Saved by Grace doesn't mean our works don't matter. Ephesian's over all context screams this.

[HIM]

I can not find a single English translation of Revelation 3:21 that makes sitting with Jesus on His throne contingent on overcoming just as He overcame. If you know of one, please share it.

Contingent? Probably most. Here is the KJV
Contingncy one, if any hears and opens He comes in.
Contingency 2 to him that overcomes will He grant to sit in His throne. Even as He over came and sits in His Fathers throne.

Take care…

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[HIM]

The point being made was that the one to whom the knocking was being made was one that already had their ears opened.
22-What the Spirit saith unto the churches(the called out assembly). That is the group of the elect.
"HE THAT HATH AN EAR LET HIM HEAR." it is written to ALL but at this time only to the elect that God has given Him. Their turn will
come once the faith is upon them and not just unto them. Rom 3:22

No, the text says any man who hears not those who hear
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

In other words There are those who do not hear who are in the called out assembly. Other wise why say any man that hears in the church.

 

[fhansen]

What one says about salvation quite often reveals what he believes about salvation. The OP postulates that being saved by grace doesn't mean our works don't matter, meaning of course that if our works don't measure up to His requirements then we are not saved. And you have confirmed here that a person's salvation ultimately depends on how well he lives out his salvation. Do people say things like these if they don't believe them to be true? I don't think so.

Why does it matter? Because God has chosen to save people from eternal damnation who put all their trust in Christ (John 3:16; 1 Cor 1:21).

Flesh that out with all of Scripture. Putting one's trust in God means doing His will as much as anything else. If I believe in God-and especially if I hope in and love God- I will act in such a way as to please Him, with the power of His grace. Otherwise we're mocking Him and the sacrifice of His Son. If one understands the gospel then they'll understand that the demands of such passages as the following have not changed one iota under the New Covenant:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

If our faith doesn't lead to that, then it's worthless.

 

[fhansen]

It is a gift, thus you have nothing to do with it being gifted to you, it is His election of you. If you are born of the Spirit it is simply because
God had predestined you to begin becoming His son that day. Did you hear the word of truth prior to this day?

We don't know who the elect are with perfect certainly until the next life. He gifts us, He graces us, He wants none to perish, and yet some will. They'll refuse to answer when he calls, or they'll turn back away later on, failing to persevere.

Rev 3:21 To Him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with Me in my throne, even as also I OVERCAME, and am sit down in my Fathers throne.
How can you miss it it's right there. You wanna position of authority, you have to overcome just as He did, purge yourself, be pure, be Holy.
1 Jo 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Let the devil have nothing in you!

Amen

 

[Samson2021]

We don't know who the elect are with perfect certainly until the next life. He gifts us, He graces us, He wants none to perish, and yet some will. They'll refuse to answer when he calls, or they'll turn back away later on, failing to persevere.

No. Jesus paid the price for ALL. And He will have ALL, as He destroyed him that had the power of death. He took away the sin of the world
and in doing so, wiped the slate clean for every human being ever born. Grace will always overcome sin. Rom 5:20-21

If you never get to hear/read this again know that ALL have already been justified unto life by His sacrifice. Rom 5:18
ALL will enter into the life purchased by Him with His own blood, but in a specific order, that only the Father knows. 1 Co 15:21-23
Once all the Times have been fulfilled. Eph 1:10 (First death, Second death ????) He will have gathered everyone together in Christ as a
single body, reconciled back to Himself with Jesus at the Head. Eph 2:14-16 (Christ the new man)

The blinder to this truth is self righteousness. We both know that the elect are the elect purely by the Fathers grace and they did nothing
to deserve that. Thus His elect. We also know that He desires/will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
We also know that it was God that placed all men under condemnation, and in like fashion He has justified the same ALL due to
the one righteous act of Jesus Christ.
Since salvation cannot be earned, but you must be graced with it, then the salvation of mankind is purely in the Fathers hands. For
no man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him. Thus the order of the reconciliation is entirely up to Him and His call.
Paul is the perfect example of a non repentant sinner that wanted nothing to do with Jesus other than persecute the church.
And look what God did for/to him. 1 Ti 1:13-14 That is grace, that is the starting point for each individual.
There is a first TIME, and we are in it now, as we are the FIRST FRUITS, there will be another after the kingdom reign on the earth.
It is a 1000yr Sabbath day, and then it starts over again. The first fruits are fully matured perfected sons that will rule with Jesus
and help in the perfecting of the next group during the second death. Oba 1:21 The mount of Esau are those not elected in the first.
And most likely a lot of them will be those called in this TIME but never overcame. That cycle will continue until Eph 1:10 is fulfilled.

Consider that Satan is locked up for the 1000yr reign, then let out to deceive, then fire from heaven destroys all flesh and then the
judgement according to works. Why? If God was just gonna throw them into an eternal tormenting fire, why judge according to works?
Its simple, They are judged to see where they left off in the first TIME and they will return to the same place they left off to continue,
until all have come to be mature sons in Christ. Overcomers. Each must overcome their own flesh, the world, the devil etc.... how long
that takes each person is a variable.

