TE Observations

[vossler]

Fellow Origins Posters:

With a new year upon us I thought it might be a good time to take a step back a look at who we are and what makes us this way, more specifically, TEs and YECs.

The following statements are some of the ones that I can remember being made by TEs. As far as I know not a single one was ever refuted by another TE, so it would be safe to say that TEs, at least in general, believe these statements to be true. The purpose here is not to incite but to inform and assess what we believe.

When referring to the Bible as the Word of God many TEs are offended, to the point that some will call those who do believe this idolaters and/or blasphemers.

A TE stated that God loves everything, the animals, trees, plants and rocks, just like he loves us.

TEs stated that the feeding of the 5,000 was the miracle of sharing.

TEs are against the very idea of students even hearing about, much less studying, either Creationism or ID in a science classroom where origins is discussed.

These are in addition to the more obvious fundamental, foundational differences between TEs and YECs.

• When the Bible says that that God created in the universe, earth and all that is in it in 6 days, TEs view this as non-literal, meaning it was either allegorical or mythological. YECs believe the Bible, more specifically Genesis 1, simply states exactly what occurred.
• Science plays a significant role as to how a TE views and/or interprets the Bible. Science plays no role, or at most, a very small role, on how a YEC views and/or interprets the Bible.

Some other interesting observations:

Not a single TE statement or view listed above can be supported by the Bible.

Most TEs views are supported by the secular world.

TEs will yoke themselves with unbelievers in order to discredit a fellow believer.

TEs believe the ACLU to be a good organization.

O.K., now that I’ve said this, what’s my purpose with this thread? The most obvious answer would be that I want TEs to accept God’s Word as it is plainly written, but that would be too simple and probably not very realistic. However it is a good thing to pray for.

So the purpose of this thread is to inform. I’ve shown everyone how I see TEs and what I see as the fundamental differences between TEs and YECs are. If what I’ve stated above is incorrect or needs modification then I’d truly like to better understand. I would like all TEs who disagree with any of this statements to please feel free to do so, if no disagreement is noted then it would be safe to conclude these observations and/or statements to be true for the majority of TEs.

Now having said all that, I’d like to take a moment and give my reasons for being a member of CF.

I can’t speak for other YECs, but there are the two primary reasons I come here.

• To find out what people are saying and their reasoning for it.
• To defend and/or promote the Word of God.

A secondary reason for coming is to share among other believers and non-believers the hope I have in Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately, at times, I’ve allowed my flesh to get the better of me. I’ve said things I regretted, due primarily to my pride and self-righteousness. I’ve allowed certain individuals and/or statements to get under my skin when I shouldn’t care what someone may or may not say about me. This has inhibited my ability to share and be the man God has called me to be. I’m still a work in progress.

I’m still growing in my walk, but when I see something that looks wrong and can affect others I tend to speak up. I pray the Holy Spirit tempers my tongue and uses it in a manner to draw attention to and glorify my Savior Jesus Christ and not to defend me and/or my views but only Him and His Word. Everything else is just a waste of time.

One of those issues that are a waste of time that YECs (me included) have at times raised and called into question is a TEs faith and/or salvation. This primarily comes from some of the things stated above. Still, whether a TE is or isn’t a Christian isn’t something I am called to determine. So even if a TE or anyone else demonstrates few of the characteristics that make someone a believer, I’m not called to judge the individual. What I can and should judge are the individuals’ actions. So, my promise is to do just that, judge the actions, not the person.

 

[ebia]

Fellow Origins Posters:

With a new year upon us I thought it might be a good time to take a step back a look at who we are and what makes us this way, more specifically, TEs and YECs.

The following statements are some of the ones that I can remember being made by TEs. As far as I know not a single one was ever refuted by another TE, so it would be safe to say that TEs, at least in general, believe these statements to be true. The purpose here is not to incite but to inform and assess what we believe.

When referring to the Bible as the Word of God many TEs are offended, to the point that some will call those who do believe this idolaters and/or blasphemers.

A TE stated that God loves everything, the animals, trees, plants and rocks, just like he loves us.

TEs stated that the feeding of the 5,000 was the miracle of sharing.

TEs are against the very idea of students even hearing about, much less studying, either Creationism or ID in a science classroom where origins is discussed.

These are in addition to the more obvious fundamental, foundational differences between TEs and YECs.

