Spanking.....

[ValleyGal]

What's your solution to this ValleyGal?

Try building a trusting relationship. My suspicion is that mom has been too busy trying to figure out her own life to be really and truly "present" in meeting her daughter's needs - I'm not just talking about basic needs, I am talking about her needs for trust, security, safety, and solid, respectful relationships. We teach our parents that it's never too late to start; however, for those who have been operating in a certain dynamic for a long time (this girl is in her teens, old enough to drive a car), it will be very hard to change that pattern and establish a new attachment style.

I can empathize with your friend - my son's father was absent his whole life, and I raised him alone. It's hard to juggle work, home, taking care of finances, bills, the idea of dating, children, their school and extracurricular activities, appointments, etc. I've been there. In addition, some children have very challenging temperaments, etc. Believe me, I get it. But attunement and attachment can absolutely happen even with all that other stuff going on. And no parent is perfect - but "just good" is good enough, and it's never too late for your friend. The relationship needs to be repaired, and that starts with your friend meeting her daughter's needs.

 

[ValleyGal]

Try being in tune when the child is a teen and got their eyes on
their love interest...most of them up to no good.

You can be in tune with little ones but when they get older and
start mixing with others their age...Lord help us when they fall
in love with a rough neck!

By the time they are this age, you can't spank 'em anyways! And yes, attunement works with teens. It changes as teens start individuating, but believe me, when the relationship is in good stead, the teen will trust the parent-s and will still value their influence.

 

[Kit Sigmon]

They did had a good relationship, trust and all that...they
were tight until that boy turned her head with his talk and nice
gifts.
Her mom offered her proof the boy is no good and she don't accept it,
she say it's one thing and her mom say it's another. No agreement.


She and her mom still talk and stuff about female things and such but the girl don't mind when it
comes to this boy.
She's not his only girlfriend, the mom try to explain that but the girl believes
what the boy says, he says she's the only one that matter and that he will take care of her better
than anyone else. Then he got her that car and she was sold on him.
The boyfriend keeps the car at his dad's place.
The boyfriend's dad is cool with them being together and is helping them because he
say young people need to experience things for themselves. I don't trust him and neither does my
friend.
How can her mom win against all that?
Her mom is paying a mortgage and the rest of the regular monthly utilities.
I know she's blessed to have a full time job that pays her a good salary and all that.
We all be praying...we thankful the girl isn't pregnant...she say she's not sexual with
the boyfriend...it's hard to believe that when she's so gone on this boy like she is.

Her mom don't even date because she wanted to be there for her daughter and help
her through these teen years when things get so complicated, hormones go crazy and all that.
Her mom was really hurt when her husband took off with another woman back when
their daughter was about 3 years old. She worked through so much stuff and was able to
give them a stable life and a decent place to live. The neighborhood isn't so great but you
can walk to the corner store without getting mugged.

I know they have had counseling in the past, the mom talked that stuff you're saying about meeting her
needs and all that. She loves her, attends the school games with her daughter and had
a good relationship, well they did until the boyfriend entered the picture.
Maybe she see him as a father figure? I don't know, I've heard that happens when no dad is in
the picture.

Her mom don't have the money to provide the girl with the things she really wanted
like the car, name brand clothes and the cellphone. Like me, we can only afford Walmart.
The girl talked about wanting those things a lot of the time. I let her use my desktop computer
whenever she wanted to, ended up giving it to her when I got a laptop.
I use to let the girl drive my car for practice, she's learned real quick and then she stopped
coming over for lessons. Then a couple of weeks ago she came up in that car, she said her boyfriend
bought it for her, she and him were all smiles. He bragged about not letting her his girl ride around
in no hooptie.

The daughter wants name brand clothes, her boyfriend get that for her. She want to look
nice and all, like other girls at school do. It's not like her mom dressed her in hand me down,
her stuff came from Walmart. She looked nice but she wanted those Silver jeans, blouses by FreePeople and UGGS.
My friend's pockets ain't that deep and jobs around here are few and far between... so when you got a job, you
work it.

