Science and Spiritual - How??

[CryOfALion]

Well thanks for all the words I suppose. You've provide nonsense and insults for quite some time.

Like I said, you give me "female dog," I will give you alpha "female dog" back. Feel free to see how I treat my opponents who respectfully disagree with me, some I even respect and befriend. You haven't shown any of that for me to provide. So, remember that Newton's third law in context of discussion, or argument.

By the way, people in the real world don't talk the way you do so it's obvious you've been insulting me for show.

If you were face to face with me right now, and in the past, I would have said everything I said online to your face. Men with sacs that have dropped dont let the anonymity of the Internet change how they interact with people in real life. I said exactly what I meant.

you decide to have a real conversation where you make claims, and those claims are questioned, and you provide evidence and then we discuss said evidence etc then feel free to talk to me and the other sensible people here. Toodaloo.

Ok. Fine.

Seriously, this has become about both of us anyway, not the OP.

I will gladly concede if you will (ironically, I think your "toodaloo" in context of the sake of the thread is actually very adult.)

I think I know what you want and expect. You think you know what I want and expect. I won't address you again until I meet your terms. I would ask (since we have a margin of relative agreement for sake of this thread) ask you do the same.

Man to man, real talk.

EDIT: In some respects, you were more mature than me for saying "toodaloo" first.

 

[selfinflikted]

this thread.

 

[SteveNZ]

May it Rest in Peace ...... LOL

 

[jacknife]

this thread.

comedy gold my friend.

 

[crjmurray]

May it Rest in Peace ...... LOL

My bad for derailing it.

 

[CryOfALion]

May it Rest in Peace ...... LOL

My "bad" too, for derailing.

 

[stevevw]

Theres no sense in someone asking for some evidence for a miracle or something supernatural because you aint going to get it. Even if you do get a story about something that happened and may even be stated that it was witnessed by many and had a write up about it many still wont believe especially if you dont believe in God in the first place. The story of Jesus is an example and non believers will say its all a myth. Even if someone has video evidence they still wont believe it. Look at magicians like Dynamo. they can make anything look like a miracle and supernatural. So people will just say its a setup. So unless it happens to the person themselves they wont believe. But then if it does happen to the person themselves it cant go much further because others wont believe them. So its more or less has to happen to every single non believer in the world to satisfy that level of skepticism and thats not going to happen. Jesus knew this and thats why he said that those who expect to see miracles are a generation who come from a place of evil intent in the first place.

The miracles that happen around the time of Jesus happen for a reason and in that time to prove that Jesus was the son of God. This has impacted on the history of the world and put Jesus up in a place where people are looking and talking about Him. There must have been something great that happened because many claimed similar things but it never stuck or lasted. But now we dont need that level of miracles in today's world. The signs have already been done and salvation cannot come from seeing a miracle. There were people and cities who had seen great things from God and still didn't believe. There have been long periods of time where no miracles have appeared in the past just as it is now.

There are still great works and healings happen but not in the way they did in the time of Jesus. Back then many seen great things no matter what. It was done to Glorify God and to establish and spread the gospel. But there will come a time when Gods spirit will be great again and there will be great things happening again. But now we have to be careful of false Christs and people who claim to do great works in the name of Jesus. Jesus said there would be many and He emphasizes this as He knows that this will happen and it will be easy to fool many. Satan also knows this and he will mimic Jesus to fool people. So there will also be a time when there will be signs and wonders that happen which are from Satan to fool people. But there are certain truths that can be identified that will show if it is from God and true. The bible tell us that only by having faith in the first place that we will know what is the truth. So worrying about great signs and wonders right now is not going to make you believe.
Matthew 12:38-40
Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law answered Jesus. They said, "Teacher, we want to see you do a miracle as a sign (proof)." Jesus answered, "Evil and sinful people are the ones that want to see a miracle for a sign (proof). But no miracle will be given as a sign to those people. The only sign will be the miracle that happened to the prophet Jonah. Jonah was in the stomach of the big fish for three days and three nights. In the same way, the Son of Man will be in the grave three days and three nights."

