Swingers - Swapping Partners

[Armistead]

Thread already exists and the topic has been rolled-over. We have to assume that God does not hate polygamy because he has never made a law against it. He obviously hates adultery, murder, theft, etc...but don't you think if he "hates polygamy" we would find a law somewhere in the Torah that states "thou shalt take no more than one wife"? You don't want to believe the facts right before your eyes. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a sin. God has not spoken against polygamy...so you shouldn't either!




I'm just saying if you're going to put up an argument against polygamy, you're not going to do it using the OT. I agree that the Bible says God never changes...and if that is true then he is still not against polygamy. BTW...God DID NOT write the Bible...men did. This is historical fact.

chingchang

Polygamy existed long after Christ and was never seen as a sin by the early Christians, nor were they taught that it was..only Pastors were limited to one wife in the NT. With David..God said the only sin that mattered was with "Uraih", nothing else.

The issue being swinging doesn't compare with polygamy, concubinage..ect...God allowed these to promote for the care and protection of women and children.

I agree with the premise the law of love is the only command that we follow..which means to do no harm. There are just too many dangers when it comes to swinging that people don't consider that could cause harm.

 

[Floatingaxe]

No one is being sanctimonious here. Just tellin' it like it is! We believe what God's Word says about everything. We don't pick and choose at sexual mores, saying one thing is ok and another isn't.

Swinging is sex with more than one's spouse. Period. It is a vile sin and deadly spiritually (not to mentiun emotionally and mentally these people are off their rockers!)

 

[TheReasoner]

No one is being sanctimonious here. Just tellin' it like it is! We believe what God's Word says about everything. We don't pick and choose at sexual mores, saying one thing is ok and another isn't.

Swinging is sex with more than one's spouse. Period. It is a vile sin and deadly spiritually (not to mentiun emotionally and mentally these people are off their rockers!)

You're a literalist?

You don't exist, if that's the case. There is no such thing as a literalist because literal interpretation of the bible is impossible. And living according to literal reading is equally impossible. Do you cover your head? Do you eat pork? Does your husband sometimes sit in the same chair you have used when you were on your period? Have you ever eaten rare meat? Worked on the Sabbath? If so, then you are not a literalist.
I agree with what you say about swinging, but you need to revise your argument because it is a huge logical fallacy more than anything else, and as such it will be very easily picked apart and dismissed. Not just because such an argument as the one you just presented is a logical fallacy, but because it lacks both logos and ethos and as such will make you lose many or possibly even most readers in one fell swoop.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I am not a literalist. I know when God uses metaphore and allegory and poetic license. Believing God's Word about everything doesn't make one a literalist! LOL! It means one klnows god and knows what He is saying by virtue of the Holy Spirit who lives within the believer.

Hahah! Logical fallacy!

God says that having sexual relations whioth someone who isn't one's spouse is a sin. Swinging among marrieds is adultery and among unmarrieds is just catting around and it is sex outside of marriage and is a sin. Pretty simple.

 

[Nadiine]

Everybody SHOULD be a "literalist" when they read:

thou shall not commit adultery.


& verses that if you continue to live in these
sexual sins you WILL NOT enter heaven.
What part of that is unclear? & what other meaning
does somebody hope to gather from such words of
warning? That it's telling them to shine their
shoes on Sundays only???

Gosh if we can live in adultery, homosexuality, polygamy
& fornication, then why not inappropriate behavior with animals, pedophilia or incest?
What's the big leap? Why not orgies too while we're heaping
it on.

The warnings ARE clearly given, and you live in a postmodern
world where we have the scripture & are brought under a
grace covenant by Christ. God once allowed them to live
in such ways under the sacrificial system of sacrificing an
animal for "sins of ignorance". That is gone now.

It just humors me to see people trying to use the OT to condone
sexual sin,
then conveniently attacking it to pretend it's obsolete when it nails them for sins they want people to be able to continue.

IT DOESN'T WORK KIDS.


Due to CF's rules, I obviously can't say what should
be said around here. But a Christian will KNOW
that living in sexual immorality IS very serious sin
and won't continue in it.
And they certainly won't label their faith, tieing Christ
WITH their sin.

 

[Nadiine]

1. 1 Corinthians 6:15
   Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!
   1 Corinthians 6:14-16 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 6 (Whole Chapter)
2. 1 Corinthians 6:16
   Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”
   1 Corinthians 6:15-17 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 6 (Whole Chapter)

18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s

Real Christians do not attach sin to Christ and flaunt it in the name of
their faith.

 

[holo]

One the one hand y'all go "christians are still sinners!"
and on the other hand you go "you're not a christian if you still sin!"