I just be there for them both, whenever they need me...lately her mom has been bending my ear lots.
She's scared for her daughter. Who can blame her?

Sorry to go on like this but this type of stuff goes on so much around here.

As for the spanking issue... I got spanked twice in my life and both times
it was done by my mom. I didn't hate on her or nothing. I wasn't scared of
her hands, those same hands braided my hair, dried my tears, bathed me, washed my clothes
and fixed my meals, held my hands during prayer time.
I know mom loved me and wanted me to mind.
She raised us with rules from day one. We were told what the punishment
would be and our mom stuck to her word. She would repeat all this when
one of us broke them rules.
Needless to say we didn't need too many reminders.

 

[smaneck]

delete.

Didn't notice it was Christian only.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Pretty good responses so far. Although as I figured the ones that are against it were abused usually. Or spanked on an extreme level. And some that are for it were spanked sparingly and as a last resort, they are for it when used sparingly. My biggest concern is even if I only give my future child one spank, its all thats needed if someone finds out I did it and they could turn me in. Granted the state has to have evidence of actual abuse. A spanking will not be considered abuse unless it was violent like it caused swelling, bruises and what not. Usually when I was spanked my pants came down a little to show my butt and a paddle was used. Just once, not super hard or anything.

The paddle was used as a tool. If I was REALLY being bad my dad would bring it out and ask if I wanted a spanking. I quickly behaved lol.

 

[JAM2b]

One thing I find that some people have a hard time understanding that it is possible to discipline without punishment. Discipline and punishment are not the same things.

Discipline teaches, trains, encourages, guides, redirects, focuses.

Punishment by very nature is punitive and is a form of revenge. Something bad was done, so now the person has to pay for it. The punishment in and of itself does not teach, and occurs whether there is teaching of correct behavior or not. It does not have the expectation that there are chances to try, practice, build good habits, and become a better person. It is a simple, contained reaction to an action.

I'm not saying all punishment is wrong. But I am saying it is very worth while to seek out other options first. I do a lot of talking to my kids. I do a lot of prevention and try to be proactive. I don't just tell them what they should or should not do, I tell them why. I also tend to not tell them they can't do something without telling them what they can do instead. I tell them why an alternative is better. I'd rather do a lot of teaching and guiding on the front end, than deal with deciding what to do about something after they have made a bad choice.

 

[ValleyGal]

JAM, you make some great points. Punitive measures break the relationship, while corrective measures restore and maintain the relationship. Teaching, guiding, correcting - they help to develop a child's character and conscience, enabling a child to grow up being able to make good choices and with confidence. Punitive measures like spanking will teach a child to obey out of fear; rather than obey because they know right from wrong, they obey for fear of getting caught, fear of punishment, fear of the person doing the punishing.

NiI, I was spanked with a wooden spoon as a child, but not beaten. I am not against spanking due to my childhood; I am against spanking because of programs like the one I teach. I attended a similar program when my son was young (it was about natural and logical consequences, though, so not really the same as what I teach now), and learned that children can be raised without spanking. Back then, I was taught spanking as a very last resort, and I spanked my son twice in his life. In hindsight, there were other ways I could have handled both those situations.

Here is an interesting idea. Go and watch a dog trainer in action. They do not spank the dogs. Ever. Instead, they train them. If we can do this with dogs, then why can't we do it with children> It's a sad state of affairs if we can teach and train our pets without hitting them, but yet we feel we can hit our children in order to get them to behave.

 

[Greg J.]

Two goals in raising children should be: make it easy for them to obey God (be Good) and make it easy for them to obey themselves (be self-disciplined). By obeying themselves, I am referring to the degree to which a person has to struggle to do what he or she has chosen to do (oftentimes, needs to do).

