Six Reasons Why Mormons Are Beating Baptists In Church Growth

[Ran77]

Baptists are not failing.

Right. Because in the religion business, people deciding to not attend any church is a sign of success.

 

[Ran77]

You all reject the gospel. So the next step is showing that your religion is false. However, I've never been a member of a church that preached against Mormonism.

I forgot to point out that this is covered in the article.

"My wife used to debate them at the doorstep, but ever since we launched Evangelicals for Mitt, made many new Mormon friends, and began to experience a constant flow of vile hate from a small but dedicated anti-Mormon fringe, we now welcome them into our home, offer them rides in the rain, and generally get to know young people who experience a very, very different young adult rite of passage than your typical evangelical."

 

[2ducklow]

Six Reasons Why Mormons Are Beating Baptists (In Church Growth)

The biggest reason is the church needs revival.

 

[Ran77]

"Young evangelicals have cited six reasons for their leaving church. Within
that context the following statements were made"

I notice that there is no citation indicating that this quote is from me.

* Their experience of Christianity is shallow. (Because the individual isn't following Jesus)

Rather like people have an experience of the LDS church that is shallow because the individual isn't following Jesus.

* The churches seem antagonistic to science. (Or don't talk about science)

Or, since this study is based on interviews with these people, maybe we can just trust them to tell us what they felt and why they left.

* The church feels unfriendly to those who doubt. (Some churches are)

Yes.

* The Mormons do a better job of keeping their children in the church.(Only true if both parents have strong testimonies)

Then the statistics would support the conclusion that in LDS families both parents have strong testimonies. And that means the reverse will be true, leaving the evangelicals in a situation where both parents don't have strong testimonies.

* The Mormons have a lower divorce rate, in contrast to young evangelicals watching their parents destroy their marriage in a blaze of selfishness, lust, and pride. (Do Jack Mormons divorce?)

With as much complaining as I hear on this forum, in fact I'm pretty sure there is one on this thread, about the LDS keeping members on the records your comment actually works against you. Since even Jack Mormons are members of record, and the statistic is for Mormons and not active Mormons, it is an even more amazing statistic. Thanks for pointing it out.

* The Mormons evangelize and make friends, in contrast to the "constant flow of vile hate from a small, but dedicated anti-Mormon fringe." (Not true)

Your "not true" is not true.

The LDS don't evangelize? This can't be a serious statement. The LDS hear all the time on this forum about how horrible it is that we evangelize. Making blatantly erroneous statements isn't generally good for the overall believability for the rest of the arguments being presented. We have over 60 thousand missionaries out evangelizing.

I am capable of demonstrating that second half of the statement is just as true, but the forum rules prevent it.

* The Mormons are orthodox within their own tradition, in contrast to the wide difference of doctrines that might be found in the Baptist or Presbyterian church. (There's no wide difference of doctrine within a denomination)

You posted a list, in this thread, of a great number of Baptist denominations. That tells me there's an astounding array of doctrinal beliefs within a denomination. Just claiming something will not make it so.

* The Mormons are involved in their church, in contrast to the short services, low accountability and zero church discipline. (The Mormons have been taught from age three that the whole family has to obey all the rules and that their church is the only true one and they mock non-Mormon doctrines)

CFR. Show were the LDS are teaching their families to mock non-Mormon doctrines. This is a blatant falsehood.

* The Mormons are less selfish, as compared to the ". . . small family, increasingly-divorced, mission-free, theologically diverse, and consumer-oriented church will prove to be ashes and dust — unable to resist a culture that relentlessly demonizes even the small remaining differences between evangelicals and atheists." (Not true)

Again, this article is based on a study. People may hide their heads in the sand, but the responses the people gave is that they observed this behavior and left the evangelical churches because of it. You really don't get to tell people that it is not true that they felt that way, or that it is not true that this is the reason they are leaving.