Which means, of course, that your sin isn't as grave as theirs. Because there are apparently two different kinds of sin, the sins you commit, which don't really count, and then there's real sin. The difference being, apparently, that the real sinners just don't agree with you that what they're doing is sinful in the first place.

You talk as if people's own consicence doesn't matter at all, like you have som complete list over sinful and accepted actions.

God looks to the heart, you don't. You look at the outward apperance and judge the heart based on that. You should be glad God doesn't do that, or you would surely lose your salvation over all the mistakes you've done and all the wrongs you still haven't repented for because you don't even know you committed them.

Or do you think God is perfectly pleased with every single thing you do? Nothing that should be changed in your thinking, your theology, your actions?

It's sinful to judge people the way you do, assuming you know their very hearts. And you continually refuse to repent from it. So will God take back your salvation even though you're so imperfect and take advantage of his grace? No, because salvation thankfully doesn't depend on you doing or understanding everything flawlessly.

I experience the same problem all the time just by drinking wine. Loads of christians are blaming me for "willful sin" (can you sin without doing it on purpose anyway?) because "the bible clearly says" that it is sinful. I don't agree, but I have to respect that their understanding of the bible differs from mine. They're not stupid or evil. For them it would be sin to drink wine.

Because it's not what goes into the body that defiles it. Everything is clean for he who is clean, it's not the food or the actions themselves that condemn you, but your own conscience. Or your heart, if you will.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Many people have a problem with conscience. It is not always a reliable way to know that one has sinned, as many people willfully turn off their conscience because they are not driven by it--they are driven by lust and self. People sear their consciences by sin and renders it ineffective...UH OH! iT DOESN'T WORK!

We have the Holy spirit who speaks to us about sin and we have the Holy Word of God which lays it out plainly for those who don't hear God's voice within.


Either way, there is no excuse in a believer for sinning so blatantly as is decribed in this thread. I notice most contributors that are in favour of living by conscience only, disregarding the Scriptures, are male. Hmmm.


It isn't judging to point out sin. It is our job as believers. Only the guilty or the weak will be insulted by it. Those who are convicted and desire God will respond favourably with remprse, then repent and get right with God. that is the purpose of Christians speaking up...not with criticism, but with truth.

 

[wayseer]

Swinging is sex with more than one's spouse. Period. It is a vile sin and deadly spiritually

I don't remember saying anything to suggest otherwise.

What I am saying is that there appears any number of posters who are willing to claim, 'Thank God I'm not like that poor wretched swinger - that adulterer - that homosexual - over there. I study your word, I follow your decrees, I give to the poor'.

We are not made 'righteous' to show off to our peers how 'good' we are.

You might like to re-read Luke 18:9-14.

 

[holo]

Many people have a problem with conscience. It is not always a reliable way to know that one has sinned, as many people willfully turn off their conscience because they are not driven by it--they are driven by lust and self. People sear their consciences by sin and renders it ineffective...UH OH! iT DOESN'T WORK!

True, that can happen, but I don't think it's all that common. I think you should be extremely careful saying someone have seared their conscience.

Take Luther for example. He had a great revelation of grace and transformed christianity as we know it. But he also said

"Be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils ... they know they are steeped in manifest vices mently, just as the devils themselves do. And where you see or hear a Jew teaching, remember that you are hearing nothing but a venomous basilisk who poisons and kills people ... The devil with all his angels has taken possession of this people ... Jews, Turks, papists, radicals abound everywhere. All of them claim to be the church and God's people in accord with their conceit and boast, regardless of the one true faith ... "

- and that's not even taken out of context.
I don't think for a second that Luther had "seared his consciense" even though he vomited up this racist garbage.

BTW, here's another thing he said:
“Who loves not wine, women and song, Remains a fool his whole life long”


(it even rhymes!)

Either way, there is no excuse in a believer for sinning so blatantly as is decribed in this thread. I notice most contributors that are in favour of living by conscience only, disregarding the Scriptures, are male. Hmmm.

1. I don't think anybody here are disregarding the scriptures, they just disagree on how to interpret and apply them. Getting something wrong doesn't mean you don't respect it or don't want to follow it.
2. Do you believe men have lower moral standards than women?

It isn't judging to point out sin. It is our job as believers. Only the guilty or the weak will be insulted by it.

Just because someone is insulted doesn't mean they're guilty though. I'd be 100% insulted if you implied I was a rapist, for example. Not because I'm guilty, but because I'm NOT guilty.

Those who are convicted and desire God will respond favourably with remprse, then repent and get right with God. that is the purpose of Christians speaking up...not with criticism, but with truth.

I would never want to have more than one wife, for many reasons, one of them being that I can't imagine what fidelity and commitment would be all about if I was to have more than one partner and lover. There are GOOD reasons to be against polygamy and infidelity, or against child marriage for that matter. We don't need to find a bible verse to warn against it.