Children are not animals. But there is a facet of human nature that is easier to see if we briefly consider dog training. A dog trainer wants to make the dog associate things the trainer wants it to do with something positive, and make the dog have an aversion to the things the trainer wants them to stop doing. When the dog does something the trainer wants, he immediately rewards the dog with a treat and praises the dog. Over time, the dog will perceive the praise much like he was receiving a treat. One approach for associating unwanted behavior with something negative, but is not painful, is for the trainer to turn his back to the dog and ignore it and say something like "no!" This takes advantage of the fact that dogs are social and love the approval of their trainer. The dog will hopefully acquire a negative perception of things he isn't supposed to do, as well as making a "no!" command useful for stopping it from doing something he is about to do. (It is important however that the dog not become afraid of the trainer, because it will become a response to people other than the trainer, as well, and in extreme cases will make the dog have anxiety and/or fear all the time.)

This illustrates an association dynamic that is true of all humans, including adults. It's a lot easier to get oneself to do something when one associates it with good feelings. And it can be nearly impossible to get oneself to do other things when the thought of it brings up a feeling of emptiness or something negative.

Ideally, a person would have a good feeling when anticipating something he or she needs to do, and have a bad feeling when considering doing something immoral. It would make being a good person (and life in general) a lot easier and more enjoyable.

If done properly, spanking is an option for associating something immoral with pain (such as disobedience when the child knows better). This may very well make it easier for a growing child to live in a Godly way and enjoy it as well. It benefits the child in the long run to have an ingrained negative response when considering doing something immoral.

One can conclude from Deuteronomy 21:18-21 that it is very bad to allow a child to be rebellious (for themselves, God, and other people). It would appear that in extreme cases any and all actions a parent might do are permissible if it would work their child away from rebelliousness. However, it makes a huge difference that the community mentioned in Deuteronomy would have supported punishments vs. today, when all a child's friends are rebellious to some degree and their parents may be doing little about it. Nonetheless, it is clear that disobedience (rebelliousness) cannot be tolerated.

Failing to discipline a child when appropriate will have the effect of making his life worse in the future. It makes it a lot easier to understand what "hate" refers to in: He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him. (Proverbs 13:24, 1984 NIV)

You might consider (re)reading blackribbon's post above for one approach to child discipline based on good principles.

 

[Cernunnos]

I don't approve of it, but my opinion doesn't make it abuse.

My children are not perfect, but their behavior is outlandishly good, their achievements are high, teachers marvel at what good students they are. The technique we use is called "peaceful attachment parenting" and it involves no spanking, but rather reasoning from an early age. Treating and talking to children as if they are people, helps them practice being people rather than livestock. I think children are people & I demonstrate that by not striking them.

My personal policy on violence is, to avoid using it if at all possible & if it is necessary, it is probably something worth killing over . . . hard to imagine a child doing something that would require that level of violence. . . so, in situations where spanking is the first thing to come to mind (temper) , I rather think about what other tools are available to promote a desirable outcome (temperance).

 

[Dave-W]

Discipline teaches, trains, encourages, guides, redirects, focuses.
Punishment by very nature is punitive and is a form of revenge.

I get that, but there are some lessons that can only be learned thru punishment.

 

[ValleyGal]

I get that, but there are some lessons that can only be learned thru punishment.

Like what>

 

[Mudinyeri]

Argh! Don't get me started on treat training of dogs. Much like a child, a dog with a positive relationship with its master (trainer) should not need treats to do its job (obey its master). The do will do what the master wants because it wants to please the master. Using treats supplants this relationship and "ruins" a dog ... and a child, in my opinion.

 

[ValleyGal]

I "treat-train" my pup just as a teaching tool. Now pup obeys some commands without treats, and I do not use them anymore for those commands.

Children do not need "treat-training" but they do need lots of encouragement and praise. Like Mud says, they want to please us, they want to do what's right, but they need to be taught how.

 

[Mudinyeri]

I "treat-train" my pup just as a teaching tool. Now pup obeys some commands without treats, and I do not use them anymore for those commands.

