Staying Orthodox

ArmyMatt

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to answer the OP, while Rome can claim historic ties to the Apostles, she does not have the Faith of the Apostles. both are needed for Apostolic succession, and only the Eastern Orthodox have maintained THAT faith deposited at Pentecost to this day.
 
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CJtheSearcher

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Thank you for the thoughtful replies, especially Joseph Hazen and zdheremi. And dzheremi, I will be the first to admit that I've never exactly studied any Oriental Orthodox theology so I'm quite lost as to what you believe. But anyway, thanks for the insightful replies.

And, without naming you, to those who are basically calling me unstable: when you have two very large Christian bodies who have been separated from one another for centuries and have deep apostolic roots and who are making the same exact claims to being the one true church and you USED to be a member of one of those churches and by being separated from said church are basically said to be in schism by that church...... then yeah, I'm gonna be a TAD bit unstable. And you know what? Being called unstable is exactly why I usually prefer to keep these things to myself and work through them by myself.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I don't think you are unstable dude, and I don't think anyone here thinks that. I think it's more people are looking out so you don't start ping ponging back and forth, and stuff is getting lost in the shuffle.
 
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CJtheSearcher

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I don't think you are unstable dude, and I don't think anyone here thinks that. I think it's more people are looking out so you don't start ping ponging back and forth, and stuff is getting lost in the shuffle.

If that be the case, I truly am grateful for the care and support. Perhaps I did misread some posts and THOUGHT people were calling me unstable. In any case, Lord have mercy.
 
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CJtheSearcher

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To answer the OP, I remain Orthodox because I believe with all my heart that it is the Truth.

I appreciate the way the struggle to obey the Gospel is taught and applied to each one of us as needed. The analogy of the Church as Hospital, the Holy Mysteries as medicine, the prayers and fasting as our daily health - that really resonates with me in a way that other, more legalistic ways never could. The goal of our life in Christ is Communion with Him - nothing less!

Mary

Mary, how did I miss this small but beautiful post? :) Thank you!
 
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E.C.

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CJ,

The Orthodox Church is a hospital for the soul and a place where souls are healed and whomever goes to heaven in the afterlife is between the soul and God regardless of being Orthodox or not. Plain and simple.
The Roman Catholic Church puts a pope, purgatory, the requirement of being Catholic and limbo between the soul and heaven. Everyone else gets front row seats at Lucifer's BBQ.
 
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MilesVitae

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Milesvitae, that was a response to childofmary, be sure to thoroughly read all posts in consecutive order before responding

Greg, I had read the posts and understood that you were addressing childofMary. I don't think I missed anything relevant, unless something had been deleted or edited. I only wanted to point out that his words could, possibly, be interpreted in a better sense than it seems they were taken.
 
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seashale76

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I've never been Catholic, but half of my family is. I simply never felt the pull towards Catholicism, and the difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is startling when you've attended services for both. Then there are certain Catholic doctrines I never could accept- that just don't exist in Orthodoxy. For me, the decision was easy. And after attending my cousin's daughter's baptism not so long ago, I was horrified at how much of a departure it was from what it should have been. In fact, I've been to Episcopal churches more Catholic than many of the Catholic services I've been to.
 
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ArmyMatt

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If that be the case, I truly am grateful for the care and support. Perhaps I did misread some posts and THOUGHT people were calling me unstable. In any case, Lord have mercy.

you're good dude, tis easy for all of us to not read stuff that was intended. been guilty of that myself many 'a' time.

Lord have mercy indeed!
 
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jckstraw72

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To at least give him the benefit of a doubt, I would keep in mind that he said the same of asking such a question in the Catholic forum.

i took notice of that and therefore i didn't find his post offensive in any way.
 