We were all chosen from within the Father, and predestined to be sons, by adoption through Jesus Christ, before time began. When
each individual soul that was placed on the earth is called they are called to begin the process of becoming that son. Thats why you
can't earn the right. Its all His call. His choice. "As many as the Father hast given Me" John 17:11 John 17:24

To add just a bit. Know that the world as we know it, is perfect at this time and it is in the state that it is due to that being the will of the
Father. This state is a perfect environment for the perfecting of sons in an environment of good and evil. Perfecting faith without seeing,
perfecting love that we have received by bringing it to maturity with forgiveness of sin against us.
That will be reconstructed with Satan, governments(beast) false prophet(religions), death and the grave in the second death TIME.
When the last individual is made alive in Christ, by the Fathers choice, then death will have been destroyed even though he who had
the power of death has already been destroyed by the cross of Christ. All sin debt paid. Then will all enemies of Christ have been put
under His feet /or in subjection to Him as the head of the body of Christ.

Study it, you will see it. Toss the doctrines of men and get your info from the Holy Ghost. It runs deep in Romans 3, 5, 11, 1 Co 15, 1 Ti 4
Eph 1 and 2, and more.

 

[Samson2021]

No, the text says any man who hears not those who hear
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

In other words There are those who do not hear who are in the called out assembly. Other wise why say any man that hears in the church.

Well you neglect to see that the letter was written to the called out (elect). That said there were those who quit listening to their internal guide
and simply sat down thinking they knew all there was to know, obviously they didn't see or hear what they needed to see and hear.
That warning is just to the church that finds themselves, in whatever century, in that situation. Self examination.
The highlighted portion is correct. They have stopped listening.

 

[AbbaLove]

In other words There are those who do not hear who are in the called out assembly. Other wise why say any man that hears in the church.

That sounds like RCC doctrine ... those that have been taught that when they were springled with holy water as an infant they were "born again" to eternal life.

the "called out assembly" are those that ... "hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me". Also referred to as "the chosen ones"

The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." Thus the "church" interprets the meaning to fit their doctrine.

 

[Samson2021]

That sounds like RCC doctrine ... those that have been taught that when they were springled with holy water as an infant they were "born again" to eternal life.

the "called out assembly" are those that ... "hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me". Also referred to as "the chosen ones"

The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." Thus the "church" interprets the meaning to fit their doctrine.

Let us be quite clear. Those that the Father has drawn to Jesus are the ekklesia. These are the ones who have drawn back in that group.
Jesus need not say a thing to those who have not been drawn to Him yet, as they have not been given to Him yet. John 17:11 John 17:24
He is perfecting the first fruits only at this present time. A remnant according to the election of grace. Rom 11:5

I would disagree in that the ekklesia in that group He has a few things against them. And He tells what those things are in each letter.
If we used context here we could say that it only applied to that group way back then, but I think we all know it applies to any elect
at any time. If the shoe fits right?

Your def of ekklesia is correct and I agree 100%, even the meaning of the word church is something the world "goes to" now instead of
being composed of those that truly are CALLED OUT from among humanity. Plenty of churches, but not many ekklesia.

 

[B Griffin]

It isn't an invitation. Ask Paul in 1 Ti 1:13-14 He wasn't invited it was a chosen/election issue. After he realized what happened he was more
than glad that he got chosen.

It is an invitation.

• ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ (Mt 22:8–9)
  
  
• 15 Now when one of those who sat at the table with Him heard these things, he said to Him, “Blessed is he who shall eat bread in the kingdom of God!”
  
  16 Then He said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, 17 and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, ‘Come, for all things are now ready.’ 18 But they all with one accord began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a piece of ground, and I must go and see it. I ask you to have me excused.’ 19 And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I ask you to have me excused.’ 20 Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ 21 So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.’ 22 And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’ 23 Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.’ ” (Lk 14:15–24)

And telling people that they can't respond if they are not chosen and they can't resist if they are chosen is at odds with the one who calls.

 

[Samson2021]

It is an invitation.

• ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ (Mt 22:8–9)
  
  
• 15 Now when one of those who sat at the table with Him heard these things, he said to Him, “Blessed is he who shall eat bread in the kingdom of God!”
  
  16 Then He said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, 17 and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, ‘Come, for all things are now ready.’ 18 But they all with one accord began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a piece of ground, and I must go and see it. I ask you to have me excused.’ 19 And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I ask you to have me excused.’ 20 Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ 21 So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.’ 22 And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’ 23 Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.’ ” (Lk 14:15–24)

And telling people that they can't respond if they are not chosen and they can't resist if they are chosen is at odds with the one who calls.

That is all good but the invited guests were just that guests, not the BRIDE. Matt 22:10............and the wedding hall was filled with GUESTS.

 

[B Griffin]

Rev 3:21 To Him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with Me in my throne, even as also I OVERCAME, and am sit down in my Fathers throne.
How can you miss it it's right there. You wanna position of authority, you have to overcome just as He did, purge yourself, be pure, be Holy.
1 Jo 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Let the devil have nothing in you!

