Simple questions ---

[Tkjjc]

You mistake the depth of this statement by Paul, by not considering the state of those sinners resurrected at the second resurrection in the righteous new earth,... living righteously after death and resurrection is all that is required to perfect love and so be translated to spirit [redeemed] at judgment day ... something most christians do not understand because they take their beliefs from sinners instead of from teachings such as this in scripture of the saints ... the saints and prophets are a far better source of the truth tahn all the books and preachings of sinners in the countless divided apostate churches , on the web, and in books ...

Actually that statement is just that. A statement by Paul letting Romans know that there is no second chances at salvation. When you are dead, you are dead. You cannot sin, live, cry, hurt, love, NOTHING. You are dead.

There is NO second chance at salvation. There is NO way that a sinner, who has died in sin, can enter into new heaven or new earth . There is only a narrow path, so small that only a few find it. Yes it did say multitudes in Rev 7:9. All this tells me is that Christ will not be coming back for a while. Few finding it out of many means just that. Few.

If you are alive to Christ, you must live according to EVERYTHING that is written. Sinless, Blameless, according to the Word of God.

 

[stranger]

I will try and explain to you a little more nicer than you have shown me,,ok?

My friend, I know the truth hurts us all [as much as anything perhaps] , but do not hold that against me ... I only pointed at what God has said [insofar as it was pointed out to me in prayer and meditation on it... please do not feel that it has anything to do with us ... what on earth upset you ???]

I read the Bible. This is my source for the Truth. K? I pray for understanding that I might know the path to live righteous(SINLESS LIVING).

It is an easy mistake which I made myself ... becoiming a saint is not through knowing even all the scripture, but is consequent upon baptism of the spirit to come to know all truth [John 16:13] and baptism of 'fire' [Luke 3:16], the trial of given faith that perfects love [causes and proves sinlessness] ... one cannot get there by oneself by any means, and God has said who will be the ones redeemed this way in this life, most having to wait beyond death and the second resurrection to even begin....

Revelation 7:9-10, you have shown that you misunderstand completely. These people have come out of the great tribulation. Their robes are washed clean with Jesus's Blood. This isn't everyone on the planet, these are Christians in the truest sense of the word. They died for and in their beliefs.

I did not misunderstand, and they are indeed saints, but they are the saints of the new earth, not the FEW firstfruit saints of this earth [who are listed in Rev 7:3-8] who find the narrow way in this life

Indeed it isn't everyone, but it is countless many , as distinct from the few who find the narrow way... thus these many did come through destruction :-

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Thus your next comment gives false impression that the many are not saved after destruction of their bodies , when Jesus confirms that they are saved in Rev 7:9-10

The broad way to destruction as quoted by Jesus, doesn't mean saved,,,it means DESTROYED.

You have misunderstood, even Jesus was destroyed ['apoleia'] on the cross , yet he was saved...

The Narrow and Wide Gates


Matthew 7

13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.


14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


How many? FEW!

Indeed FEW find the narrow way of sainthood in this life, many find the broad way of sainthood in the new earth kingdom of God, but the many have to suffer destruction in death, the few do not necessarily die even [although most do] ... do you see now, both ways are ways to Jesus way of perfection of love, just at different times because God just needs a FEW to be kings and priests, not everyone... and He needs them FIRST , the many later ...

 

[stranger]

John 8
10Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more."

I am not clear as to how you conclude that this woman is not of the lost House of Israel ?

Hebrews 10
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

I am not sure what significance you see in this in relation to what has been said, but it describes 'blasphemy of the spirit' for which there can be no forgiveness since the spirit is the only means to repentance... don't get your point, sorry, but have discussed the fate [and redemption by enduring mercy of the loving God ] of people in the lake of 'fire' elsewhere...

1 John 3

1See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Again this is undoubtedly true, but I fail to see the point that you are trying to make, can you explain at all please ?

 

[Tkjjc]

Define sin according to the scriptures please.

 

[Tkjjc]

Quote:
Hebrews 10
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

I am not sure what significance you see in this in relation to what has been said, but it describes 'blasphemy of the spirit' for which there can be no forgiveness since the spirit is the only means to repentance... don't get your point, sorry, but have discussed the fate [and redemption by enduring mercy of the loving God ] of people in the lake of 'fire' elsewhere...

and where does it say this is talking about blasphemy of the spirit?

 

[stranger]

Actually that statement is just that. A statement by Paul letting Romans know that there is no second chances at salvation. When you are dead, you are dead. You cannot sin, live, cry, hurt, love, NOTHING. You are dead.