:o

 

[Ran77]

In order to be in the one church the Lord established, those added to it by the Lord must be saved according to His requirements. In Acts 2:47 we read, "And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved." The Lord only adds the saved to His church. There are no unsaved people in His church. We are not saved just because we think or feel in our hearts we are. We are saved only when we have done what God has said we must do. Jesus says in Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven." We must do God's will, not man's will, to go to heaven.

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Were you by chance looking in a mirror when you posted this? isn't that what this thread is all about?

I didn't post on the original topic, which seemed a bit backward to me. But my comment was not about me because it doesn't apply to me. If I engaged in that kind of behavior, that would be a different matter. But I don't.

 

[Moodshadow]

Jerald & Sandra Tanner? No one will accept source citations from them anymore because they've doctored so many in the past.

Ed Decker? His name alone is enough to discredit a work because of all the falsehoods he's told.

Martha Beck? Writer's Digest mentioned her name in the same breath as James Frey.

D. J. Nelson? His credentials were hokum.

Loftes Tryk? He didn't leave the church as he claimed, but was kicked out upon conviction of a sex crime.

Bill Schnobelen? His timelines of what group he was supposedly a member of and when don't mesh.

Grant Palmer? Claimed to be a faithful member, but an investigation revealed a history of disciplinary actions.

Jack Chick? Do I even need to explain?

And so on.

I've seen people claim that we don't use the Bible. I've seen people claim that LDS women have no rights. I've seen people claim that we worship Satan. I've seen people go out of their way to avoid citing actual church materials. And so on.

Pick a random anti-LDS work, and odds are you'll find a mix of lies and/or outdated information in the mix.

Whether you want to admit it or not, a shockingly large percentage of the counter-cult movement would rather "be right" than "be correct".

I once even had a guy over on another website lie to people about why he was no longer a member of the church. His explanation - "My bishop randomly tracked me down after years of inactivity to make an example out of me" - was so blatantly false that only the most hard-core anti-Mormons actually believed it. And when we did finally force him to tell the truth (he was living in sin with someone, his mom asked the bishop to speak to him about it, and he responded by tossing the bishop's letter in the trash unread), he spent the rest of the week playing the victim and accusing us of being "sin-sniffers".

This is the kind of blatant dishonesty I - and so many other Mormons - deal with daily when we interact with the counter-cult movement.

And so, my question: if we're so blatantly and obviously wrong, then why lie to people when the truth alone should suffice?

I readily admit that I have not read the entire thread, but this post caught my eye big-time and I feel compelled to respond to it. While it is true that most (if not all) of the sources you cite here are clearly anti-LDS, citing them as such does no more good than for a Catholic or ex-Mo or Muslim to excoriate the general authorities. ALL are 100% biased in one direction of the other, and NONE of them speak the whole truth, no matter what you or I or anyone else thinks or says. Moreover, one person's idea of truth can vary considerably from another's, and where does that leave us?

As a former member of the LDS church, I concur wholeheartedly with much of what was listed in the OP; I seriously miss a great deal of the good and wholesome that seems only to be found in the LDS church, for the reasons cited. But I left in spite of my love for all those things because I found that the church was not teaching what it said it was, and that is the word of Jesus Christ. Instead it teaches Joseph Smith's self-fabricated, self-serving, skewed versions of it, revised by countless of his successors and their appointees through the years - and still changing by the hour. Definitely not for me, thank you.

One more thing that the Baptists may not realize: the LDS church's attrition rate is also great - downright alarming to the general authorities - so the Baptists (and probably every other Christian denomination on the planet) aren't the only ones losing members. They are honest enough to publicize their figures, though, which the LDS church does not and will not. You'll hear the proud baptism figures announced from the conference pulpit, but never the exit/attrition figures.

End of sermon, and thanks for "listening."

 

[Ran77]

The biggest reason is the church needs revival.

How would that happen?

