opinion is not flaming. Now if he called the ACLU a bunch of liars I would expect it to be accompanied by empirical support. I happen to believe that the ACLU is a good organization that is misguided on the abortion and first amendment issues they champion. I am familar with the decisions they influenced the Supreme Court to make and respectfully descent from some and strongly oppose on others.

He expressed his opinion and general impression of TE, nothing more. That is not the same thing as calling them a bunch of liars.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Numenor]

It is difficult to see a substantial differnece between the views of TE and secular scientists on the subject of origins. I'm not saying there isn't one but he is expressing his opinion, not directing it at anyone in particular.

Here was me thinking belief in God was a substantial difference.

TEs will yoke themselves with unbelievers in order to discredit a fellow believer.

YECs will yoke themselves with others who are charlatans and liars in order to discredit fellow believers (Kent Hovind has repeatedly used arguments he has been shown to be false). Are we any further forward in the debate? No.

 

[notto]

YECs will yoke themselves with charlatans and liars in order to discredit fellow believers.

Agreed. I have never seen an acception to this as long as I have been here.

This can be objectively evidenced by their defense of those in the Dover trial that lied on the stand. The evidence is in the court transcripts and the judges decision.

They also yoke themselves with others who yoke themselves with nonbelievers (such as those who push for ID but accept an old earth and common descent because they trust the science) to discredit fellow believers.

I have never seen an acception to this as long as I have been here.

Just expressing my opinion and general impression of TE, nothing more.

 

[The Lady Kate]

This one is marginal but not really a flame. I have no idea what TEs believe about the ACLU but up until the early sixties they did brilliant work on civil rights issues that I deeply respect. Here he seems misinformed but expressing an opinion is not flaming. Now if he called the ACLU a bunch of liars I would expect it to be accompanied by empirical support. I happen to believe that the ACLU is a good organization that is misguided on the abortion and first amendment issues they champion. I am familar with the decisions they influenced the Supreme Court to make and respectfully descent from some and strongly oppose on others.

Fair enough... but I still would very much like to know how the ACLU is relevent to this discussion.

 

[vossler]

Fair enough... but I still would very much like to know how the ACLU is relevent to this discussion.

As the OP, I don't really know if it is relevant, it just happened to be another difference between TEs and YECs that struck me as interesting. I guess it all come back to our worldview and how it shapes everything we believe.

 

[The Lady Kate]

As the OP, I don't really know if it is relevant, it just happened to be another difference between TEs and YECs that struck me as interesting. I guess it all come back to our worldview and how it shapes everything we believe.

Well then, this should probably be a topic for another thread, but I do support most of what the ACLU does... even though they do occasionally take some goofy stands, their intentions are good.

I feel this way because I, personally, do not want or need the government, or any part of it, throwing its weight behind any religious belief... especially my own. Government institutions have a nasty habit of botching things up, and I'm sure God will carry on just fine without their help.

Now, whether or not the fact that I happen to be a TE has anything to do with that, I don't know. I'm sure there are TEs out there who oppose the ACLU, and YECs who support it.

 

[chaoschristian]

I'm a card carrying member of the NRA and a TE. What does that say?

 

[vossler]

I'm a card carrying member of the NRA and a TE. What does that say?

I donts know, why donts you lie back fors aviel ansz tell me howz you becamez a member of zz NRA? Waz itz somzing fromz your childhood?

 

[SBG]

Here was me thinking belief in God was a substantial difference.



YECs will yoke themselves with charlatans and liars in order to discredit fellow believers. Are we any further forward in the debate? No.

Good question. After your statement are we now further along?

 

[SBG]

Sadly, I get the impression that people really don't want the anger and hatred to go away here. Instead it is what keeps them posting here and I feel if it wasn't here, this forum would be dead.

 

[Numenor]

Good question. After your statement are we now further along?

Of course we aren't. But that was never the intention of the OP.

 

[mark kennedy]

Agreed. I have never seen an acception to this as long as I have been here.

This can be objectively evidenced by their defense of those in the Dover trial that lied on the stand. The evidence is in the court transcripts and the judges decision.

They also yoke themselves with others who yoke themselves with nonbelievers (such as those who push for ID but accept an old earth and common descent because they trust the science) to discredit fellow believers.

I have never seen an acception to this as long as I have been here.

Just expressing my opinion and general impression of TE, nothing more.

I don't see how being a YEC yokes you with the people in the Dover case or Intelligent Design for that matter. I never really cared about the Dover case and never wanted creationism or ID taught in the public schools. I certainly don't approve of Panda's and People being used as a textbook for Biology. My impression of TE is a general lack of interest in the Scriptures, and I have yet to get a straight answer on a couple of pointed questions:

1. Where do we draw the line; special creation, the parting of the Red Sea, the miracles of Elijah and Elisha, the miracles of Christ and the Apostles, the ressurection?

2. What is the gospel according to TE? I would think that the message of salvation would be of interest to any Christian claiming abherance to the Nicean creed.

Change my perception, answer the questions.

Have a nice day
Mark