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dzheremi

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For me, it's a matter of not only apostolic roots (which the major churches have - Catholic, EO, OO, and even the Nestorians via Mar Addai, which is the Syriac name of St. Thaddeus, one of the 70), but of resources. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are a lot of things that seem to be missing from modern RCism as it is practiced, and I know that when I left the RCC my feeling was not "Oh goodness! What a false church I was enticed by!" or anything like that, but "I have gone as far as I can go in this church; I can either stay and starve to death, or leave and try to find some place that is healthier for me." Without all of these things to connect the believer to their faith, the believer is thus impoverished. Often what has replaced these things are various things that, at least from my perspective, are spiritually unhealthy ("sacred heart" theology, various visions/apparitions and esoteric messages based on them, etc.). These are, because of the time that has passed since the abandonment of the original, apostolic faith once practiced by the RCC, taken by most modern RCs to be Catholicism itself. What was there before is forgotten in favor of later developments.

For example, take a listen and look at the Mozarabic rite hymnody, chanted here by Ensemble Organum from the 15th century reconstruction of Fr. Cisneros, who reconstructed the liturgy at that time after it had been suppressed for several centuries in Spain in favor of the imposed Latin rite. (This process of suppression led to the famous "Trial by fire" whereby the Mozarab liturgy book was thrown into the fire, together with the Latin rite liturgy book; the latter burned, but the former would not.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqiCs3oL3yg

The art in the above video is also Spanish/Western, of the Romanesque period (10th-13th century or so). Does this hymn and artwork seem more in keeping to everyone here with modern RC spirituality, or Orthodox spirituality? I know my answer, and this is emphatically not an East/West thing (heck, I am a Westerner, too) -- this is entirely within the history and tradition of the RCC. But again, they have abandoned it in favor of other things, much to the detriment of their people and church. And if you ask them (as I have) why they do not have that, they say it is monastic spirituality and so unfair to compare it to the everyday life of an RC parish. Well, why? Why is that? Had these ways of being Catholic not been replaced by later developments, there would not be such a division to be invoked in order to protect the RCC from claims that it has wandered away from the faith. In my own experience in visiting a Benedictine monastery on the Oregon coast before leaving the RCC, I loved it, but it kind of made me mad at the same time. I asked my priest, a Dominican, why it is so hard to find this sort of thing. He replied that "it's out there (traditional, serious Catholic spirituality), but you do have to dig for it in the modern world". Well, why should that be? It shouldn't be. But it is. And the fact that it is speaks volumes, to me.

While I meant that as only an example, it should be said at the same time that some are trying to bring this particular form back. It's good to see, but bad that they should have to, you know?

Praelegendum de la Misa Mozarabe (UBI SUNT?) - YouTube

Long story short, if you don't abandon things in the first place, you won't have to try to recover them later. It's much more difficult later on after centuries of this other stuff being fed to you in place of your authentic tradition(s). I have several Maronite Catholic friends for whom this point is a constant thorn in their sides, sadly.

With this in mind, I have to be honest and say that I cannot see the pull of Catholicism. It seems as though there would be a lot for an Orthodox person to give up in the process, even as I know that the RCC and its people claim that the Eastern Catholic Churches are there to preserve the Orthodox patrimony in all ways, but with communion with the "Chair of Peter". Even disregarding the ecclesiological and historical problems with this claim (e.g., the founding of Antioch by St. Peter as well), that is simply not the case in reality. Witness the differences, for instance, between a Maronite liturgy (the Maronites being West Syriac Christians, by tradition) and a Syriac Orthodox liturgy (also West Syriac).

Maronite Easter liturgy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TASjGW5YD9A

Syriac Orthodox liturgy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFBpORLFnHI

This may or may not be more of a problem for EO switching to their corresponding Catholic church (most of the Eastern Catholic churches are Byzantine, anyway), but my own experience with the Ruthenians tells me that it's something of a gamble there, too. When I visited them, they didn't have an organ or anything, but they also didn't really have a choir, they said the Creed with the filioque included, and didn't really chant the liturgy (which might have been why it was only about an hour). It was very underwhelming, and I can't help but think that it speaks to a certain decline in their traditional spirituality that the people were not up in arms about this, but seemed to think it was normal. I noticed all this stuff on my first visit, and I am not now and have never been Byzantine or any kind of Slavic person.