 

[Heissonear]

How are you getting on with defining your spiritual dynamics, Heiss? Any progress? Or is it still just mumbo-jumbo from mind-blown central?

.

Some only have a Dust Perspective of existence even though the Kingdom of God is in their midst each breath they take.

Acquring and proclaiming only what is earthly and natural, while being devoid in understanding of the Spiritual Powers ruling over mankind, is a dilemma many are facing in this life.

One cannot speak about what they do not know. Some push aside what they should give their life for. The value of the earthly has no comparison to the Power Above the Natural. No comparison.

Again, some dismiss what is Above through ignorance, not enlightenment. Escaping such Spiritual Poverty should be priori but many cling to Naturalism as if they have no other choice.

I've lived in deep Spiritual Poverty. I've lived in Naturalism. I've once had only a Dust-Only-Level Perspective of existence; what is acquired through one's own natural constitution. But giving God a chance to show that He is changed all of those simplistic ways.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a wonderous beginning to dynamically know Him; the awakening of the spirit within man by His doing; the act of demonstrating from Above that He is - by Power above the Natural.

Let Him awaken you! Let Him manifest Himself to you, rather than contunue to conclude you have sized what "spiritual" means, even Power Above the Natural. Acquiring understanding through the Tree of Knowledge is a detour not the path that leads to the Prince of Life.


.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

.

Some only have a Dust Perspective of existence even though the Kingdom of God is in their midst each breath they take.

Acquring and proclaiming only what is earthly and natural, while being devoid in understanding of the Spiritual Powers ruling over mankind, is a dilemma many are facing in this life.

One cannot speak about what they do not know. Some push aside what they should give their life for. The value of the earthly has no comparison to the Power Above the Natural. No comparison.

Again, some dismiss what is Above through ignorance, not enlightenment. Escaping such Spiritual Poverty should be priori but many cling to Naturalism as if they have no other choice.

I've lived in deep Spiritual Poverty. I've lived in Naturalism. I've once had only a Dust-Only-Level Perspective of existence; what is acquired through one's own natural constitution. But giving God a chance to show that He is changed all of those simplistic ways.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a wonderous beginning to dynamically know Him; the awakening of the spirit within man by His doing; the act of demonstrating from Above that He is - by Power above the Natural.

Let Him awaken you! Let Him manifest Himself to you, rather than contunue to conclude you have sized what "spiritual" means, even Power Above the Natural. Acquiring understanding through the Tree of Knowledge is a detour not the path that leads to the Prince of Life.


.

Still no progress with defining "spiritual dynamics" then.

 

[crjmurray]

Still no progress with defining "spiritual dynamics" then.

At least you got an answer.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Theres no sense in someone asking for some evidence for a miracle or something supernatural because you aint going to get it.

What? There is no evidence?

Even if you do get a story about something that happened and may even be stated that it was witnessed by many and had a write up about it many still wont believe especially if you dont believe in God in the first place.

Oh, there could be evidence, but people might not believe it.

Are you arguing that there is no evidence of miracles, or are you arguing that people who have evidence should not share it, because goats might pooh-pooh it?

Even if someone has video evidence they still wont believe it.

Does someone have video evidence?

salvation cannot come from seeing a miracle.

That's fine. I don't need any salvation. I'm just interested in evidence for miracles. Do you have any?

So worrying about great signs and wonders right now is not going to make you believe.

Right, but we're not looking to believe. We're looking for people to support their claims of miracles with evidence.

 

[stevevw]

What? There is no evidence?

There is evidence for God everywhere. Its just many may restrict evidence to a certain type of evidence. I regard the changed lives that have found God or the beauty in Gods creation and life as evidence and a miracle. But the types of miracles that happened at the time of Jesus are not happening very often now.

Oh, there could be evidence, but people might not believe it.

So it comes down to belief and thats what I just said. What level of evidence would satisfy you. I would imagine you would say you had to see it with your own eyes. So therefore anything apart from that you will not believe, is that correct. But even if you did see something chances are you will doubt and try to find a logical explanation. Why is that, because you dont believe in anything supernatural in the first place. So it comes down to belief. Having evidence does not equate to belief. Lack of evidence does not mean it isn't true. So it does come down to what you are believing to begin with.