• When the Bible says that that God created in the universe, earth and all that is in it in 6 days, TEs view this as non-literal, meaning it was either allegorical or mythological. YECs believe the Bible, more specifically Genesis 1, simply states exactly what occurred.
• Science plays a significant role as to how a TE views and/or interprets the Bible. Science plays no role, or at most, a very small role, on how a YEC views and/or interprets the Bible.

With the reservation that not all TEs hold to all of the above, I don't spot any major issues in the above depending on exactly what is meant by some of the statements.

However:

Some other interesting observations:

Not a single TE statement or view listed above can be supported by the Bible.

No less than the opposing views can be.

Most TEs views are supported by the secular world.

This is irrelevent unless you are trying to invoke the fallacy of guilt by association: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_by_association

TEs will yoke themselves with unbelievers in order to discredit a fellow believer

.This is irrelevent unless you are trying to invoke the fallacy of guilt by association: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_by_association
An invalid statement or argument does not suddenly become a valid one because an atheist contradicts it.

TEs believe the ACLU to be a good organization.

More "guilt by association".

O.K., now that I’ve said this, what’s my purpose with this thread?

To invoke a logical fallacy several times and hope no-one notices?

So the purpose of this thread is to inform. I’ve shown everyone how I see TEs and what I see as the fundamental differences between TEs and YECs are.

The conclusions others draw may not be the ones you intended.

 

[SBG]

Personally, I think a good question to ask is why do we [TEs and YECs] act more like enemies than like family? Aren't we all part of the same body?

I have been asking myself this question a lot lately.

 

[Mathematician]

Oh-boy. Can an OEC get in on this?

I only know of one true attempt at taking the Bible literally. It is by TE and author Dick Fischer in "The Origins Solution." He agrees with YECs that TE's generally don't take Scripture seriously. But he also tears apart the standard YEC and OEC models as also not being literal.

Gen. 2:4 claims that the 6 days of creation were many generations of the heavens. Last I looked, the atmosphere and the heavens haven't changed much in 5000 years of recoreded history. Got that, 5000 years is less than one generation of the heavens. Therefore, the 6 days are many multiples of 5000 years. That's what literalism gets you.

Cain was driven from "the face of the earth." God destroyed "the face of the earth" with a flood. Did Cain go into outerspace? Or did the flood destroy a lot less than what YECs and even OECs believe it did.

There were people where Cain went. They were strangers. Cain was afraid of them, yet eventually became ruler over them. What advantage did Cain have over these other people? The Bible says the women in Adam's family had exceptional physical beauty compared to other women. So much so, that and old woman named Sarah was desired by a young king who could have had any woman he wanted. The Bible says Adam's family had exceptional lifespans, such that even after diluting it at least 13 generations, Pharoah marveled at Jacob's extreme age.

The Bible claims the the Nephilim escaped Noah's Flood. They weren't in the ark. They were elsewhere. They missed being drowned by being in Canaan.

Noah's ark had Noah's livestock on it. That's what the words mean in Hebrew. No need for elephants, which the ark was not big enough to hold the food for.

And the New Testament compares the Flood to God's judgement against Sodom and Gomorrah and to God's judgement against Jerusalem and the Temple (which was destroyed by fire, 40 years after Jesus ascended into Heaven).

The so-called literal interpretation used by YECs requires numerous miracles relating to the flood that Scripture doesn't mention or even give an inkling of.

The TEs might not take Scripture literally, but neither do you YECs.

 

[The Lady Kate]

When referring to the Bible as the Word of God many TEs are offended, to the point that some will call those who do believe this idolaters and/or blasphemers.

Not necessarily so. But let us remember that calling the Bible "The Word of God" is not the same thing as "The Bible is God's direct and literal communique, having floated down from heaven directly into our laps."

To confuse the two is to confuse God's message with God Himself, which I think we all can agree is idolatry.

A TE stated that God loves everything, the animals, trees, plants and rocks, just like he loves us.

Well, insofar as anyone can love a rock, God certainly does... He did create them, did He not? I would like to know who told you that He loves them as much as us...

TEs stated that the feeding of the 5,000 was the miracle of sharing.

A TE stated that... so what?

TEs are against the very idea of students even hearing about, much less studying, either Creationism or ID in a science classroom where origins is discussed.

