Should and why do good people that are non believers go to hell?
- Thread starter Dr.J0sh
- Start date
oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
Yes, this answer contains it all. It is interesting to see it in this, remember that human desires often conflict with God's desires (naturally, when you consider why). So that would show you that the cause of wrong interpretation and disagreements over scripture is not His fault, nor what He wants. The same about the other religions eh. Are you able to point to any religion that is not man made? I have potentially four in mind. When you identify the religions that aren't man made, then ask whether they are made by God or someone else. I would be interested to know what you find from that exercise, I reckon it will be worth your time. It's interesting too, if you are willing to introspect, find out why your lack of understanding prevents you from believing in Him instead of believing in Him and praying for Him to give you the understanding you need.
Upvote
0
I was going to say all religions are man made but then I thought about and idk. I guess that was my sort of past atheist part of me kicking in idk... A thing to adds about the disagreements is like why should we get punished when we simply didn't know ya know lol. Like butterfly effect idk.
Upvote
0
oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
This really depends on the definition used for "omnipotent", but it also relies on an assumption we must make about whether person x will have everlasting life or not. I really want to call into question your assertion that all Jews of the holocaust are eternally doomed, but you should start your own thread in order to get to the bottom of it, as the forum rules require.
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote
0
Under some versions of Christian theology, the Jews would be in hell. Not my version, and probably not even the majority in the US. From what I've read of Hitler's use of Christianity, it seems unlikely that he was a follower of Christ.
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote
0
As has already been pointed out from God's POV there are none who are good. But, even if you could be "good" enough it would not get you out of Hell into Heaven. Because it's not a matter of good and bad, but rather life and death. A dead "good" person is still just as dead as a dead "bad" person. Jesus didn't come to make us good. He came to make us alive together with Himself....He came to give us life.
Upvote
0
oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
I actually do not like this statement at all, since it goes against the purpose of His mission to earth. All scriptures of the faithful describe eventually the wicked will be no more, and the world will be full of people who love to honour God. This is emphasised by Christian writers, encouraging the same message Jesus taught: "leave your life of sin and follow me." That is the only way that Jesus can be seen to really be the propitiation for sin. That is to say, because of His resurrection and promises, we have a hope that is real enough that sin no longer has victory over us.
Upvote
0
Well, you plucked it out of its context. Regardless, His mission was not to make bad people good, His mission was to make dead people alive. Dead people can't be good. But people made alive together with Christ, indwelt by the God who alone is good, can be expressers of His goodness.
God alone is good.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
If one is not as good, and righteous, and perfect, and holy, and sinless as God, he or she is not good enough for Heaven. That is why Christ is our Righteousness, and all must enter Heaven through Him, and His blood, and His righteousness.
Upvote
0
I guess you have to have Jesus for heaven no matter but like idk. Its just sad and not to right have people who tried their best to help others go there for not believing. Sure they ain't perfect but at least they try and learn from mistakes ya know? And maybe what if they were of a different religion and were taught and disclipined all other religions/gods or whatever were false? Maybe they were just confused or whatever and decided not to be of any religion ya know? Or what if there life was cut short for some circumstances and werent yet able to come to god... Idk it just is really depressing to have good souls and role models go to hell because of miscommunication or misinformation.. Not only that but it's permanate punishment for finite mistakes. What about my family or your family? My dad is an atheist and what will happen to him when he dies? How am I supposed to enjoy my paradise If I make it to heaven when I know my father is gone of any other family or friend... Sorry about the long post just got really hit by it I guess.
Upvote
0
Remember, this is not the majority Christian view.
The more common position is that people are judged on the basis of what they know. See Rom 2.
A common Catholic version of this speaks of "anonymous Christians," those who follow Christ even though they don't recognize that it's Christ.