I know personal anecdotes and YouTube videos can't stand for anything in place of going and seeing yourself, but I would consider the unevenness with which even Eastern Catholics approach their faith to be another strike against this idea that you can even somehow be in communion with a spirituality-impoverished Church like Rome and not have it affect you (this whole "Orthodox in Union with Rome" idea that seems to live on the internet and nowhere else; it's a compromise that satisfies nobody).

Why abandon what you have on the off chance that you might luck out and get a good parish, where the priest knows what he's doing/the historical norms, doesn't put up with Latinizing nonsense, etc. How many of those priests even are there, and why should things be left up to chance like that? It just doesn't make sense to me.

If you take communion as being a sign of shared faith, then you are signing up for every problem that Rome has. In the modern day, those are many (as can be said about all churches, I guess), but more importantly Rome doesn't seem to be serious about doing anything about them, because doing in a real, permanent way would mean going back centuries...and again, they just don't have the structure overall in the same shape as it once was to even be able to do that. They're too degraded after 1400 or 1000 years (depending on what communion you're in :)) of doing other things. Lord have mercy.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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If you take communion as being a sign of shared faith, then you are signing up for every problem that Rome has.

This is the money quote from your very fine post. "Orthodoxy in communion with Rome" is an oxymoron because Rome is not Orthodox. However "orthodox" an Eastern Catholic parish may seem, it nonetheless suffers from having to embrace fully all the errors of Rome: Papal supremacy, universal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, purgatory, indulgences, the Immaculate Conception, etc. None of these dogma shares support of the consensus of the Fathers and thus none is Orthodox. Eastern Catholics, for all their seemingly Orthodox appearances, are obliged to embrace them. That must be uncomfortable. I certainly couldn't stand that cognitive dissonance.

Why would one settle for less than Orthodoxy?
 
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CJtheSearcher

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dzheremi, your post was absolutely AMAZING, and what I've been hoping for on this thread. You give so me (and anyone else reading) a lot to 'chew on'.

If I can somewhat add to this...when I was still RC I found it amazing (in a bad way) that I always had to travel and search really hard to find a decent Latin rite parish. Most parishes in my general vicinity are what you might refer to as 'Vatican II' parishes (not to make this a thread about bashing VII!). Bare walls, an 'altar' that looks more like a table from Home Depot, an ugly liturgy, etc. I kept wondering why serious spirituality wasn't being practiced, though the RCC has such a long and storied spiritual tradition. I still don't have an answer to that question.

So I have to say, when I became Orthodox, I didn't have to worry about these things anymore. I knew on any given Sunday, if I was traveling or whatnot and went to any Orthodox church, I was going to SERIOUSLY worship.
 
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CJ,

I get what you're going through. I don't like the imagery of an adulterer between marriages I've read in here. But people are certainly entitled to that analogy. It's more complicated than that. Currently I'm in a stage of my life where I've been badly, badly burned in Orthodoxy on multiple occasions. I don't blame all of Orthodoxy, but I've been Orthodox for 5 years and all 5 of them I've spent wondering if I did the right thing and if this is right for me, and going through spiritual peaks and valleys that have just plain SUCKED. I've never felt good enough, committed enough, or worthy of anything. And my clergy have reinforced that I'm a loser of an Orthodox Christian. My godfather, our deacon, has gone out of his way to remind me of what a failure I am and has done so multiple times. I can't win. And Orthodoxy is HORRIBLY inaccessible around here. I struggle with some Roman ideas for sure, but have always felt a pull toward the religion of my childhood. Historically there is strong evidence imho for both Catholic and Orthodox polity. It's not a simple slam-dunk argument. I've obviously gravitated to the Orthodox polity for years now.

