Swingers - Swapping Partners

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LightHorseman

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sure that much is easy. but there is a difference between that and then believing in your consent deal. remember the #1 commandment is to love God first. other people is second. i still only see swinging as loving yourself which really isn't promoted anywhere in the Bible.
Bear with me here... I believe, sincerely, that the way to obey #1 is by obeying #2 to the best of our ability. And yes, I am sure there IS a degree of self love in swinging... but there would also have to be openness and sharing with your spouse, right? And isn't that love of others? I don't thing things are necesarily bad JUST because they make someone happy (love of self) are they? I still contend things are only bad if they harm others, without consent.
good point, my bad.
I appreciate your acknowledgement of this.
but even if following previous laws set by God so blindly as you think i am, i'd rather do that then taking the rather big risk of causing more harm when i make a consent loophole.
You are welcome to "play it as safe" as you see fit, of course. But please please understand I don't think consent is a loophole, I think its a BENCHMARK!
 
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JohnT

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I am more than happy to accept that different people can interpret passages in different ways, and that context plays a big role. Indeed, I wish more people around here accepted that.

That is most magnanimous of you. Please tell us how many "different ways" that this can be LEGITIMATELY and LOGICALLY be interpreted?

The word translated "adultery" is used 34 times in the KJV Its meanings are below.

adulteresses (1), adultery (1), all adulterers (2), also of the adulterer (1), and against the adulterers (1), and commit adultery (1), and committed adultery (1), and committing adultery (1), and the adulteress (1), because they (1), committed adultery (1), from them! for they (1), have they committed adultery (1), Neither shalt thou commit adultery (1), of adulterers (1), of adulteresses (1), of an adulterous (1), of the adulterer (1), shall commit adultery (1), that committeth adultery (3), That they have committed adultery (1), the adulterer (1), thee, as women that break wedlock (1), They (1), they commit adultery (1), they then committed adultery (1), Thou shalt not commit adultery (1), when they commit adultery (1), whoso committeth adultery (1), with adulterers (1), yet an adulteress (1)

Exod 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery .

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that … …committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and …
…he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put … …committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Deut 5:18
Neither shalt thou commit adultery .

Job 24:15 The eye also of the adulterer waiteth for the twilight, saying, No eye …

Ps 50:18 …thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers .
Prov 6:32 But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he …

Prov 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, …

Isa 57:3 …hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the harlot.

Jer 3:8 …when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given …

Jer 3:9 …of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

Jer 5:7 …when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the …

Jer 7:9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto …

Jer 9:2 …that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous …
…people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.

Jer 23:10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land …

Jer 23:14 …in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also …

Jer 29:23 …have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours’ wives, and have spoken …

Ezek 16:32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband! … Ezek 16:38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I …

Ezek 23:37
That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and …
…is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom …

Ezek 23:45 …men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that …
…after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their …
…of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

Hos 3:1 …yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD …

Hos 4:2 …By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth …

Hos 4:13 …your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery .

Hos 4:14 …daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with harlots, and …

Hos 7:4
They are all adulterers, as an oven heated …
They are all adulterers, as an oven heated by the baker, …

Mal 3:5 …will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those …

Now please tell me and others how these passages can have different people can interpret passages in different ways as you preposterously allege. Saying that aloud would make someone's face break, it is so contradictory. :)