 

[sunlover1]

True, that can happen, but I don't think it's all that common. I think you should be extremely careful saying someone have seared their conscience.

Take Luther for example. He had a great revelation of grace and transformed christianity as we know it. But he also said

"Be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils ... they know they are steeped in manifest vices mently, just as the devils themselves do. And where you see or hear a Jew teaching, remember that you are hearing nothing but a venomous basilisk who poisons and kills people ... The devil with all his angels has taken possession of this people ... Jews, Turks, papists, radicals abound everywhere. All of them claim to be the church and God's people in accord with their conceit and boast, regardless of the one true faith ... "

- and that's not even taken out of context.
I don't think for a second that Luther had "seared his consciense" even though he vomited up this racist garbage.

BTW, here's another thing he said:
“Who loves not wine, women and song, Remains a fool his whole life long”


(it even rhymes!)

1. I don't think anybody here are disregarding the scriptures, they just disagree on how to interpret and apply them.

Hello Holo.
Actually, when ppl seem to disregard Scripture it's a heart issue.
They've , as FA implied, disregarded His Voice for so long that they
can no longer hear it when and IF He speaks. They cannot hear
because their ears have grown dull, and their eyes have closed.
Jesus made that clear.

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and should understand with their
heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I don't remember saying anything to suggest otherwise.

What I am saying is that there appears any number of posters who are willing to claim, 'Thank God I'm not like that poor wretched swinger - that adulterer - that homosexual - over there. I study your word, I follow your decrees, I give to the poor'.

We are not made 'righteous' to show off to our peers how 'good' we are.

You might like to re-read Luke 18:9-14.

That's not happening here. We have been given opportunity to speak regarding a particular sin, and we do so, to encourage those weak in their faith who may be reading this thread that it is indeed detestable before the God who sees all.

It stands to reason that believers in Christ are not behaving in these ways. To suggest that we are proudly declaring our personal holiness--that is wrong. We declare Jesus Christ, our righteousness.

 

[wayseer]

[We have been given opportunity to speak regarding a particular sin, and we do so

Who is this 'we' you refer to?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Who is this 'we' you refer to?

Christians who believe the Word of God.

 

[holo]

Hello Holo.
Actually, when ppl seem to disregard Scripture it's a heart issue.
They've , as FA implied, disregarded His Voice for so long that they
can no longer hear it when and IF He speaks. They cannot hear
because their ears have grown dull, and their eyes have closed.
Jesus made that clear.

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and should understand with their
heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

That's a serious thing to say about your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Would you say the same about Martin Luther? I think whenever people show the attitude that "I have the one and only true understanding of things, I am the one who follows the bible" that's a sign that they are closing their eyes and their ears.

 

[holo]

Christians who believe the Word of God.

There it is again...

We believe in God, you just make up your own.
We read the whole bible, you just pick and choose.
We are the real christians, you are not, because you think A or act like B or understand C differently.
Disagreeing with us means you are disagreeing with God.

That attitude is more poinsonous and destructive than any sort of weird opinion someone may have on swinging or polygamy or whatever. It's an attitude from hell, and people who have it are in much more need of repentance than a swinger.

 

[Nadiine]

Many people have a problem with conscience. It is not always a reliable way to know that one has sinned, as many people willfully turn off their conscience because they are not driven by it--they are driven by lust and self. People sear their consciences by sin and renders it ineffective...UH OH! iT DOESN'T WORK!

<cut>

Absolutely true.

That's why I usually say "if you feel guilty & wrong THE VERY FIRST TIME OR 2 that you commit a certain act, THAT is your guilty conscience warning you to stop. & you are responsible to obey that.
You knew it was wrong.
But it's when people blatantly continue in something becuz they
lust & desire to do it that over time, they brainwash themselves
& keep excusing the sin; making justifications for it.

Eventually, they buy into the lie & the sin has become common -
they turned the guilt off long enough for it to stop bothering them
(after desensitization).

You know, this happened to me LOTS of years back in my heathen days.
I used to meet w/ my friends at the in the parking lot & we'd party before
we went in.... so we'd hang out on cars & in cars.... & in the side woods area, etc.

I had been grounded for like `1 month from going there -- so I was at home all the time that month.
When it came time I could go back, I remember my mom drove me there
& just as she pulled in the lot, I could see all the people I hung out w/
on top of their cars (not drinking yet) -- & you know, I had this wierd
surreal moment looking at them from a ways away, that they looked
like a bunch of scary punks - a really hard crowd that I'd NEVER
walk up to & feel I belonged.