I'm a bit of a lost soul. The whole struggle, journey, path, has left me spiritually parched. The people here in TAW are just plain good folks. They're patient and kind, thoughtful and BRIGHT. Listen to them. But also listen to Catholics and the other side and pray, pray, pray to discern. Take your time, ask God's help. Listen to everyone. Don't let your feelings take over too much. Try to stay objective. It's HARD.

I'm a sojourner right now who feels like he's a bit homeless...a stranger in a strange land. We all need prayers.

Hang in there and may God bless you!

dzheremi, your post was absolutely AMAZING, and what I've been hoping for on this thread. You give so me (and anyone else reading) a lot to 'chew on'.

If I can somewhat add to this...when I was still RC I found it amazing (in a bad way) that I always had to travel and search really hard to find a decent Latin rite parish. Most parishes in my general vicinity are what you might refer to as 'Vatican II' parishes (not to make this a thread about bashing VII!). Bare walls, an 'altar' that looks more like a table from Home Depot, an ugly liturgy, etc. I kept wondering why serious spirituality wasn't being practiced, though the RCC has such a long and storied spiritual tradition. I still don't have an answer to that question.

So I have to say, when I became Orthodox, I didn't have to worry about these things anymore. I knew on any given Sunday, if I was traveling or whatnot and went to any Orthodox church, I was going to SERIOUSLY worship.
 
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CJtheSearcher

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CJ,

I get what you're going through. I don't like the imagery of an adulterer between marriages I've read in here. But people are certainly entitled to that analogy. It's more complicated than that. Currently I'm in a stage of my life where I've been badly, badly burned in Orthodoxy on multiple occasions. I don't blame all of Orthodoxy, but I've been Orthodox for 5 years and all 5 of them I've spent wondering if I did the right thing and if this is right for me, and going through spiritual peaks and valleys that have just plain SUCKED. I've never felt good enough, committed enough, or worthy of anything. And my clergy have reinforced that I'm a loser of an Orthodox Christian. My godfather, our deacon, has gone out of his way to remind me of what a failure I am and has done so multiple times. I can't win. And Orthodoxy is HORRIBLY inaccessible around here. I struggle with some Roman ideas for sure, but have always felt a pull toward the religion of my childhood. Historically there is strong evidence imho for both Catholic and Orthodox polity. It's not a simple slam-dunk argument. I've obviously gravitated to the Orthodox polity for years now.

I'm a bit of a lost soul. The whole struggle, journey, path, has left me spiritually parched. The people here in TAW are just plain good folks. They're patient and kind, thoughtful and BRIGHT. Listen to them. But also listen to Catholics and the other side and pray, pray, pray to discern. Take your time, ask God's help. Listen to everyone. Don't let your feelings take over too much. Try to stay objective. It's HARD.

I'm a sojourner right now who feels like he's a bit homeless...a stranger in a strange land. We all need prayers.

Hang in there and may God bless you!

Thanks for the great reply. I have read a few threads you have put up so I know somewhat of your struggle and what you are going through. Though, I have to say that so far I've been blessed to know only utterly fantastic Orthodox clergy (my past and present parish priests especially).

What brought YOU into the Orthodox Church, if I may ask? I'm especially interested since you are a former RC like myself. :)
 
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I PM'd ya. Answered your questions there. I'm VERY happy to hear you've had fantastic clergy! I've heard as much from so many good folks on here at TAW. The priest and deacon I had were horrendous, my priest's friend in a nearby town was AWFUL and hurtful and insulting to me, and the Greek priest friend of my priest is a crony of there's. He's a bit pushy and gruff. I know some other Orthodox clergy online who are funky.

I'm glad you've had awesome experiences!!!

Thanks for the great reply. I have read a few threads you have put up so I know somewhat of your struggle and what you are going through. Though, I have to say that so far I've been blessed to know only utterly fantastic Orthodox clergy (my past and present parish priests especially).