Upvote
0
Finite sinful mortals cannot really comprehend God's ways and God's standards. What we can be sure about is that every human being has at least one opportunity to turn to the true and living God, regardless of their background. Please note what is stated in Jn 1:3-10: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not... That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
I direct your attention to verse 9, which is God's Truth, not man's fiction. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. In plain English it means that Jesus provides an opportunity to EVERY MAN to come to the Light. We may not fully understand the how and when of this, but God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that is "inclusive," of which CS Lewis was an outspoken advocate, and it turns out Billy Graham is inclusivist as well. As am I. But inclusive is not universalism.
Upvote
0
Dear Exordatius. I do not believe that good people go to hell, God made us in His image, and God is Love.
In Matthew22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." Verse 40: points out to us: on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. God will see our loving efforts, and God will approve and bless us.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," change from being selfish and unloving to be loving, kind and helpful. People will treat us the same as we treat people, and love is very catching. We gradually change into the men and women which God wants us to be, kind and loving and compassionate. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us and carry on being loving and kind. Jesus told us in Luke 10: 25-28: " The two Commandments to Love God and love our neighbour is what God wants from us: " DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE." God wants loving sons and daughters, and Satan runs away from all Love and Compassion. Real good and loving people will NEVER GO TO HELL. I say this with love, Exordatius. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. ( neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends.)
In Matthew22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." Verse 40: points out to us: on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. God will see our loving efforts, and God will approve and bless us.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," change from being selfish and unloving to be loving, kind and helpful. People will treat us the same as we treat people, and love is very catching. We gradually change into the men and women which God wants us to be, kind and loving and compassionate. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us and carry on being loving and kind. Jesus told us in Luke 10: 25-28: " The two Commandments to Love God and love our neighbour is what God wants from us: " DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE." God wants loving sons and daughters, and Satan runs away from all Love and Compassion. Real good and loving people will NEVER GO TO HELL. I say this with love, Exordatius. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. ( neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends.)
Upvote
0
Sophrosyne
Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
I think the big problem I see over and over is that people contend that those who reject God are "good" and that God is responsible for everyone knowing him when free will allows people to teach people both not of God and things that confuse and contradict God. People presuppose that God is responsible for the salvation of everyone when throughout the Bible he has gone to great lengths to show himself to people and it has been seen that for the most part his great power through the miraculous has shown that even then people reject him a point in mind is Moses and all the miracles God did to deliver them from Pharaoh and shortly afterwards the same people rejected God for a golden calf some of which some here would probably say are "good". God flooded the earth wiping out all people and the only people we know of alive are all witnesses to his power and yet their offspring rejected God mostly. This is why I think we need a redeemer and the Gospel because it shows that we cannot as a species (mankind) ever aspire to totall good instead if left alone we go more and more evil it is only the presence of God in the world and the presence of believers in him that I think have stemmed the tide of evil so that good has even a chance to thrive.
One could ask themselves this question: If someone who is "good" hears the Gospel presented properly and doesn't respond to it what does that say about them? It says they want nothing of God and their own "goodness" to them is enough for them. Essentially they are setting standards God must approve of like taking a class at a college and telling the professor that you will make your own test and take and pass it ignoring his test and when he gives you a failing grade you cry foul.
If one truly contends God is the creator of all that is good and acknowledges him as all good and all powerful then rejecting him puts you at odds with "all that is good". Those who reject God he has no choice but to let them have their desires and go where they can be away from God.... Hell.
I contend that even if Hell is known as a place of great suffering that nobody in Hell is unfairly punished or mistreated by God. I contend those who have great sins and have done great evil suffer accordingly and those who have almost no sin and who have done great good suffer for their misdeeds appropriately. In other words I contend that suffering/punishment/torment is on one level deserves and related to the sins of those who are captives there. I also contend that some of the suffering in hell is people who when they are stuck there bring upon themselves in an eternal act of regret that they could have believed but didn't and that regret is so heavy upon them that they welcome, perhaps even plead for punishment/torment to relieve their self induced suffering.