To bolster my point, here it is defined from first a secular, contemporary source Merriam Webster's 11th collegiate
adul•tery \ə-ˈdəl-t(ə-)rē\ n
pl -ter•ies [ME, alter. of avoutrie, fr. AF avulterie, fr. L adulterium, fr. adulter adulterer, back-formation fr. adulterare] 15c : voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband also : an act of adultery​
Here it is in a world-recognized source of Biblical data:
Adulterer (–ess), Adulterous, Adultery
ADULTERER (–ESS), ADULTEROUS,ADULTERY
A. Nouns.
1. MOICHOS (μοιχός , (3432)) denotes one who has unlawful intercourse with the spouse of another, Luke 18:11; 1 Cor. 6:9; Heb. 13:4. As to Jas. 4:4, see below.
2. MOICHALIS (μοιχαλίς , (3428)), an adulteress, is used (a) in the natural sense, 2 Pet. 2:14; Rom. 7:3; (b) in the spiritual sense, Jas. 4:4; here the R.V. rightly omits the word “adulterers.” It was added by a copyist. As in Israel the breach of their relationship with God through their idolatry, was described as adultery or harlotry (e.g., Ezek. 16:15, etc.; 23:43), so believers who cultivate friendship with the world, thus breaking their spiritual union with Christ, are spiritual adulteresses, having been spiritually united to Him as wife to husband, Rom. 7:4. It is used adjectivally to describe the Jewish people in transferring their affections from God, Matt. 12:39; 16:4; Mark 8:38. In 2 Pet. 2:14, the lit. translation is “full of an adulteress” (R.V. marg.).¶
3. MOICHEIA (μοιχεία , (3430)), adultery, is found in Matt. 15:19; Mark 7:21; John 8:3 (A.V. only).¶​
B. Verbs.
1. MOICHAŌ (μοιχάω , (3429)), used in the Middle Voice in the N.T, is said of men in Matt. 5:32; 19:9; Mark 10:11; of women in Mark 10:12.¶
2. MOICHEUŌ (μοιχεύω , (3431)) is used in Matt. 5:27, 28, 32 (in ver. 32 some texts have No. 1); 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; John 8:4; Rom. 2:22; 13:9; Jas. 2:11; in Rev. 2:22, metaphorically, of those who are by a Jezebel’s solicitations drawn away to idolatry.¶​
¶ indicates that all the N.T. occurrences of the Greek work under consideration are mentioned under the heading or sub–heading.

Vine, W., & Bruce, F. (1981; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996). Vine's Expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words (33). Old Tappan NJ: Revell.


Now, I RESPECTFULLY submit to you that in the light of all above, that I have submitted, for ANYONE to attest to the position that different people can interpret passages in different ways as you state is either delusional or worshiping a god of her/his own making, and is not the same God as that of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

If you or anyone else is able able to LEGITIMATELY and LOGICALLY say differently what I wrote above is incorrect, and not some politically correct new age mumbo jumbo, etc, I want to see that.

Meanwhile, I prefer to believe that God did not stutter; He says what He means, means what he says, and those who try to distort what he clearly stated needs to read his promise to you in the last chapter of Revelation. It is devastating.
 
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Zecryphon

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Sermon of the mount. 2 new commandments.

The sermon on the mount is the most damning sermon in the entire Bible. Where in those three chapters of Matthew does Christ condone swinging? Where in there does Jesus give His approval of this activity? Chapter and verse please. Others have given you chapter and verse for their beliefs, so I think it's only proper that you show others the same kind of courtesy.
 
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LightHorseman

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The sermon on the mount is the most damning sermon in the entire Bible. Where in those three chapters of Matthew does Christ condone swinging? Where in there does Jesus give His approval of this activity? Chapter and verse please. Others have given you chapter and verse for their beliefs, so I think it's only proper that you show others the same kind of courtesy.

No chapter and verse where Jesus condemns swinging either. Thus, we are left to make our own interpretation built on the best available evidence, and, I believe, that swinging, in certain circumstances is acceptible in line with Christ's 2 new commandments to us.
 
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david_x

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No chapter and verse where Jesus condemns swinging either. Thus, we are left to make our own interpretation built on the best available evidence, and, I believe, that swinging, in certain circumstances is acceptible in line with Christ's 2 new commandments to us.

I find it easy to how wrong this is in light of what marriage is. Marriage is the bonding of 3 in a bond, never to be broken (God is the first). When a married man or women steps out of this bond, the cheat. If they are not cheating on their wife, as some may see it, they are cheating on God who will not consent to the practice of swinging.
 
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LightHorseman

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I find it easy to how wrong this is in light of what marriage is. Marriage is the bonding of 3 in a bond, never to be broken (God is the first). When a married man or women steps out of this bond, the cheat. If they are not cheating on their wife, as some may see it, they are cheating on God who will not consent to the practice of swinging.
If that is your interpretation of what marriage is, that's fine, really. I'm not telling you to change it. I am putting forward the idea that other people may not see it the same way, and they may have just as good reasons for their conclusions as you have for yours. One that occurs to me as I type is that some people put far more importance on their mental conection than their physical one, and see "emotional infidelity" as cheating, yet think that physical infidelity is something that keeps a relationship fresh and new.
 
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JohnT

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I just had an understanding as to why I believe this obscene thread has continued so long (9 months) even with the alert mods first making comment, then restoring it. At first I thought that the 19 years old who did was the son of the owner. You know, NEPOTISM RULES.

Having no evidence of that, I have come to the conclusion that the GOLD RULE is what is behind this. You know, it goes like this: He who has the gold, rules.