 

[TheBarrd]

When did I infer they wouldn't use force? They already do. It is illegal for women to leave Islam under Sharia law - the penalty is death.
I think you would do well to familiarize yourself with the history of Islam. They have a history of enslaving, raping, and murdering their subjects. They already have made the Inquisition look tame. Although the Christians of the Middle East received some clemency under the initial Arabian conquerors because the Arabs wanted their knowledge in their libraries which brought about "the golden age of Islam" this all ended with the Muslim conqueror Tamerlane. Basically the whole eastern church consisting of millions perished or were forcibly converted under this man.
In the end the falseness of Islam will cause it to fall.
21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.

I think you have the general idea. Islam is not a "peaceful religion".
On the other hand, I have read the first couple of chapters of the book "Wife No. 19"....your own sect evidently had a very violent beginning. I don't think I'd want guys like Joseph Smith or Brigham Young in charge either....

 

[TasteForTruth]

I think you have the general idea. Islam is not a "peaceful religion".
On the other hand, I have read the first couple of chapters of the book "Wife No. 19"....your own sect evidently had a very violent beginning. I don't think I'd want guys like Joseph Smith or Brigham Young in charge either....

Tell me, are those two chapters you read historically accurate?

 

[Rescued One]

CFR. Show were the LDS are teaching their families to mock non-Mormon doctrines. This is a blatant falsehood.

(19-4) Luke 17:21. What Is Meant by “the Kingdom of God Is within You”?

“One of the heresies which prevails in a large part of modern Christendom is the concept that Jesus did not organize a Church or set up a formal kingdom through which salvation might be offered to men. This poorly translated verse is one of those used to support the erroneous concept that the kingdom of God is wholly spiritual; that it is made up of those who confess Jesus with their lips, regardless of what church affiliation they may have; that the kingdom of God is within every person in the sense that all have the potential of attaining the highest spiritual goals; and that baptism, the laying on of hands, celestial marriage, and other ordinances and laws are not essential to the attainment of salvation.
Manual, The Life of Jesus and His Apostles, 1978, 1979, p. 129-130
lds.org


"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60

If it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
3 Nephi 27:4-12

You ask which churches are not teaching the true, complete Gospel.

This church is the only true and living church on the face of the whole earth.
Doctrine and Covenants 1:30

Often the clergy and adherents are not without dedication, and many of them practice remarkably well the virtues of Christianity. They are, nonetheless, incomplete. By his declaration, “… they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (JS—H 1:19.)
Boyd K. Packer, The Only True and Living Church, Ensign, December 1971

We can be extremely grateful for the Book of Mormon, “the keystone of our religion” (History of the Church, 4:461), which has restored the knowledge and understanding of “many parts which are plain and most precious” (1 Ne. 13:26), which were taken away from the Bible, as foretold in Nephi’s vision (see 1 Ne. 13:19–29). The absence of these plain and precious doctrines has led to various misconceptions such as the belief that Adam and Eve were evil and their fall was a grievous disappointment to Deity. This erroneous line of reasoning continues to assume that because of the transgression of Adam and Eve all infants born thereafter are tainted by “the original sin” and must, therefore, be baptized in their infancy to become pure again.
Another pervasive belief is that one’s salvation is predestined according to God’s good pleasure, that predestination overrides personal agency, and that grace supersedes the need for good works and participation in essential ordinances. Still another misconception concerns the Savior’s resurrection. Many churches teach that God the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are three spirits in one and that after the Resurrection we, too, will remain spirits forever.
Spencer J. Condie, The Fall and Infant Atonement, Ensign, Jan. 1996, 22–27

Contrary to what many think, just believing in God and being virtuous and pure are not sufficient to qualify a person for entrance into the kingdom of heaven....
People who accept and live doctrines of men do not know the living God.
Bernard P. Brockbank, “Entrance into the Kingdom of God,” Ensign, January 1973, p. 44

"Now, all the world today, I am sorry to say, with the exception of a handful of people who have obeyed the new and everlasting covenant, are suffering this spiritual death. They are cast out from the presence of God. They are without God, without Gospel truth, and without the power of redemption; for they know not God nor His Gospel. In order that they may be redeemed and saved from the spiritual death which has spread over the world like a pall, they must repent of their sins, and be baptized by one having [LDS] authority, for the remission of sins, that they may be born of God. That is why we want these young men to go out into the world to preach the Gospel. While they themselves understand but little perhaps, the germ of life is in them"(President Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, Oct. 1899, p. 72)
Book of Mormon Student Manual, Copyright 1989, p. 111