All people are resurrected from hell, death is not the end of anything, but merely a temporary cessation of life , and yes the dead feel nothing, know nothing of death, cannot sin or do anything, but the resurrected to the new earth live righteously and so can be forgiven their past sins just as easily as the saints of this earth :-

Ezek 18:21 ¶ But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Thus sinners of this earth can escape the second death by righteous life in the new earth , as saints following Jesus there, ministered to by the saints f this earth who are the kings and priests in the new earth kingdom come to all men :-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Why are these resurrected sinners living righteously in the new earth prior to judgment if they had no chnace of redemption ???

Why would God even bother to resurrect all sinners if He already had made Hs mind up about them [even if they had no chance to believe in Jesus in their first life, even if they were stillbirths, even if they never had time to be christened, etc, etc]

Your idea comes from a widely held teaching of sinners in this world, but does not agree with the justice of God, the resurrection of sinners , the redemption of the many -Rev 7:9-10] [not just the few] ... in short it is non-biblical teaching of sinners, not from saints or Jesus...

There is NO second chance at salvation. There is NO way that a sinner, who has died in sin, can enter into new heaven or new earth .

The sinners of this earth were made sinners by God , Paul tells us this :-
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

This God acheives simply by witholding the spirit from all but the few He gives to Jesus... thus sinners never had any 'chance' of being other than sinners in this life, so the second resurrectio is indeed their first chance at being saints and being redeemed thrugh perfecting their love in trial in the new earth [and Satan is released from death to tempt them in their trial[baptism of fire] :-

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Equally obviously God did not baptise all men to know all truth [John 16:13] in this life ,since most men die sinners and not knowing all truth ... so teh first time most men know all truth to be able to cease sinning [defeat Satan's wiles] is in the new earth after the second resurrection... and they need to perfect their love in the righteous new earth before judgment day ...served by the few who were perfected in love in this earth...

Ths there is indeed only one time of perfection of love for all men, but it is NOT the SAME time for all men ...

There is only a narrow path, so small that only a few find it. Yes it did say multitudes in Rev 7:9. All this tells me is that Christ will not be coming back for a while. Few finding it out of many means just that. Few.

Indeed it means FEW in Matthew, so we know that the many saved in Rev 7:9-10 go by the broad way through destruction in death , but jesus says they are still saved -Rev 7:10 ... so why do you not see that they are saved AFTERWARD, as it says at the beginning of Rev 7:9 ???

If they are saved after the return of Jesus, after the firstfruits, then they can only be resurrected at the second resurrection , yet they are saved nonetheless, Jesus says so ...

If you are alive to Christ, you must live according to EVERYTHING that is written. Sinless, Blameless, according to the Word of God.

That is true, but living righteously in that manner comes after being a sinner, and it matters not if one is righteous in this life [as the few are] or righteous in the new earth [as the many are]... Jesus showed us that the way to eternal life is through perfection of love and trial of given faith... it matters not WHEN one does this, whetehr now or after the second resurrection...

 

[stranger]

Define sin according to the scriptures please.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

... Jesus explained what the law [of love, of God] is :-

Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Thus any unlovingness to God or any man at any time is sin....

 

[stranger]

Quote:
Hebrews 10
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

and where does it say this is talking about blasphemy of the spirit?

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Denying the truth of God afetr spirit baptism by teh holy ghost [spirit] is asserting that oneself is above God, above God's truth about love... that is blasphemy against the very spirit of God ... this is exactly what leads Satan and his closest followers eventually to the second death and the lake of 'fire' , the final trial of men by God...

So understand that only the most committed to evil will end up in this state , denied even death as a way out... they have no-one left to prey upon but themselves and they all thus suffer at each others hands, gaining nothing from evil any more, but losing out continually... an almost unbearable, but just lesson from God that evil does not work, even though it seemed very beneficial to them in this earth [because they preyed upon the gullible and the meek, who lost out because of their evil] ... God then is fair in showing them their mistake the hard way after they fail to note His truth given by His own spirit... their only way out is to sue fr mercy once God is convinced they have finally learned that evfil does not work, that love is teh ONLY way....

 

[Tkjjc]

Thus sinners of this earth can escape the second death by righteous life in the new earth , as saints following Jesus there, ministered to by the saints f this earth who are the kings and priests in the new earth kingdom come to all men :-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Why are these resurrected sinners living righteously in the new earth prior to judgment if they had no chnace of redemption ???

Why would God even bother to resurrect all sinners if He already had made Hs mind up about them [even if they had no chance to believe in Jesus in their first life, even if they were stillbirths, even if they never had time to be christened, etc, etc]

Your idea comes from a widely held teaching of sinners in this world, but does not agree with the justice of God, the resurrection of sinners , the redemption of the many -Rev 7:9-10] [not just the few] ... in short it is non-biblical teaching of sinners, not from saints or Jesus...