We cannot blame God for those who haven't hear the gospel, we have to blame the endless parents and people of cultures who in the past decided to shove him aside and either totally reject him or dilute who he is to the point that people disregard his Gospel message. I think most here will agree that if someone takes your place in front of a firing squad that their sacrifice shouldn't be taken lightly..... this is what ignoring the Gospel does it essentially equates one thinks Jesus is not important to them.
One could ask themselves this question: If someone who is "good" hears the Gospel presented properly and doesn't respond to it what does that say about them? It says they want nothing of God and their own "goodness" to them is enough for them. Essentially they are setting standards God must approve of like taking a class at a college and telling the professor that you will make your own test and take and pass it ignoring his test and when he gives you a failing grade you cry foul.
If one truly contends God is the creator of all that is good and acknowledges him as all good and all powerful then rejecting him puts you at odds with "all that is good". Those who reject God he has no choice but to let them have their desires and go where they can be away from God.... Hell.
I contend that even if Hell is known as a place of great suffering that nobody in Hell is unfairly punished or mistreated by God. I contend those who have great sins and have done great evil suffer accordingly and those who have almost no sin and who have done great good suffer for their misdeeds appropriately. In other words I contend that suffering/punishment/torment is on one level deserves and related to the sins of those who are captives there. I also contend that some of the suffering in hell is people who when they are stuck there bring upon themselves in an eternal act of regret that they could have believed but didn't and that regret is so heavy upon them that they welcome, perhaps even plead for punishment/torment to relieve their self induced suffering.
We cannot blame God for those who haven't hear the gospel, we have to blame the endless parents and people of cultures who in the past decided to shove him aside and either totally reject him or dilute who he is to the point that people disregard his Gospel message. I think most here will agree that if someone takes your place in front of a firing squad that their sacrifice shouldn't be taken lightly..... this is what ignoring the Gospel does it essentially equates one thinks Jesus is not important to them.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Two things seem clear to me in scripture:
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"--1 Timothy 2
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"-- 2 Peter 3
One is that God is biased toward salvation. God is not impartial on the subject, uncaring whether a man is saved or not, but sincerely wants every person to be saved. He is not equally balanced so that one has a fifty-fifty chance of going either way, but tilted toward salvation so that one has to purposefully run away from Him in order to miss it.
And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left. -- Jonah 4
The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.-- Luke 12
Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. -- John 9
Two is that--correlating with point One--God takes ignorance into consideration in His judgment. To what extent, I don't know, nor do I need to know--I should not know a person who I've left ignorant of God, so it's not relevant to me how He judges the ignorant.
With regard to infants who die, the point is not that they are perfectly innocent, the point is that they are perfectly ignorant.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.-- Romans 1
What leaves them without excuse is their knowledge. They are condemnable by what they knew and how they responded to what they knew, not their ignorance.
We have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.
Now then, please swear to me by the Lord that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them—and that you will save us from death.”-- Joshua 2
Again, the Canaanites are condemned by how they responded to what they knew, not by what they didn't know. But how can one respond?
Speaking to pagans, Paul said:
People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’-- Acts 17
So it's possible to be ignorant of exactly who God by name--and yet God has made it possible to "seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him."
It’s a rare Christian who will contend that Job is unsaved…yet, what saves him?
Job is a man who worships God in ignorance, which is much of what the book is about. He had no gospel of John or even a Mosaic Law. He guessed at his worship, doing what he thought should be proper, making sacrifices "just in case."