"In view of the emphasis thus far made on the importance of good works in returning from sin and establishing a repentant life, it may be well to say a word about the idea of salvation by faith alone. Some people not of our Church like to quote, in support of that concept, the following words of Paul: 'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.' (Eph. 2:8-9.) ... One of the most fallaciousdoctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."
Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 206

"One of the most pernicious doctrines ever advocated by man, is the doctrine of 'justification by faith alone,' which has entered into, the hearts of millions since the days of the so-called 'reformation."
Joseph Fielding Smith, The Restoration of All Things, p. 192

"The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil. The idea upon which this pernicious doctrine was founded was at first associated with that of an absolute predestination, by which man was foredoomed to destruction, or to an undeserved salvation."
James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 480
(my library)

You posted a list, in this thread, of a great number of Baptist denominations. That tells me there's an astounding array of doctrinal beliefs within a denomination. Just claiming something will not make it so.

Baptist is not a denomination. On the list are denominations (plural). And just claiming the proper nouns Jesus Christ does not make an organization a group of Christians.

Again, this article is based on a study. People may hide their heads in the sand, but the responses the people gave is that they observed this behavior and left the evangelical churches because of it. You really don't get to tell people that it is not true that they felt that way, or that it is not true that this is the reason they are leaving.

People have always left churches unless they were afraid to do so, and some have left in spite of their fears.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[TheBarrd]

So, do Mormons think that they earn their way into heaven with their good works? Really?

 

[TasteForTruth]

So, do Mormons think that they earn their way into heaven with their good works? Really?

No, we don't. We believe that we are saved through the merits and mercy of Jesus Christ (see 2 Ne. 2:8, Helaman 14:13, Moroni 6:4).

 

[TheBarrd]

Tell me, are those two chapters you read historically accurate?

Is there some reason I don't know to think they aren't?

 

[TasteForTruth]

Is there some reason I don't know to think they aren't?

Considering that you are fairly new to the world of Mormonism, I'm just wondering how you would know the difference, at this point, between "junk history" and "good history," where the LDS church and its leaders are concerned.

 

[TheBarrd]

Considering that you are fairly new to the world of Mormonism, I'm just wondering how you would know the difference, at this point, between "junk history" and "good history," where the LDS church and its leaders are concerned.

Okay, fair enough. So, are you telling me that the young lady who wrote the book is dishonest?

 

[Ran77]

(19-4) Luke 17:21. What Is Meant by “the Kingdom of God Is within You”?

“One of the heresies which prevails in a large part of modern Christendom is the concept that Jesus did not organize a Church or set up a formal kingdom through which salvation might be offered to men. This poorly translated verse is one of those used to support the erroneous concept that the kingdom of God is wholly spiritual; that it is made up of those who confess Jesus with their lips, regardless of what church affiliation they may have; that the kingdom of God is within every person in the sense that all have the potential of attaining the highest spiritual goals; and that baptism, the laying on of hands, celestial marriage, and other ordinances and laws are not essential to the attainment of salvation.
Manual, The Life of Jesus and His Apostles, 1978, 1979, p. 129-130
lds.org


"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60

If it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
3 Nephi 27:4-12

You ask which churches are not teaching the true, complete Gospel.