What brought YOU into the Orthodox Church, if I may ask? I'm especially interested since you are a former RC like myself. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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Such an interesting post to me, on so many counts. But I must say, you've answered one question I had. Upon becoming serious about faith as an adult, my first exposure was through books, and a good many from Catholic monastics in the early part of the last millennium. Yet I find Orthodox spirituality to be where I have finally been led, after a good bit of wandering. I found that ironic, but your post helps make sense of it for me, since what I read DID resound within me, but I rarely found it among Catholics. There are exceptions, but generally they have been connected with hidden-away monastic orders.

Very interesting.

And I do very much like that you said you'd gotten all you could within a particular type of faith tradition. That's how I feel about my changes. I did have some issues to work through about being mis-taught, but largely I DID get benefit of some kind from every part of my journey. They just never encompassed it ALL the way Orthodoxy does for me (as well as so much more!).

And I'd never heard of the "trial by fire" - interesting.

Just wanted to thank you.

I've been appreciating a number of posts in this thread, and wanted to "me too!" much of what was said. :)


For me, it's a matter of not only apostolic roots (which the major churches have - Catholic, EO, OO, and even the Nestorians via Mar Addai, which is the Syriac name of St. Thaddeus, one of the 70), but of resources. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are a lot of things that seem to be missing from modern RCism as it is practiced, and I know that when I left the RCC my feeling was not "Oh goodness! What a false church I was enticed by!" or anything like that, but "I have gone as far as I can go in this church; I can either stay and starve to death, or leave and try to find some place that is healthier for me." Without all of these things to connect the believer to their faith, the believer is thus impoverished. Often what has replaced these things are various things that, at least from my perspective, are spiritually unhealthy ("sacred heart" theology, various visions/apparitions and esoteric messages based on them, etc.). These are, because of the time that has passed since the abandonment of the original, apostolic faith once practiced by the RCC, taken by most modern RCs to be Catholicism itself. What was there before is forgotten in favor of later developments.

For example, take a listen and look at the Mozarabic rite hymnody, chanted here by Ensemble Organum from the 15th century reconstruction of Fr. Cisneros, who reconstructed the liturgy at that time after it had been suppressed for several centuries in Spain in favor of the imposed Latin rite. (This process of suppression led to the famous "Trial by fire" whereby the Mozarab liturgy book was thrown into the fire, together with the Latin rite liturgy book; the latter burned, but the former would not.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqiCs3oL3yg

The art in the above video is also Spanish/Western, of the Romanesque period (10th-13th century or so). Does this hymn and artwork seem more in keeping to everyone here with modern RC spirituality, or Orthodox spirituality? I know my answer, and this is emphatically not an East/West thing (heck, I am a Westerner, too) -- this is entirely within the history and tradition of the RCC. But again, they have abandoned it in favor of other things, much to the detriment of their people and church. And if you ask them (as I have) why they do not have that, they say it is monastic spirituality and so unfair to compare it to the everyday life of an RC parish. Well, why? Why is that? Had these ways of being Catholic not been replaced by later developments, there would not be such a division to be invoked in order to protect the RCC from claims that it has wandered away from the faith. In my own experience in visiting a Benedictine monastery on the Oregon coast before leaving the RCC, I loved it, but it kind of made me mad at the same time. I asked my priest, a Dominican, why it is so hard to find this sort of thing. He replied that "it's out there (traditional, serious Catholic spirituality), but you do have to dig for it in the modern world". Well, why should that be? It shouldn't be. But it is. And the fact that it is speaks volumes, to me.

While I meant that as only an example, it should be said at the same time that some are trying to bring this particular form back. It's good to see, but bad that they should have to, you know?

Praelegendum de la Misa Mozarabe (UBI SUNT?) - YouTube

Long story short, if you don't abandon things in the first place, you won't have to try to recover them later. It's much more difficult later on after centuries of this other stuff being fed to you in place of your authentic tradition(s). I have several Maronite Catholic friends for whom this point is a constant thorn in their sides, sadly.