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have a covenant, do by nature things required by a covenant, they are a covenant for themselves, even though they do not have a covenant.-- Romans 2
Job was a man with an individual covenant with God. How did Job know about God? Well, I see this in scripture:
The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky proclaims the work of His hands. Day after day they pour out speech; night after night they communicate knowledge. There is no speech; there are no words; their voice is not heard. Their message has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.—Psalm 19
And then I see God saying these things to Job:
Canst thou bring forth the constellations in their seasons? Or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? – Job 38
Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you. He eats grass like an ox. Look at the strength of his loins and the power in the muscles of his belly. – Job 40
Can you pull in Leviathan with a hook or tie his tongue down with a rope? -- Job 41
This is unique. God does not speak of His creation—things like stars and great beasts—to anyone else like this. To the Jews, for instance, God spoke of the things He did for them. But to Job, God speaks of His creation. I believe that’s because Job knows God only through His creation, which is what Paul said to the Athenians that God intends.
Moreover, God holds men accountable for seeing Him in nature and believing in Him through nature, to repeat:
For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.
For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. -- Romans 1
Job says this, in frustration:
If only there were someone to mediate between us, someone to bring us together, someone to remove God’s rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more. -- Job 9
Job did not know the name of Jesus, but he knew he needed a mediator between him and God. Thus, no other religion provides satisfaction. The man who sees God in nature, who seeks after Him, will be frustrated with any other religion.
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"--1 Timothy 2
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"-- 2 Peter 3
One is that God is biased toward salvation. God is not impartial on the subject, uncaring whether a man is saved or not, but sincerely wants every person to be saved. He is not equally balanced so that one has a fifty-fifty chance of going either way, but tilted toward salvation so that one has to purposefully run away from Him in order to miss it.
And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left. -- Jonah 4
The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.-- Luke 12
Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. -- John 9
Two is that--correlating with point One--God takes ignorance into consideration in His judgment. To what extent, I don't know, nor do I need to know--I should not know a person who I've left ignorant of God, so it's not relevant to me how He judges the ignorant.
With regard to infants who die, the point is not that they are perfectly innocent, the point is that they are perfectly ignorant.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.-- Romans 1
What leaves them without excuse is their knowledge. They are condemnable by what they knew and how they responded to what they knew, not their ignorance.
We have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.
Now then, please swear to me by the Lord that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them—and that you will save us from death.”-- Joshua 2
Again, the Canaanites are condemned by how they responded to what they knew, not by what they didn't know. But how can one respond?
Speaking to pagans, Paul said:
People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’-- Acts 17
So it's possible to be ignorant of exactly who God by name--and yet God has made it possible to "seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him."
It’s a rare Christian who will contend that Job is unsaved…yet, what saves him?
Job is a man who worships God in ignorance, which is much of what the book is about. He had no gospel of John or even a Mosaic Law. He guessed at his worship, doing what he thought should be proper, making sacrifices "just in case."
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have a covenant, do by nature things required by a covenant, they are a covenant for themselves, even though they do not have a covenant.-- Romans 2
Job was a man with an individual covenant with God. How did Job know about God? Well, I see this in scripture:
The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky proclaims the work of His hands. Day after day they pour out speech; night after night they communicate knowledge. There is no speech; there are no words; their voice is not heard. Their message has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.—Psalm 19
And then I see God saying these things to Job:
Canst thou bring forth the constellations in their seasons? Or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? – Job 38
Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you. He eats grass like an ox. Look at the strength of his loins and the power in the muscles of his belly. – Job 40
Can you pull in Leviathan with a hook or tie his tongue down with a rope? -- Job 41
This is unique. God does not speak of His creation—things like stars and great beasts—to anyone else like this. To the Jews, for instance, God spoke of the things He did for them. But to Job, God speaks of His creation. I believe that’s because Job knows God only through His creation, which is what Paul said to the Athenians that God intends.
Moreover, God holds men accountable for seeing Him in nature and believing in Him through nature, to repeat:
For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.
For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. -- Romans 1
Job says this, in frustration:
If only there were someone to mediate between us, someone to bring us together, someone to remove God’s rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more. -- Job 9
Job did not know the name of Jesus, but he knew he needed a mediator between him and God. Thus, no other religion provides satisfaction. The man who sees God in nature, who seeks after Him, will be frustrated with any other religion.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