This church is the only true and living church on the face of the whole earth.
Doctrine and Covenants 1:30

Often the clergy and adherents are not without dedication, and many of them practice remarkably well the virtues of Christianity. They are, nonetheless, incomplete. By his declaration, “… they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (JS—H 1:19.)
Boyd K. Packer, The Only True and Living Church, Ensign, December 1971

We can be extremely grateful for the Book of Mormon, “the keystone of our religion” (History of the Church, 4:461), which has restored the knowledge and understanding of “many parts which are plain and most precious” (1 Ne. 13:26), which were taken away from the Bible, as foretold in Nephi’s vision (see 1 Ne. 13:19–29). The absence of these plain and precious doctrines has led to various misconceptions such as the belief that Adam and Eve were evil and their fall was a grievous disappointment to Deity. This erroneous line of reasoning continues to assume that because of the transgression of Adam and Eve all infants born thereafter are tainted by “the original sin” and must, therefore, be baptized in their infancy to become pure again.
Another pervasive belief is that one’s salvation is predestined according to God’s good pleasure, that predestination overrides personal agency, and that grace supersedes the need for good works and participation in essential ordinances. Still another misconception concerns the Savior’s resurrection. Many churches teach that God the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are three spirits in one and that after the Resurrection we, too, will remain spirits forever.
Spencer J. Condie, The Fall and Infant Atonement, Ensign, Jan. 1996, 22–27

Contrary to what many think, just believing in God and being virtuous and pure are not sufficient to qualify a person for entrance into the kingdom of heaven....
People who accept and live doctrines of men do not know the living God.
Bernard P. Brockbank, “Entrance into the Kingdom of God,” Ensign, January 1973, p. 44

"Now, all the world today, I am sorry to say, with the exception of a handful of people who have obeyed the new and everlasting covenant, are suffering this spiritual death. They are cast out from the presence of God. They are without God, without Gospel truth, and without the power of redemption; for they know not God nor His Gospel. In order that they may be redeemed and saved from the spiritual death which has spread over the world like a pall, they must repent of their sins, and be baptized by one having [LDS] authority, for the remission of sins, that they may be born of God. That is why we want these young men to go out into the world to preach the Gospel. While they themselves understand but little perhaps, the germ of life is in them"(President Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, Oct. 1899, p. 72)
Book of Mormon Student Manual, Copyright 1989, p. 111

"In view of the emphasis thus far made on the importance of good works in returning from sin and establishing a repentant life, it may be well to say a word about the idea of salvation by faith alone. Some people not of our Church like to quote, in support of that concept, the following words of Paul: 'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.' (Eph. 2:8-9.) ... One of the most fallaciousdoctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."
Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 206

"One of the most pernicious doctrines ever advocated by man, is the doctrine of 'justification by faith alone,' which has entered into, the hearts of millions since the days of the so-called 'reformation."
Joseph Fielding Smith, The Restoration of All Things, p. 192

"The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil. The idea upon which this pernicious doctrine was founded was at first associated with that of an absolute predestination, by which man was foredoomed to destruction, or to an undeserved salvation."
James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 480
(my library)

Amazing. These are not examples of LDS teaching their families to mock non-LDS religions.

Mock means: to ridicule by mimicry of action or speech; mimic derisively


:o

 

[TasteForTruth]

Okay, fair enough. So, are you telling me that the young lady who wrote the book is dishonest?

No. In fact, I'm not telling you anything. As you are someone who I sincerely believe values truth, I'm inviting you to consider the quality of information you are consuming, which information you appear to be employing to make judgments about my religion, its leaders and its history.

 

[TheBarrd]

Amazing. These are not examples of LDS teaching their families to mock non-LDS religions.

Mock means: to ridicule by mimicry of action or speech; mimic derisively


:o

Is anyone here doing that to LDS?

 

[TheBarrd]

No. In fact, I'm not telling you anything. As you are someone who I sincerely believe values truth, I'm inviting you to consider the quality of information you are consuming, which information you appear to be employing to make judgments about my religion, its leaders and its history.

I appreciate that vote for my integrity. Thank you, TfT. I feel exactly the same about you...but I think you already knew that. You are a man of integrity, who values truth.

Problem is, what you believe to be truth, and what I believe to be truth are...you should pardon the pun...worlds apart.

As to Ann Eliza...I seriously don't see any reason for her to make up stories.
And I'm sure you've seen the book...it is HUGE! She didn't write it in a day, that's for sure. This work took awhile...she had to have been dedicated to her cause...
Of course, that doesn't mean her history is accurate...however, there is no reason for me to think she's lying, either.