My ideas are not my own. They are God the Father's handed down for over 6000+ years. Your teaching is completely false, and has no bearing on Truth. God is Justice, but that Justice only comes from knowing His Son Jesus Christ and by faith in Him. God gave you the means to be saved, and either you follow that which was prescribed, and described from the Holy Word, or you do not.

Nowhere in scriptures do we read that an unrighteous, unsaved person who dies will inherit eternal life with God, PERIOD! There is no second chance, so be grateful for this one. Lawlessness would prevail if people thought for a moment that it didn't matter what you did in this life, you had a second chance at another. What then was the purpose of Christ coming? He could have just waited until the magical second chance, and said HERE I AM! Believe now or be damned.

 

[perrin275]

No major scriptural study is required. Just simple answers to very simple questions.
1. Is man the center piece and primary purpose for God’s creation?
Genesis 2.7 And the L-RD G-d formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
(No other creature in G-d's creation was called "a living being")

2. What does God desire for mankind?
Deuteronomy 6.5 You shall love the L-RD your G-d with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.


3. What is God’s plan for man?
Leviticus 11.45 For I am the L-RD who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your G-d. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.


4. What is the general purpose of God’s doctrines/teachings?
Psalms 40.7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my G-d,
And Your law is within my heart.”

5. What is God’s ultimate motive for all that He does?
Deuteronomy 11.1 Therefore you shall love the L-RD your G-d, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always.

Jeremiah 31.33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the
L-RD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people.

6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity? Y
1 Corinthians 11.1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

7. Are we to become like Christ?
1 Corinthians 11.1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

 

[stranger]

No major scriptural study is required. Just simple answers to very simple questions.
1. Is man the center piece and primary purpose for God’s creation?
Genesis 2.7 And the L-RD G-d formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
(No other creature in G-d's creation was called "a living being")

Not so actually, God breathes His spirit into animals too ... they too are liivng beings, living souls...

Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

 

[Evergreen48]

Not so actually, God breathes His spirit into animals too ... they too are liivng beings, living souls...

The scriptures do not teach that 'God breathes His spirit into animals too'.

There seems to be only one word ( ruwach ) that describes both the 'breath' which is of the natural respiratory system of both man and beast, and the 'breath' which is of the spiritual nature which God breathed into man only. No where in the scriptures do we find that God breathed any breath of life into the beasts of the earth.

 

[stranger]

Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Acts 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

-- As God tells us, His breath is the breath of life because it changes an inanimate body into a living being... animals are just as much living beings as men...

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[boodle]

None of this debate over the breath/source of life is relevenat to my post. One could as easily state that man is the center piece of God's creation from 3 other points.
1. Man is the only creature created in the image of God
2. God's relationship with man throughout history is the sole subject of scripture.
3. Christ died for the sins of man, not the beasts

 

[stranger]

None of this debate over the breath/source of life is relevenat to my post. One could as easily state that man is the center piece of God's creation from 3 other points.
1. Man is the only creature created in the image of God

The bible nowhere says man is the ONLY creature created in the image of God, you are mistaken...

2. God's relationship with man throughout history is the sole subject of scripture.

Again quite untrue... mankind is merely the bait in the trap set for Satan according to Isaiah, Ezekiel, Paul, and others, why do you exclude their assessment of mankind as a mere side-effect necessary simply to lure Satan into admitting that he believes himself above God because simple-minded gullible men worship him worldwide ... ? [Rev 13:3-7]

3. Christ died for the sins of man, not the beasts

Christ died to redeem all creatures , angels too , again your anthropocentric traditional beliefs are not those of scripture ...

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[boodle]

The bible nowhere says man is the ONLY creature created in the image of God, you are mistaken...



Again quite untrue... mankind is merely the bait in the trap set for Satan according to Isaiah, Ezekiel, Paul, and others, why do you exclude their assessment of mankind as a mere side-effect necessary simply to lure Satan into admitting that he believes himself above God because simple-minded gullible men worship him worldwide ... ? [Rev 13:3-7]



Christ died to redeem all creatures , angels too , again your anthropocentric traditional beliefs are not those of scripture ...

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

not interested.

 

[boodle]

Here are a few samples of answers to my questions. Most agree that Christ is to be our example and that we are to become like Him.

Evergreen48 says -
Quote:
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity?
Yes, I believe that is true.

Quote:
7. Are we to become like Christ?
Yes, I believe we are admonished to do that.

. elman says -
Quote:
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity?
Yes
Quote:
7. Are we to become like Christ?
Yes.

Tavita says -
Are we to become like Christ?