I was literally scared about who I hung out with at that moment & just
wanted to go home. I don't remember what I did becuz it's been so many yrs ago when I still lived at home -
but when you're away from your sin a while & then go back to it
with different eyes, it can really be an eye opener as to how far you've
morally sunk.
that's happened to me more than once.

But maybe it's becuz God always was hounding me that way.
It was relentless for me which is why I had to drink so much in order
to continue in it.

 

[NaLuvena]

The issue of consent absolutely DOES come into play because the wife was the man's PROPERTY. There is no coveting or stealing if consent is involved. Ever wonder why adultery is a sin? What was the point of the 10 commandments? Every law given to men from God can be tested against the 10 commandments to understand how/why it is a sin. Adultery does not involve consent...and always involves first coveting your neighbor's property (i.e. wife) and next stealing (taking without consent of the owner) that property. Ultimately, of course, love is the fullfilment of the law (see the NT). So, if love is first in our decision-making and nobody is being harmed...there is NO sin.

You don't have to accept it. Romans 14 speaks about the difference between those who can and can not accept it. I hope I have not hurt you faith by saying this...for it was/is not my intention.

Hugs All!
chingchang

Actually it doesn't. Whether the consent was given or not, is immaterial. As long as a married woman sleeps with a man who is not her wife, according to the Law, they were to be stoned to death.

Why is adultery a sin? Because it is the separating of what God has joined together. God said "For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one." Adultery is man's attempt to break what God has joined.

The idea that a woman was a man's property was a cultural one, it is not that way in God's eyes. God never created a woman to be owned by a man.

 

[chingchang]

Actually it doesn't. Whether the consent was given or not, is immaterial. As long as a married woman sleeps with a man who is not her wife, according to the Law, they were to be stoned to death.

Why is adultery a sin? Because it is the separating of what God has joined together. God said "For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one." Adultery is man's attempt to break what God has joined.

The idea that a woman was a man's property was a cultural one, it is not that way in God's eyes. God never created a woman to be owned by a man.

We agree. You just wrote:

"Adultery is man's attempt to break what God has joined"

That is YOUR definition of adultery...and it is very similar to mine and to what I believe God views as adultery. This definition doesn't necessarily involve a sex act. Consent does matter...because if there is consent then there is no breaking of what "God has joined". If a man does not attempt to break the other's marriage covenant and the marriage convenant isn't broken...then there is no adultery.

I also agree with you that it was not God's design for Man to be over Woman...such that the Woman became the property of the Man. However...it is our reality none-the-less and is so because God made it so when cursing Adam and Eve in the garden. The simple fact is that a wife was the property of a man just like an ox during OT times. If the man wanted to loan his ox out for work...he had the right to do that. Same with his wife. No breaking of the marriage covenant.

Dueteronomy 22:22 (KJV)
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

The reference you made to the law can be found in Deut 22:22 (above). The idea here is that the man "be found" lying with a woman married. There is no consent when someone "be found". If I came home from work and "be found" my wife lying with another man...that would be adultery. I did not consent to it and that is a direct attempt to break the marriage covenant. So...consent absolutely matters. When a marriage covenant is established...the woman becomes the property of the man (OT) and the man becomes the property of the woman (NT Paul-thing):

1 Cor 7:4 (NIV)
The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

Of course love is the fulfillment of the law. So...if I love my wife I would never ask her to do something that would harm her or that she isn't comfortable with. And her the same with me. So...if there is no breaking of the marriage covenant due mutual consent...and love rules...then where is the sin? What is most important?

1 Cor 13:13 (NIV)
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I think even if it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that adultery isn't necessarily a sex act some here would still find reasons to judge and condemn swinging. I like to call it "modern-day Phariseeism". The letter of the law isn't what we should be focusing on...it is the Spirit of the law. The law was given to show us something. If you understand the big picture behind the law and what Jesus taught (and Paul too)...you'll see it is ALL about love. If there is no harm done to people then there is no sin.

Hugs,
chingchang

 

[Floatingaxe]

I think even if it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that adultery isn't necessarily a sex act some here would still find reasons to judge and condemn swinging. I like to call it "modern-day Phariseeism". The letter of the law isn't what we should be focusing on...it is the Spirit of the law. The law was given to show us something. If you understand the big picture behind the law and what Jesus taught (and Paul too)...you'll see it is ALL about love. If there is no harm done to people then there is no sin.

Judge and condemn swinging? Of course we do! Do you wish to preserve the practice for some particular virue it holds?

This is truly the epitome of:

Isaiah 5:20
What sorrow for those who say
that evil is good and good is evil,
that dark is light and light is dark,
that bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter.


What I am seeing is apostasy. The harm is done to one's spirit--sin kills it.