You'll also find that TEs are also against the very idea of students hearing about, much less studying alchemy, astrology, phrenology, astral projection, numerology, and necromancy in a science classroom.

These are in addition to the more obvious fundamental, foundational differences between TEs and YECs.

• When the Bible says that that God created in the universe, earth and all that is in it in 6 days, TEs view this as non-literal, meaning it was either allegorical or mythological. YECs believe the Bible, more specifically Genesis 1, simply states exactly what occurred.

True enough.

• Science plays a significant role as to how a TE views and/or interprets the Bible. Science plays no role, or at most, a very small role, on how a YEC views and/or interprets the Bible.

Also true, despite Creation "Science" ministries such as AiG or ICR's appearances to the contrary.

Some other interesting observations:

Not a single TE statement or view listed above can be supported by the Bible.

But they can be supported through a careful study of God's own creation.

Most TEs views are supported by the secular world.

You make that sound like a bad thing.

TEs will yoke themselves with unbelievers in order to discredit a fellow believer.

TEs will do what is necessary to help correct a fellow believer when we believe he/she is in error about a matter they may not have studied all the facts on.... even unbelievers have knowledge about things we do not. Shall we disregard them out of spite?

TEs believe the ACLU to be a good organization.

And this has what to do with anything?

O.K., now that I’ve said this, what’s my purpose with this thread? The most obvious answer would be that I want TEs to accept God’s Word as it is plainly written, but that would be too simple and probably not very realistic. However it is a good thing to pray for.

Perhaps God's word is not as plain as you would pray for us to think it is...

So the purpose of this thread is to inform. I’ve shown everyone how I see TEs and what I see as the fundamental differences between TEs and YECs are. If what I’ve stated above is incorrect or needs modification then I’d truly like to better understand. I would like all TEs who disagree with any of this statements to please feel free to do so, if no disagreement is noted then it would be safe to conclude these observations and/or statements to be true for the majority of TEs.

Disagreements and clarifications duly noted... at least for this TE.

Now having said all that, I’d like to take a moment and give my reasons for being a member of CF.

I can’t speak for other YECs, but there are the two primary reasons I come here.

• To find out what people are saying and their reasoning for it.
• To defend and/or promote the Word of God.

A secondary reason for coming is to share among other believers and non-believers the hope I have in Jesus Christ.

Reasons shared by (I would assume) most of the Christians here at CF... and the first one probably includes most of the unbelievers as well.

Unfortunately, at times, I’ve allowed my flesh to get the better of me. I’ve said things I regretted, due primarily to my pride and self-righteousness. I’ve allowed certain individuals and/or statements to get under my skin when I shouldn’t care what someone may or may not say about me. This has inhibited my ability to share and be the man God has called me to be.

I’m still a work in progress.

As are we all.

I’m still growing in my walk, but when I see something that looks wrong and can affect others I tend to speak up. I pray the Holy Spirit tempers my tongue and uses it in a manner to draw attention to and glorify my Savior Jesus Christ and not to defend me and/or my views but only Him and His Word. Everything else is just a waste of time.

Here's where you must realize that not every Christian view their faith as you do. When you say that "everything else is a waste of time," I have to disagree.

I am a believer in Jesus Christ. But I am more than that. I could make a list. Among the many other things I am, I am a fan of classic movies. Are Humphry Bogart, Errol Flynn, and the Marx Brothers "a waste of time" because I'm not glorifying Christ when I watch them?

Like you, I am a work in progress... a believer in Jesus Christ who happens to think that an ideal afternoon involves a cup of strawberry ice cream and watching The Adventures of Robin Hood on DVD for the 273rd time. Am I less of a Christian because of it?

One of those issues that are a waste of time that YECs (me included) have at times raised and called into question is a TEs faith and/or salvation. This primarily comes from some of the things stated above.

Wholeheartedly agreed. There are so many other things we could be discussing other than who's sincere, who's saved, or who's enough of a Christian, because those questions have already been answered... none of us are.... We try our best, and Christ has already forgiven us for coming up short.

Still, whether a TE is or isn’t a Christian isn’t something I am called to determine. So even if a TE or anyone else demonstrates few of the characteristics that make someone a believer, I’m not called to judge the individual.

That's good to hear, because I would be very puzzled as to which characteristics make someone a believer in your judgement, and which ones do not.