The way it works is simple, but sneaky.

Every time we log in, we are faced with a sidebar that says,
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!
So the choice is to shell out money to see no ads, or ignore the "invitation" and CF STILL gets money, but not from us, but from the ad sponsors, at 15 cents per hit, I believe.. That adds up quickly, especially on a hot topic.

In other words, the owners of this cite are making money from people like us who are trying to do apologetics or otherwise doing the Lord's work,

However, the owners get MORE revenue from topics like this, and the pro GBLT issues. Everytime we post, with, or without sponsoring the site, the owners earn money, and the more "interest" that these abominations generate, the more intrest goes into the wallets of the hosts of the site.

Now, I am not against making money. That is capitalism, however when someone makes money on a site subject thread that is surely anti God, and all that Christianity stands for, I believe that that is in itself, an abomination.

Barring courageous action by a mod or administrator, these threads will continue. (Have you ever wondered how some of the salacious ads got on here when they forst came? They are packaged for CF by Google, and any mod or admin who says anything bad about them will loose his / her job. That is called intimidation) That is why I say it takes courageous action by a mod or administrator to take action, So let's all "NICELY URGE" the people responsible to act like responsible Christians.

Since Monday is MKL day, we can all act as he urged people to do in Selma regarding the problem with public transportation, and apply the same principle here.

The true gold resides in the consumers of a product, not the sellers.
 
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Nadiine

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Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!
Veering off topic for 1 post --
Use the Firefox 3 browser (free download) & then download the
small [free] ad removal program --
no more ads.

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Zecryphon

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(To be fair you are talking to the Church, we are all Christians on this thread.)

On the other hand, you are mostly correct. This was to a specific Church group that Paul was writing to.

I disagree with your first statement.
 
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Zecryphon

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No chapter and verse where Jesus condemns swinging either.
:doh:By swinging you are committing adultery, since you are having sex with someone you are not married to. Jesus condemned this behavior in Matthew 5:27-28. He also condemned it in Matthew 19:18, Mark 7:21, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20. So your above assertion is hereby proven false. Now go read Romans 13:9 it completely destroys your argument.

Rom 13:9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

You're dead in the water. Scripture clearly teaches here that in order to love your neighbor as yourself, you will NOT commit adultery, which is what swinging is. This here ends this ridiculous debate. The people who are for Christians swinging, have no Biblical grounds upon which to base their stance, therefore their stance is rejected as it is false teaching.

Thus, we are left to make our own interpretation built on the best available evidence, and, I believe, that swinging, in certain circumstances is acceptible in line with Christ's 2 new commandments to us.
No, we are not left to make our own interpretation. What we are to do is to submit to the will of God every day and it is clear from the commandments, from Jesus' own testimony and the divine revelation from God delivered to us by men like Paul, that adultery is sin, and you commit adultery every time you engage in swinging. This isn't that hard to understand. What you are doing is elevating yourself above God and placing your will above His. Remember the Lord's prayer? Whose will is it that is to be done?
 
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Nadiine

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No chapter and verse where Jesus condemns swinging either.
Jesus also didn't condemn child molestation directly - or rape,
or incest or inappropriate behavior with animals.... or prostitution.......???

His moral law from the OT covers it becuz it hasn't change any &
is still in full effect.
He expected the people to know the moral laws on sexual
conduct; they already lived by them & knew them well.

Paul reiterates the generalities of the moral laws 3 times in
1 Cor 6:9-11, 1 Tim 1:8-11 & Galations 5 (among a few others in Eph.)

Adultery covers the sin of this topic directly & He did
condemn adultery as Zec & others mention.
 
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god's_pawn

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Bear with me here... I believe, sincerely, that the way to obey #1 is by obeying #2 to the best of our ability. And yes, I am sure there IS a degree of self love in swinging... but there would also have to be openness and sharing with your spouse, right? And isn't that love of others? I don't thing things are necesarily bad JUST because they make someone happy (love of self) are they? I still contend things are only bad if they harm others, without consent.

i disagree with your opinion about the commandments. there are certain things we do that don't affect others they are only appreciated by God. these come first since God is to come first. I think Jesus would have made it clear if #2 really was #1 as you are essentially saying. Yes it is important to love others first, but if we are loving God at the same time. yes we should open and sharing with our spouse, but we're talking about swingers not spouses. swingers involve sexual activity outside of the marriage which i think is clearly spelled out as wrong in the Bible. you seem to be continually ignoring what God may be thinking by always looking to people's opinions. God is a person of His own and if He is against something then even a unanimous affirming vote of all humanity will not overthrow God's possition and therefore whether or not something is a sin. take God's opinion first, people are another matter entirely.