Are you arguing that there is no evidence of miracles, or are you arguing that people who have evidence should not share it, because goats might pooh-pooh it?

I think as if someone who truly experienced a miracle from God would be going around showing off with it. Anyone who is going around claiming miracles and having themselves in the spot light is very suspect.

Does

someone have video evidence?

If you look at all the videos of all things supernatural in the world can you say that none may have something supernatural about them. There are some strange things caught on video. There are a lot of false things as well. But not all have been explained. So amoung all that there could be something that defies explanation and is classed as supernatural. but I say this not as evidence for God but as evidence that maybe supernatural things can happen. Because that is really what we are talking about. As far as God and miracles I am not sure. I have read some stories and I have seen cases on video of miraculous things. But as far as a limb growing back before your eyes no I have never seen anything like that.

That's fine. I don't need any salvation. I'm just interested in evidence for miracles. Do you have any?

No only in my life and others I have seen with the transformations. But that is what I am saying, I think that the types of miracles that happened with Jesus and the disciples in that time like the blind seeing and the dead coming back to life were only for around that time. It was to specifically show that Jesus was real and the Son of God. Otherwise everyone would be saying yeah He's just another one of those crazy preachers. But instead it has had an impact and it started the Christian movement and is still saving lives today. It has achieved what it set out to do.

But there will be a time where this will happen again.As it was needed back then it will have its place sometime in the future as the bible says. There will be signs and wonders happening. But at the same time there will be false prophets who will do things that fool people into thinking they have powers. This will be the time of great signs and wonders.

Right, but we're not looking to believe. We're looking for people to support their claims of miracles with evidence.

Well I'm afraid that I cant help you with that one. I read that someone said why should I believe to be able to see Gods qualities. Why can I see them now. We can see them now its just when you look through the eyes of a worldly skeptic all you will see is the material things. When I look at the moon or a star floating in space I see Gods greatness. That is a miracle to me. How do those celestial objects just float in their places so perfectly alined like a giant clock. How does a living and breathing earth be so perfect for life to exist. I see Gods qualities written all over it. But I will see this because I accepted Gods invitation and opened the door to see things the way He sees them. Well just a glimpse really.

As the bible says that we all know of Gods invisible qualities through His creation. But some will look and not see because they let the things of this world and mans foolish wisdom get in the way.

 

[Loudmouth]

Theres no sense in someone asking for some evidence for a miracle or something supernatural because you aint going to get it.

This is very different from ages past. In the ancient world, no one thought that the supernatural was undetectable in the natural world. They saw the direct actions of gods everywhere in nature.

The problem for supernaturalism is that science came about, and we started finding natural causes that had nothing to do with deities. What we see now is a whole host of excuses as to why supernaturalism is indistinguishable from non-existence.

"One often hears that there is no conflict between science and religion. For instance, in a review of Johnson's book, Stephen Gould remarks that science and religion do not come into conflict, because `science treats factual reality, while religion treats [sic] human morality.' [Gould, S.J. "Impeaching a Self- Appointed Judge". Book Review of "Darwin on Trial," by Phillip E. Johnson, Regnery Gateway: Washington, D.C., 1991, Scientific American, July 1992, pp.92-95, pp.94] On most things I tend to agree with Gould, but here I think he goes too far; the meaning of religion is defined by what religious people actually believe, and the great majority of the world's religious people would be surprised to learn that religion has nothing to do with factual reality. But Gould's view is widespread today among scientists and religious liberals. This seems to me to represent an important retreat of religion from positions it once occupied. Once nature seemed inexplicable without a nymph in every brook and a dryad in every tree. Even as late as the nineteenth century the design of plants and animals was regarded as visible evidence of a creator. There are still countless things in nature that we cannot explain, but we think we know the principles that govern the way they work. Today for real mystery one has to look to cosmology and elementary particle physics. For those who see no conflict between science and religion, the retreat of religion from the ground occupied by science is nearly complete." (Weinberg, S., "Dreams of a Final Theory," Pantheon: New York NY, 1992, pp.249-250)​