What I can and should judge are the individuals’ actions. So, my promise is to do just that, judge the actions, not the person.

Just so long as you remember that your own actions will also be judged.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Personally, I think a good question to ask is why do we [TEs and YECs] act more like enemies than like family? Aren't we all part of the same body?

I have been asking myself this question a lot lately.

Haven't you ever seen siblings fight?

 

[SBG]

Haven't you ever seen siblings fight?

Yes, I have. I don't believe this compares to siblings fighting. There is no love shown here in this forum. Only disdain for each other. I have yet to see a YEC stand up for a TE or visa versa here in this forum. And when fellowship is offered, arguements break out. That is what is consistent about this forum, heated and hateful arguements. Lord knows I have my handful of guilt for adding to this problem here. It is time for me to change and offer the same grace and mercy God has shown me. You can't expect God to give mercy and grace if we refuse to give it to others.

 

[chaoschristian]

Fellow Origins Posters:

With a new year upon us I thought it might be a good time to take a step back a look at who we are and what makes us this way, more specifically, TEs and YECs.

The following statements are some of the ones that I can remember being made by TEs. As far as I know not a single one was ever refuted by another TE, so it would be safe to say that TEs, at least in general, believe these statements to be true. The purpose here is not to incite but to inform and assess what we believe.

When referring to the Bible as the Word of God many TEs are offended, to the point that some will call those who do believe this idolaters and/or blasphemers.

A TE stated that God loves everything, the animals, trees, plants and rocks, just like he loves us.

TEs stated that the feeding of the 5,000 was the miracle of sharing.

TEs are against the very idea of students even hearing about, much less studying, either Creationism or ID in a science classroom where origins is discussed.

These are in addition to the more obvious fundamental, foundational differences between TEs and YECs.

• When the Bible says that that God created in the universe, earth and all that is in it in 6 days, TEs view this as non-literal, meaning it was either allegorical or mythological. YECs believe the Bible, more specifically Genesis 1, simply states exactly what occurred.
• Science plays a significant role as to how a TE views and/or interprets the Bible. Science plays no role, or at most, a very small role, on how a YEC views and/or interprets the Bible.

Some other interesting observations:

Not a single TE statement or view listed above can be supported by the Bible.

Most TEs views are supported by the secular world.

TEs will yoke themselves with unbelievers in order to discredit a fellow believer.

TEs believe the ACLU to be a good organization.

O.K., now that I’ve said this, what’s my purpose with this thread? The most obvious answer would be that I want TEs to accept God’s Word as it is plainly written, but that would be too simple and probably not very realistic. However it is a good thing to pray for.

So the purpose of this thread is to inform. I’ve shown everyone how I see TEs and what I see as the fundamental differences between TEs and YECs are. If what I’ve stated above is incorrect or needs modification then I’d truly like to better understand. I would like all TEs who disagree with any of this statements to please feel free to do so, if no disagreement is noted then it would be safe to conclude these observations and/or statements to be true for the majority of TEs.

Now having said all that, I’d like to take a moment and give my reasons for being a member of CF.

I can’t speak for other YECs, but there are the two primary reasons I come here.

• To find out what people are saying and their reasoning for it.
• To defend and/or promote the Word of God.

A secondary reason for coming is to share among other believers and non-believers the hope I have in Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately, at times, I’ve allowed my flesh to get the better of me. I’ve said things I regretted, due primarily to my pride and self-righteousness. I’ve allowed certain individuals and/or statements to get under my skin when I shouldn’t care what someone may or may not say about me. This has inhibited my ability to share and be the man God has called me to be. I’m still a work in progress.

I’m still growing in my walk, but when I see something that looks wrong and can affect others I tend to speak up. I pray the Holy Spirit tempers my tongue and uses it in a manner to draw attention to and glorify my Savior Jesus Christ and not to defend me and/or my views but only Him and His Word. Everything else is just a waste of time.

One of those issues that are a waste of time that YECs (me included) have at times raised and called into question is a TEs faith and/or salvation. This primarily comes from some of the things stated above. Still, whether a TE is or isn’t a Christian isn’t something I am called to determine. So even if a TE or anyone else demonstrates few of the characteristics that make someone a believer, I’m not called to judge the individual. What I can and should judge are the individuals’ actions. So, my promise is to do just that, judge the
actions, not the person.