Yes. To be a disciple is to become like your Master.

Hybrid says -
Quote:
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity?
YES

Quote:
7. Are we to become like Christ?
YES BY BEING ONE WITH HIM

Tkjjc says -

Quote:
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity?
No, the primary purpose of the mission was to become a sacrifice for sin. We got the bonus with His ministry as an example of how to achieve the entirety of the message of his Word.
Quote:
7. Are we to become like Christ?
Yes, in order to get to heaven one must pick up their cross and follow Him, as He was the Way to get there.

perrin275 says -
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity? Y
1 Corinthians 11.1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

7. Are we to become like Christ?
1 Corinthians 11.1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Based on these answers, I would like to ask ---
Assuming that Christ has a dual nature (100% God and 100% man) Which nature is our example and which are we to become like?

If you answer is his human nature, could you please define then what acts, by Jesus, as recorded in scripture we have to capability of imitating?
Could you further explain which characteristics of Christ nature are human and which are devine?

 

[stranger]

Jesus was God and was with God in the beginning . as th Word, the right-hand covering cherub at the very throne of God [John 1] which manifested as the man , thus he is both son of God and son of man...

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

In following him in this earth the saints cease to sin and have their past sins forgiven by grace , but only after being led to know all truth by God Himself [not by men, and not by sinners as in modern religion]

Thus almsot all men do NOT know all truth before death and cannot thus follow Jesus into sinlessness , perfection of love in obedience to his command to the saints to love God and love men...

But all men will know all truth , all will be baptised of God's own spirit by Him, just not now, as we see...

so all men can do for now, to save woe when God reveals the truth about us to us, is sin as little as they can [rather than be wicked and sin as much as they can]

simply note that most men did not come to all truth in this life and yet God has the means to bring all men to all truth through the holy spirit [John 16:13] and the will to do so :-

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Equally God has the means to save all men by this means because it leads to perfection of love [righteousness, obedience to the law of love]in the many too in the new earth [after the second resurrection and before judgment... men live rihteously and so are forgiven , just as the saints were/are in this life]


2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[boodle]

Here are a few samples of answers to my questions. Most agree that Christ is to be our example and that we are to become like Him.

Evergreen48 says -
Quote:
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity?
Yes, I believe that is true.

Quote:
7. Are we to become like Christ?
Yes, I believe we are admonished to do that.

. elman says -
Quote:
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity?
Yes
Quote:
7. Are we to become like Christ?
Yes.

Tavita says -
Are we to become like Christ?

Yes. To be a disciple is to become like your Master.

Hybrid says -
Quote:
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity?
YES

Quote:
7. Are we to become like Christ?
YES BY BEING ONE WITH HIM

Tkjjc says -

Quote:
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity?
No, the primary purpose of the mission was to become a sacrifice for sin. We got the bonus with His ministry as an example of how to achieve the entirety of the message of his Word.
Quote:
7. Are we to become like Christ?
Yes, in order to get to heaven one must pick up their cross and follow Him, as He was the Way to get there.

perrin275 says -
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity? Y
1 Corinthians 11.1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

7. Are we to become like Christ?
1 Corinthians 11.1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Based on these answers, I would like to ask ---
Assuming that Christ has a dual nature (100% God and 100% man) Which nature is our example and which are we to become like?

If you answer is his human nature, could you please define then what acts, by Jesus, as recorded in scripture we have to capability of imitating?
Could you further explain which characteristics of Christ nature are human and which are devine?

Still looking for a reasonable answer to my questions. Others will be ignored.

 

[coyoteBR]

Wow, not so simple, but I'll try.

Several Questions if you please –
No major scriptural study is required. Just simple answers to very simple questions.
1. Is man the center piece and primary purpose for God’s creation?
2. What does God desire for mankind?
3. What is God’s plan for man?
4. What is the general purpose of God’s doctrines/teachings?
5. What is God’s ultimate motive for all that He does?
6. Is a major part of Christ’s mission to be an example for humanity?
7. Are we to become like Christ?

1 - Let's use some perspective. We inhabit one visible dimension/plan of existence in a small planet in a dusty corner of the universe. I'd say we're very important to God, like a farmer that harvests tons of grains, but know every seed is important. But central... Nope.

2- That we put His Law of Love in action on earth.

3 - See His Law in action.

4 - the only easy one: Love God above everything and your neighbour like yourself.

5 - Impossible to answer. I doubt anyone could be the psychiatrist of God.

6 - I think His Whole Mission was to Teach and Give Examples to humanity

7 - Ah, we're such slow learners...comparing to the middle ages, we did some progress, but nothing to write home about. Still a long, long, long way to go.