I appreciate your acknowledgement of this.

yes, i have found people will pay more attention to what i am saying if i admit where i'm wrong. i have found that even atheist appreciate debating with me. i just wish more people, particularly Christians would do the same.

You are welcome to "play it as safe" as you see fit, of course. But please please understand I don't think consent is a loophole, I think its a BENCHMARK!

i think i'm more following my conscience than i am "playing it safe" as you put it, but it doesn't really matter. you can call it a bench mark if you like, but based on what i know from the Bible, i would have to disagree.
 
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god's_pawn

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His moral law from the OT covers it becuz it hasn't change any & is still in full effect. He expected the people to know the moral laws on sexual conduct; they already lived by them & knew them well.

i think you're wrong on this one. remember we don't have to go by the OT law anymore. the ten commandments we should still follow, but otherwise we are free from the law since that is not what saves us. ultimately this is the place for the "all things are permissible, but not all things are helpfull" verse to come in. swinging helps nothing but satisfy carnal desires and thus isn't helpful at all. plus, it easily becomes harmful to our bodies which, according to NT advice, is a bad thing so we shouldn't do.
 
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Nadiine

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i think you're wrong on this one. remember we don't have to go by the OT law anymore. the ten commandments we should still follow, but otherwise we are free from the law since that is not what saves us. ultimately this is the place for the "all things are permissible, but not all things are helpfull" verse to come in. swinging helps nothing but satisfy carnal desires and thus isn't helpful at all. plus, it easily becomes harmful to our bodies which, according to NT advice, is a bad thing so we shouldn't do.
K, no offense, but you've basically refuted your own point.

If we aren't under the OT moral laws, then the 10 commands from the OT Law (which are all moral laws except the Sabbath law which is ceremonial/religious) we aren't under either.

Which moral law is overturned today?
& Paul's statement about "all things are permissible" is towards
Christian liberties not listed or specified as "SIN" in scripture.

Otherwise, we can say this: Murder is permissible.
Murder isn't permissible - neither is rape, sodomy, incest,
molestation, physical violence, kidnapping, adultery & many other
obvious sins.

The OT moral commands are reiterated into the NT - they carry over & continue.
=0)

I gave a set of passages that relay them. more are in Eph.
in honoring mother & fathers as well as several others.

:)
 
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god's_pawn

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K, no offense, but you've basically refuted your own point.

If we aren't under the OT moral laws, then the 10 commands from the OT Law (which are all moral laws except the Sabbath law which is ceremonial/religious) we aren't under either.

Which moral law is overturned today?
& Paul's statement about "all things are permissible" is towards
Christian liberties not listed or specified as "SIN" in scripture.

Otherwise, we can say this: Murder is permissible.
Murder isn't permissible - neither is rape, sodomy, incest,
molestation, physical violence, kidnapping, adultery & many other
obvious sins.

The OT moral commands are reiterated into the NT - they carry over & continue.
=0)

I gave a set of passages that relay them. more are in Eph.
in honoring mother & fathers as well as several others.

:)

the ten commandments are not all the OT law. have you ever read Leviticus? there is a whole lot of requirements particularily dietary ones and also there is the whole bit with sacrificing animals. if you were refering to the ten commandments in the first place then i would recommend you refer to them as such since when you say "OT law" people with think "animal sacrifices" and "dietary laws" not the decalogue (another term for the 10 C's)
 
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dayhiker

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Now Nadiine, Jesus did condemn child molestration, rape etc ... Unless you think those things are love. Jesus said we are to love one another. I don't see any way those tings can be love.
Paul also often talked about how we are to love God and people.
Swingers are against adultery just as we are against adultery.
dayhiker

Jesus also didn't condemn child molestation directly - or rape,
or incest or inappropriate behavior with animals.... or prostitution.......???

His moral law from the OT covers it becuz it hasn't change any &
is still in full effect.
He expected the people to know the moral laws on sexual
conduct; they already lived by them & knew them well.

Paul reiterates the generalities of the moral laws 3 times in
1 Cor 6:9-11, 1 Tim 1:8-11 & Galations 5 (among a few others in Eph.)

Adultery covers the sin of this topic directly & He did
condemn adultery as Zec & others mention.
 
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