With this in mind, I have to be honest and say that I cannot see the pull of Catholicism. It seems as though there would be a lot for an Orthodox person to give up in the process, even as I know that the RCC and its people claim that the Eastern Catholic Churches are there to preserve the Orthodox patrimony in all ways, but with communion with the "Chair of Peter". Even disregarding the ecclesiological and historical problems with this claim (e.g., the founding of Antioch by St. Peter as well), that is simply not the case in reality. Witness the differences, for instance, between a Maronite liturgy (the Maronites being West Syriac Christians, by tradition) and a Syriac Orthodox liturgy (also West Syriac).

Maronite Easter liturgy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TASjGW5YD9A

Syriac Orthodox liturgy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFBpORLFnHI

This may or may not be more of a problem for EO switching to their corresponding Catholic church (most of the Eastern Catholic churches are Byzantine, anyway), but my own experience with the Ruthenians tells me that it's something of a gamble there, too. When I visited them, they didn't have an organ or anything, but they also didn't really have a choir, they said the Creed with the filioque included, and didn't really chant the liturgy (which might have been why it was only about an hour). It was very underwhelming, and I can't help but think that it speaks to a certain decline in their traditional spirituality that the people were not up in arms about this, but seemed to think it was normal. I noticed all this stuff on my first visit, and I am not now and have never been Byzantine or any kind of Slavic person.

I know personal anecdotes and YouTube videos can't stand for anything in place of going and seeing yourself, but I would consider the unevenness with which even Eastern Catholics approach their faith to be another strike against this idea that you can even somehow be in communion with a spirituality-impoverished Church like Rome and not have it affect you (this whole "Orthodox in Union with Rome" idea that seems to live on the internet and nowhere else; it's a compromise that satisfies nobody).

Why abandon what you have on the off chance that you might luck out and get a good parish, where the priest knows what he's doing/the historical norms, doesn't put up with Latinizing nonsense, etc. How many of those priests even are there, and why should things be left up to chance like that? It just doesn't make sense to me.

If you take communion as being a sign of shared faith, then you are signing up for every problem that Rome has. In the modern day, those are many (as can be said about all churches, I guess), but more importantly Rome doesn't seem to be serious about doing anything about them, because doing in a real, permanent way would mean going back centuries...and again, they just don't have the structure overall in the same shape as it once was to even be able to do that. They're too degraded after 1400 or 1000 years (depending on what communion you're in :)) of doing other things. Lord have mercy.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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The priest and deacon I had were horrendous, my priest's friend in a nearby town was AWFUL and hurtful and insulting to me, and the Greek priest friend of my priest is a crony of there's. He's a bit pushy and gruff.

And my clergy have reinforced that I'm a loser of an Orthodox Christian. My godfather, our deacon, has gone out of his way to remind me of what a failure I am and has done so multiple times.

Gurney, my friend, you need to stop.

Just stop.

I understand that you have been hurt. But your using every opportunity you can for your very public campaign to denigrate your priest and deacon has got to stop. It takes approximately 15 seconds of Google time to identify the Serbian Orthodox priest and deacon in Fresno about whom you wax so negatively and obsessively.

You are hurting the souls of dear people: yours, first, but also those who read your posts that manifest such incessant flagellation. You are gossipping and refusing to forgive those who have wronged you, and those of us who read your excoriations are complicit. I am participating in your gossip by reading your denigrating posts and I too am thus at fault. Lord have mercy.

If Christ taught us anything at all, surely it was to love our enemies and to bless those who persecute us.

I am not underestimating the hurt you feel or the sympathy you deserve; I feel great empathy for you. I am simply saying that you need not drag your former priest and deacon constantly into the conversation.

In. Every. Thread.

Stop.

Close this chapter. Open the next one.

Move on.

Forgive.

Become Eastern Catholic. Or whatever you want. But stop this.

Please.
 
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