It is generally considered good form that when one offers another an olive branch not to slap the other across the face with it.

As we are in fellowship with another through our faith, I refuse to believe that you are being intentionally disingenuous with this post, but I observe that your choice of words reflects poorly on your good intent.

As has already been pointed out, although you overtly state that you don't want to judge "TEs" what you post regarding them is judgmental, including veiled assertions doubting the faith of "TEs."

There is a dissonance between what you say you want to do, and what you are actually communicating through your post.

How am I to reconcile this?

 

[Numenor]

OP....riddled...with fallacy......brain cells......dieing......

 

[shernren]

But Vossler, wouldn't it be more accurate to preface your statements as such: "Some TEs say that ... Some TEs say that ... " I can as easily make similarly damaging claims about YECs ... I was typing them out when I realized that I don't want to repay insult for insult. (If you want to know, you can always PM me. )

I just have one other objection to vossler's list of "TE faults and fancies" ... the whole litany about how we believe what non-Christians have no problem believing. I just got back from a bookstore where I read this wonderful quote by Carl Sagan, which ended something like "Yes, they laughed at the Wright Brothers ... they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." When Jesus told people to pay their taxes, wasn't He agreeing to the "secular authorities" of the time? I think that the most damaging insinuation about TEs that is made here is that we are somehow in league with the evil, evil atheists out to corrupt pure Christendom with our wacky test-tube ideas. - in fact, I would go so far as to say that it is the only damaging insinuation made against TEs because it is behind practically every other insult made against them. If we are compromising away from a Christian perspective on the Bible then we must be compromising towards a worldly perspective on the Bible.

It's as if TEs believe what they believe just because the world believes it. If that were so then yes, every complaint against TEism is valid. And I will not deny that there are surely some who have such motivations.

But I would think that TEs, at least some of them, believe what they believe simply because the facts point that way for them. And I aspire to be a Christian scientist partly so that I will be able to say that truthfully: that I'm following the facts as God shows them to me, and not just what the scientific crowd is telling me.

To SBG: I understand what you mean even as I stand on the other side of the issue, and if I must find someone to blame I would start with myself. But what can we do about it? Is there anything that can be done about it at all?

I think that this kind of faceless interaction will inevitably bring about conflict. It is all too easy to forget that there is a real person on the other side whom you're busy shouting at, a person who goes to church and sings the same type of hymns (well, depending on denomination ), who also puts money into the offering bag, who reads the same Bible (although a tad differently ), who faces the same struggles of evangelism and discipling and sanctification and how to live Christian in such a ruined and horrible world. If we were talking face to face we probably wouldn't shout as much; we might even like each other. But like it or not, this is the reality that we live in: the world is changing into one where a significant portion of people in our lives are people we never see and meet. The Church needs to learn how to compensate and adapt to that before faceless communication fragments us, as it indeed has here.

 

[FreezBee]

These are in addition to the more obvious fundamental, foundational differences between TEs and YECs.

• When the Bible says that that God created in the universe, earth and all that is in it in 6 days, TEs view this as non-literal, meaning it was either allegorical or mythological. YECs believe the Bible, more specifically Genesis 1, simply states exactly what occurred.
• Science plays a significant role as to how a TE views and/or interprets the Bible. Science plays no role, or at most, a very small role, on how a YEC views and/or interprets the Bible.

Some other interesting observations:

Not a single TE statement or view listed above can be supported by the Bible.

Let me just throw in my 0.02$ as well

As for your points, yes, and here is a problem. Usually when referring to the Bible and creation, Genesis 1-3 are meant, but the Bible actually has other creation stories, e.g. Job in 38ff. Here's a small quote:

Job 38
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone- 7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

Note the parallelism used in the verses, e.g. in v. 7, "the morning stars" are parallel to "the angels" (lit. "the sons of God"), and "sang together" is parallel to "shouted for joy". So the (morning) stars are the angels are the sons of God. Not exactly the most commonly heard lesson. Yet it is in the Bible. The use of parallels are common to Semitic poetry, which is what science tells us.

Those who claim to read the OT literally in generally do not, because what does it mean to read the OT literally? It would mean to read it as literature, wouldn't it? Including respecting the literature genre, such as poetry, wouldn't it?

