Buho said:
Can you point out the contradiction and the statements that are plainly false?
Sure. In the first paragraph that I quoted, you made the following points:
1. God has told us he's the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth.
2. God cannot lie. God is Truth. God is righteous. God is perfect. God loves us.
3. God is the source of all Logic, reason, and order.
You even went so far as to say:
We can ground our faith on these absolutes.
btw, I agree fully with all of this.
From this we should be able to conclude that the Creator created a heaven and earth that is orderly and open to being understood by reason and logic, and when so studied does not lie to us.
Yet in your next paragraph you say (or imply) that what observation and reason have deduced about the antiquity of the universe, its mode of origin, and about evolution are not to be believed, although this is what God's creation provides evidence for. That is the contradiction.
The errors are:
"if Genesis 1-11 isn't historical narrative and Darwinian evolution (plus billions of years) is fact,
1. there is no reason to be a Christian,
2. none of us need saving,
3.Jesus was a liar and a charletan,
4.the cosmos is all that ever was, is, and will be, and the Big Black
5.Nothing is there to greet me when I die."
None of these conclusions can be derived from either the theory of evolution or big bang theory or any other scientific theory. And theologically treating Gen. 1-11 as historical narrative is not fundamental to understanding our need for salvation and therefore having a reason to be Christian.
1. I didn't say "write." I said "told," ... The end result, though, is God's Truth, the scripture's inerrancy, and the scripture's sufficiency. Or do you deny these?
My apologies. Your use of the term "literally" misled me as to your position.
I have never adopted the doctrine of inerrancy. I was taught the Reformers' doctrine of infallibility on matters of faith and morals. I agree with sufficiency.
2. Given that you are not talking about God physically writing scripture, can you substantiate your belief that it is fact that God did not communicate his Creation story as literal? For instance, can you provide three reasons why you believe this to be fact?
I am not sure what would constitute substantiation. I can give you my opinion and the reasons for my opinion. I can also cite those more knowledgeable than myself as corroborating authorities.
The basic reasons I believe that the creation stories (and I do mean stories) are not literal are:
-they do not agree with the creation story told by creation itself,
-they do not agree with each other, notably in the order of creation,
-each is a carefully crafted piece of literature (esp. Gen.1) that is inconsistent with a simple reportage of actual historical events
-each has theological reasons not to be a simple report of events; each is crafted to teach about God, about humanity, about creation, about the interrelationships of God, humanity and creation on theological rather than historical terms.
If I gave you three reasons I believe why Genesis should be taken literally, would that refute your claim that "there is no reason"?
There are reasons. The primary reason is: sola scriptura.
It would depend on the reasons.
Sola scriptura is not a reason.
Sola scriptura concerns the authority of scripture. It does not imply that the creation stories be interpreted as historical narrative.
Additionally, I've read horror stories of children of Christians becoming atheists because their parents don't believe in a literal Genesis and the children follow the logical outworking of that (namely, if Genesis can't be read the way it reads and believed as truth, then what other parts of the Bible can't be trusted?). I am deeply concerned that Christians are contributing to the decay of the Church. (Bear in mind, this is my perspective. Just hear me out.)
Most TEs can also cite horror stories of children of YECists who left the Church when they discovered to what extent they had been misled about science. Since they had been taught that the bible and modern science were incompatible, their acceptance of the truth of science led them to reject their faith. TEs consider this a needless tragedy. It is also a needless tragedy that many scientifically aware people will not give Christianity the time of day because they have been convinced that one must shut off one's mind and deny reality in order to be Christian.
St. Augustine's 5th century warning about Christians who speak what they do not know in reference to science is very much a propos here.
Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn."
-- St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim"
(The Literal Meaning of Genesis)
I am actually quite surprised you said this. Can you support this sentence? Where have I mentioned scientific evidence?
See above. You mentioned Darwinian evolution, billions of years and Big Black [sic] (I think you meant Big Bang). From these scientific theories you drew the theological conclusions that we do not need to be saved, that the physical cosmos is the only reality and that there is no afterlife.
But science does not lend itself to theological conclusions of any kind.
1. Gluadys, do you realize that what you just said is, "we must fit God's Word with our observations of reality." This is borderline heresy.
Actually it is quite orthodox and derives clearly from what you yourself have stated. Of course we must fit God's Word with our observations of reality, since it is God's Word that created and upholds that reality, and God's Word cannot lie. Since the Word that made reality is truth, the works of the Word must be true.
Furthermore, since the Word (Logos) is rational and orderly, created a universe that is accessible to reason and logic, and gave us the capacity to apprehend his work via observation and logical reason, any correct apprehension of natural reality is an apprehension of God's truth.
You are placing man's knowledge as higher authority than God's knowledge.
Not at all. It seems so to you because you are conflating four realities into two. You are assuming that "man's knowledge" applies only to scientific knowledge of creation and not also to human understanding of scripture. Likewise, you are assuming that God's knowledge is accessible only through scripture and not also through creation.
We have two realities, two revelations, which come from God and are always true---created nature (general revelation) and scripture (special revelation).
We have two realities which come from fallible human understanding and can always be infected by human error----our limited understanding of creation (science) and our limited understanding of scripture (theology).
I recognize that science is a limited understanding of creation. I do not set it above God's knowledge of either creation or scripture. But I do set it alongside of our theology, that is, our limited and sometimes fallible understanding of scripture.
These are the correct comparisons:
scripture<---->creation
both words of truth from God
human interpretations of scripture<--->human interpretations of creation
both subject to the fallibility of human reason.
You are assuming that we have a perfect access to God's knowledge of scripture while we do not have perfect access to God's revelation in creation. I see no reason to make this assumption. I believe that in both cases we only have access to human interpretations of what God has revealed.
Of course, just because our interpretations are fallible, does not mean they cannot be right a large part of the time. But if we can be right about what scripture teaches, we can also be right about what we learn of creation.
Need another post to complete reply.