I've worked with champion field trials dog trainers. Treat training ruins the dogs. The treats become the master instead of the trainer/owner. My own dogs have all been trained without treats. Most people can't believe how well-behaved they are or the things that they will do. But I digress ....

The same principles work with children but the proper bond must be in place - literally from birth - for it to work well.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Very interesting, but not surprised the thread turned into everyone arguing trying to convince someone else their view is right and vica versa. I really doubt anyone will switch their views on it.

Though it is a good subject to talk about since often times people only think of spanking in black and white instead of there being a grey area which is acceptable.

I should note after reading comments I did ask my wife again about spanking. Mentioned various scenarios like spanking every day, spanking in anger....etc and she agreed that for one, she will spank regardless of people may turn us in. And two we will use spanking as a very last resort. As in just like me as a child, it will rarely have to be done. I think I was spanked maybe a dozen times as a child. And just one swat. Nothing more, nothing less.

Though in my wifes culture they tend to pinch your skin instead of spanking. Not like so it leaves mark. Sort of like you lightly pinch it between two fingers and twist it just a little bit. Which I'm not to sure I like. Seems a bit more harsh, at least with spanking you can control how soft the swat is.

 

[Y'shuah Yeshiva]

So what are your views on it. Its REALLY hard for me to talk to couples about this issue because often I find if someone was abused as a child they think spanking is abuse. Even if they were just spanked, they tend to say their parents used a belt or something more painful, which I do get can be bad. So they get annoyed when I bring up spanking. To me spanking is something that should be saved for those REALLY rare moments when its called for. Like if you are spanking your child daily, I do think it borders on abuse. Where as if you only have to spank them a few times a year, I think its ok.

I was spanked and turned out good. And likewise in very bad situation where something has to be done I will spank my child. Sadly though if your american its now against the law to spank. Which I think is why the youth today are even worse then when I grew up. Sure, all generations have youth that do bad things. But I never remember kids hitting their parents, screaming obscenities at them, throwing and destroying their stuff. Maybe a few did, but not as many as today.

Obviously there are other things that add to it like the media they see today. But overall I am for spanking as a last resort. What about you? Also do you believe some think its bad because of their childhood? I'd think if your on this forum then you are a christian so obviously it spanking wasn't to bad or you'd turn from your ways (just an assumption of course).

Spanking should be used for children, when they grow up and mature, grounding and taking away valuables would be effective.

 

[ValleyGal]

NiI, this is the advice forum. I thought you were looking for advice. The best advice I can give is summed up by saying that if you have the proper attunement and attachment with your children, you will never need to spank. But now you state that no one is going to change anyone's mind. That leads me to wonder why you posted in the advice forum to start with, since if your mind won't be changed, you are obviously not looking for advice.

 

[JAM2b]

I get that, but there are some lessons that can only be learned thru punishment.

I'm on the fence about it. I can see both sides of the argument. I used to spank and try different kinds of punishments all the time. The more time goes by, the less I rely on it. It is extremely rare for me to punish my kids now. I don't think it is necessarily wrong. It's just not my preferred method anymore.

 

[JAM2b]

Very interesting, but not surprised the thread turned into everyone arguing trying to convince someone else their view is right and vica versa. I really doubt anyone will switch their views on it.

This section is for advice. People are going to give the advice they think is best, and argue for it because they are going to want you to do what they think is good and explain why. It's not so much of a debate as it is an exchange of ideas and support of a course of action each one deems appropriate.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Spanking works for some children and parents, some not. I don't pass judgement on it. I dont do it myself as I never felt comfortable with it. My parents didn't spank us either and we turned out fine. Some parents do spank their kids and the kids seem to turn out the same way in my circle as the unspanked ones. Still teenage hormones that are gone through, still rebellion, still good kids.

It's not illegal. Schools are just required to report everything for investigation anymore. Even if an investigation is done, a non-abusive spanking should not be found illegal or cause the kids to be removed.