The problem for YECs and IDers is that they live in a fantasy world, where science is unneeded (because it isn't the real world). Now, in Genesis 2 we read this

9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Notice here that the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil are both in the middle of the garden. Then read the following from Genesis 3

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Adam and Eve are eating of the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden. Try to give a literal interpretation of that


- FreezBee

 

[knownbeforetime]

TEs will yoke themselves with unbelievers in order to discredit a fellow believer.

Is it a logical fallacy if that is indeed what you do? I don't understand why some can't just take the Bible for what it says.


Science relies on data and observation. To give a totally correct explanation of "everything" would require that an observer observe and record ALL things that are going on. Since no one can do that, science will never have a correct or perfect explanation for origins. However, God (who indeed observes and records all things), says that not only was he there when it happened but that he is the one responsible for it and he says, "I created it in six days and rested on the seventh."

IMHO, the Bible, the world, and God himself make so much more sense if you can take the Bible literally.

 

[vossler]

It is generally considered good form that when one offers another an olive branch not to slap the other across the face with it.

As we are in fellowship with another through our faith, I refuse to believe that you are being intentionally disingenuous with this post, but I observe that your choice of words reflects poorly on your good intent.

As has already been pointed out, although you overtly state that you don't want to judge "TEs" what you post regarding them is judgmental, including veiled assertions doubting the faith of "TEs."

There is a dissonance between what you say you want to do, and what you are actually communicating through your post.

How am I to reconcile this?

Please tell me where I slapped you across the face, certainly that was never my intention. If you felt this in my words please accept my apology for it was not so intended. I suppose when writing something such as this it is easy for words to be misunderstood because unlike face to face discussions, the inflections, expressions and mannerism is lost to the recipient.

The whole thing about faith was, at least I thought, clearly stated that I wasn't here to judge that. Help me to make it more clear.

Show me the dissonance between what I say and want to do and then we can reconcile the misunderstanding.

 

[vossler]

But Vossler, wouldn't it be more accurate to preface your statements as such: "Some TEs say that ... Some TEs say that ... " I can as easily make similarly damaging claims about YECs ... I was typing them out when I realized that I don't want to repay insult for insult. (If you want to know, you can always PM me. )

O.K. if you want me to get more specific I'll change it to Most My observations were not intended to be received as an insult. They were made to demonstrate the wide difference or disparity between a YEC and TE worldview. If you received it as an insult then I'd like you to point out those observations that are false, which, btw, you haven't done.

I just have one other objection to vossler's list of "TE faults and fancies" ... the whole litany about how we believe what non-Christians have no problem believing. I just got back from a bookstore where I read this wonderful quote by Carl Sagan, which ended something like "Yes, they laughed at the Wright Brothers ... they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." When Jesus told people to pay their taxes, wasn't He agreeing to the "secular authorities" of the time? I think that the most damaging insinuation about TEs that is made here is that we are somehow in league with the evil, evil atheists out to corrupt pure Christendom with our wacky test-tube ideas. - in fact, I would go so far as to say that it is the only damaging insinuation made against TEs because it is behind practically every other insult made against them. If we are compromising away from a Christian perspective on the Bible then we must be compromising towards a worldly perspective on the Bible.

This list that you refer to wasn't intended to be, as you put it 'faults and fancies.' These are areas where TEs clearly think differently than YECs. If you didn't agree with those points then you could have refuted them, however it appears that you've accepted them. If this is the case, then are you saying that TEs have a lot of 'faults and fancies.' Hmmm... BTW, your last sentence, I'd like you to read that again and tell me what am I to make of it; obviously if one is moving away from the Christian perspective one would be moving towards a worldly one, how is that even a question.

It's as if TEs believe what they believe just because the world believes it. If that were so then yes, every complaint against TEism is valid. And I will not deny that there are surely some who have such motivations.

I don't know why TEs believe what they believe, it appears to me that what the world believes has a significant influence on TE beliefs, but I can't say I know that.

But I would think that TEs, at least some of them, believe what they believe simply because the facts point that way for them. And I aspire to be a Christian scientist partly so that I will be able to say that truthfully: that I'm following the facts as God shows them to me, and not just what the scientific crowd is telling me.

There is no difference of opinion here. It is good to hear that you won't just be following what the scientific crowd is saying.

I think that this kind of faceless interaction will inevitably bring about conflict. It is all too easy to forget that there is a real person on the other side whom you're busy shouting at, a person who goes to church and sings the same type of hymns (well, depending on denomination ), who also puts money into the offering bag, who reads the same Bible (although a tad differently ), who faces the same struggles of evangelism and discipling and sanctification and how to live Christian in such a ruined and horrible world. If we were talking face to face we probably wouldn't shout as much; we might even like each other. But like it or not, this is the reality that we live in: the world is changing into one where a significant portion of people in our lives are people we never see and meet. The Church needs to learn how to compensate and adapt to that before faceless communication fragments us, as it indeed has here.

Obviously faceless interaction will bring about conflict and yes I believe most of us would like one another if we met each other in the pews and Sunday School classes of our churches. The difference is, at least for most of us, that those who we see each Sunday are not those with whom we typically discuss matters such as these.

 

[notto]

As far as I know not a single one was ever refuted by another TE, so it would be safe to say that TEs, at least in general, believe these statements to be true.

That would be a very poorly based conclusion.

Just at initial obervation, I disagree with your conclusions related to the following. If you think finding one TE that believes these things, and then because another didn't participate in the discussion specific to the topic that they all accept it, that would be poor reasoning.

When referring to the Bible as the Word of God many TEs are offended, to the point that some will call those who do believe this idolaters and/or blasphemers.

A TE stated that God loves everything, the animals, trees, plants and rocks, just like he loves us.

TEs stated that the feeding of the 5,000 was the miracle of sharing.

as for a few of the rest

Most TEs views are supported by the secular world.
TE's views are supported by observable evidence that can be found in the creation. Not sure what you mean by the secular world. If you are referring to reality, then yes, Most TE's views are supported by an observation of reality.

TEs will yoke themselves with unbelievers in order to discredit a fellow believer.
TE's don't yolk themselves with unbelievers,they simply agree with unbelievers that YEC ideas are often not supported with reality and often directly coflict with it. Do you consider it being yolked with unbelievers if we accept that germs cause disease or that God doesn't design each snowflake? This is a silly statement made by you intended to get a emotional reaction by invoking 'unbelievers'.

TEs believe the ACLU to be a good organization.'
Lots of Christians believe the ACLU to be a good organization. What a strange comment to make. It really has no bearing on the debate one way or the other and again it just seems to be one made to get an emotional reaction from those that think the ACLU is evil.You have done a nice job of trying to use emotion to rally believers against each other. Good show. Those bad TE's who think the ACLU is good and who accept scientists work as valid. This of course only plays to those that dislike the ACLU and fall for the falicy that science is somehow bad, corrupt, or misguided.

I guess we can conlcude from your statement that all YEC's like using emotional appeal instead of evidence or reason in their arguments.

 

[FreezBee]

IMHO, the Bible, the world, and God himself make so much more sense if you can take the Bible literally.

Excuse me for asking, but is that a hypothetical statement?

- FreezBee

 

[chaoschristian]

Please tell me where I slapped you across the face, certainly that was never my intention. If you felt this in my words please accept my apology for it was not so intended. I suppose when writing something such as this it is easy for words to be misunderstood because unlike face to face discussions, the inflections, expressions and mannerism is lost to the recipient.

The whole thing about faith was, at least I thought, clearly stated that I wasn't here to judge that. Help me to make it more clear.

Show me the dissonance between what I say and want to do and then we can reconcile the misunderstanding.

The dissonance is clearly articulated in posts #2 and #10, no need for me to go back over what has already been done so well.

I find your use of guilt by association, whether on purpose or inadvertant, especially ironic because it reminds so much of the stories of that other fellow who wandered around hanging out with all sorts of unscrupulous, un-clean and unsavory characters. Now what was his name . . . .

In terms of respecting my faith, if that is really what you intend, then why is it necessary for you to pray that I might "accept God's Word as it is plainly written"? Does that show respect in my faith? If anything it plainly demonstrates that you believe that I lack faith simce I am either incapable or unwilling to read the Bible as you do.

And lastly, let's go to the video for an instant replay of the slap, shall we?

The following statements are some of the ones that I can remember being made by TEs. As far as I know not a single one was ever refuted by another TE, so it would be safe to say that TEs, at least in general, believe these statements to be true. The purpose here is not to incite but to inform and assess what we believe.

That's what you wrote, and this is what I read:

The following unsubstantiated and undocumented statements are some of the ones that I can remember (or make up out of thin air, who would know since I haven't bothered to support my claims with quotes or links or anything that resembles definitive proof) being made by TEs (I hope that no one notices the subtle difference between some TEs saying some of these things and the over-generalization of saying that all TEs said all of these things. I don't think I'll bother to point that out.) As far as I know not a single one was ever refuted by another TE (and it is perfectly reasonable for me to expect that TEs should be a cohesive, self-organized group complete with a protocol for self-policing and a stated policy manual from which to police, even though this is an internet forum where if two TEs were ever meet face to face on the street they wouldn't know each other from Adam)so it would be safe to say that TEs (inasmuchas my presuppositions about TEs are true), at least in general (I love blanket statements) believe these statements to be true (guilt by associating being a proper form of reasoning. And might I add that if TEs don't bother to respond to this post then I will feel free to use it in all future exchanges to prove what cretinous heretics they are. After all they were given their fair chance, they've had their day in court now) The purpose here is not to incite (don't bother getting incited as I won't bother listening to it anyway) but to inform and assess (let's not dwell too long on the fact that the 'information' I've provided is completely unsubstantiated and ridiculously biased and interwoven with clear associations of guilt with evil atheists, human secularists and dare I say - the ACLU, no let's just sit back and have some fun throwing darts at the TEs - they don't feel the pain) what we believe (notice how subtly I've managed to insinuate myself as one of the TEs here? They'll never see what's coming.)

If you are sincere in your apology, then please think not twice, but thrice, before posting such things as this.

 

[Mathematician]

Is it a logical fallacy if that is indeed what you do? I don't understand why some can't just take the Bible for what it says.[/size][/font]


Science relies on data and observation. To give a totally correct explanation of "everything" would require that an observer observe and record ALL things that are going on. Since no one can do that, science will never have a correct or perfect explanation for origins. However, God (who indeed observes and records all things), says that not only was he there when it happened but that he is the one responsible for it and he says, "I created it in six days and rested on the seventh."

IMHO, the Bible, the world, and God himself make so much more sense if you can take the Bible literally.

In Hebrews 4:11, God is still resting.

There is nothing Humble in your opinion. It makes so much more sense if we believe Cain became the first astronaut when he was driven "from the face of the earth."

 

[vossler]

TEs will yoke themselves with unbelievers in order to discredit a fellow believer.
TE's don't yolk themselves with unbelievers,they simply agree with unbelievers that YEC ideas are often not supported with reality and often directly coflict with it. Do you consider it being yolked with unbelievers if we accept that germs cause disease or that God doesn't design each snowflake? This is a silly statement made by you intended to get a emotional reaction by invoking 'unbelievers'.

The key thing in my observation was "in order to discredit a fellow believer" Remember these observations are area where TEs and YECs are different.

TEs believe the ACLU to be a good organization.'
Lots of Christians believe the ACLU to be a good organization. What a strange comment to make. It really has no bearing on the debate one way or the other and again it just seems to be one made to get an emotional reaction from those that think the ACLU is evil.You have done a nice job of trying to use emotion to rally believers against each other. Good show. Those bad TE's who think the ACLU is good and who accept scientists work as valid. This of course only plays to those that dislike the ACLU and fall for the falicy that science is somehow bad, corrupt, or misguided.

I guess we can conlcude from your statement that all YEC's like using emotional appeal instead of evidence or reason in their arguments.

Again, only an observation to where TEs view the ACLU and how YECs view them, no emotion just fact.

 

[notto]

The key thing in my observation was "in order to discredit a fellow believer" Remember these observations are area where TEs and YECs are different.

Why the 'in order to discredit a fellow believer'? You are attaching motivation where it does not belong. I don't accept science to discredit a fellow believer. I accept science because it is valid and evidenced in reality. My fellow believers simply discredit themselves by accepting falsehoods and poor science that is demonstratably incorrect. Believer or not, I'll side with demontratable reality.

Again, only an observation to where TEs view the ACLU and how YECs view them, no emotion just fact.

But you invoked it to try to get an emotional response. Otherwise, what exactly does it have to do with the debate? Again, many Christians TE or otherwise think think the ACLU is a good organization. You simply try to tie TE's to it for an emotional response from your readers. The evil ACLU supporting TE's. That is the only apparent reason why you would even bring it into the discussion.