Jesus overcame sin, death itself, and hell on our behalf. We overcome all those things because He overcame them. Thinking that we will rule with Him because we perform like He performed is not written anywhere in Scripture, it is unattainable, and dissrespectful.

 

[B Griffin]

Contingent? Probably most. Here is the KJV
Contingncy one, if any hears and opens He comes in.
Contingency 2 to him that overcomes will He grant to sit in His throne. Even as He over came and sits in His Fathers throne.

Take care…

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus overcame sin, death itself, and hell on our behalf. We overcome all those things because He overcame them. Thinking that we will rule with Him because we perform like He performed is not written anywhere in Scripture, it is unattainable, and dissrespectful.

 

[B Griffin]

Flesh that out with all of Scripture. Putting one's trust in God means doing His will as much as anything else. If I believe in God-and especially if I hope in and love God- I will act in such a way as to please Him, with the power of His grace. Otherwise we're mocking Him and the sacrifice of His Son. If one understands the gospel then they'll understand that the demands of such passages as the following have not changed one iota under the New Covenant:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

If our faith doesn't lead to that, then it's worthless.

Actually,

1. Faith in Christ leads to Sonship -- "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." (Ga 3:26),
2. Sonship necessarily means that the Spirit of Christ has entered our hearts -- "And because you are (present tense) sons, God has sent forth (aorist tense, i.e., simple past tense) the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, 'Abba, Father!'" (Ga 4:6), and
3. Sonship necessarily means we are subject to the Father's correction -- "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. (Heb 12:7–8)

As children of God, we do not need to worry that we will wake up one day a million miles away from God, not knowing how we got there or how to get back to Him. He does not leave us alone, but He leads, guides, teaches, directs, corrects, and comforts us from inside our hearts. His correction is not pleasant, but painful (Heb 12:11), but it is effective in keeping us in line with His will for us (Heb 12:11).

A person's "faith" is worthless only if it does not lead to the sonship that comes from the Spirit of God living in a person's heart.

 

[B Griffin]

No. Jesus paid the price for ALL. And He will have ALL, as He destroyed him that had the power of death. He took away the sin of the world
and in doing so, wiped the slate clean for every human being ever born. Grace will always overcome sin. Rom 5:20-21

If you never get to hear/read this again know that ALL have already been justified unto life by His sacrifice. Rom 5:18
ALL will enter into the life purchased by Him with His own blood, but in a specific order, that only the Father knows. 1 Co 15:21-23
Once all the Times have been fulfilled. Eph 1:10 (First death, Second death ????) He will have gathered everyone together in Christ as a
single body, reconciled back to Himself with Jesus at the Head. Eph 2:14-16 (Christ the new man)

The blinder to this truth is self righteousness. We both know that the elect are the elect purely by the Fathers grace and they did nothing
to deserve that. Thus His elect. We also know that He desires/will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
We also know that it was God that placed all men under condemnation, and in like fashion He has justified the same ALL due to
the one righteous act of Jesus Christ.
Since salvation cannot be earned, but you must be graced with it, then the salvation of mankind is purely in the Fathers hands. For
no man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him. Thus the order of the reconciliation is entirely up to Him and His call.
Paul is the perfect example of a non repentant sinner that wanted nothing to do with Jesus other than persecute the church.
And look what God did for/to him. 1 Ti 1:13-14 That is grace, that is the starting point for each individual.
There is a first TIME, and we are in it now, as we are the FIRST FRUITS, there will be another after the kingdom reign on the earth.
It is a 1000yr Sabbath day, and then it starts over again. The first fruits are fully matured perfected sons that will rule with Jesus
and help in the perfecting of the next group during the second death. Oba 1:21 The mount of Esau are those not elected in the first.
And most likely a lot of them will be those called in this TIME but never overcame. That cycle will continue until Eph 1:10 is fulfilled.

Consider that Satan is locked up for the 1000yr reign, then let out to deceive, then fire from heaven destroys all flesh and then the
judgement according to works. Why? If God was just gonna throw them into an eternal tormenting fire, why judge according to works?
Its simple, They are judged to see where they left off in the first TIME and they will return to the same place they left off to continue,
until all have come to be mature sons in Christ. Overcomers. Each must overcome their own flesh, the world, the devil etc.... how long
that takes each person is a variable.

We were all chosen from within the Father, and predestined to be sons, by adoption through Jesus Christ, before time began. When
each individual soul that was placed on the earth is called they are called to begin the process of becoming that son. Thats why you
can't earn the right. Its all His call. His choice. "As many as the Father hast given Me" John 17:11 John 17:24

To add just a bit. Know that the world as we know it, is perfect at this time and it is in the state that it is due to that being the will of the
Father. This state is a perfect environment for the perfecting of sons in an environment of good and evil. Perfecting faith without seeing,
perfecting love that we have received by bringing it to maturity with forgiveness of sin against us.
That will be reconstructed with Satan, governments(beast) false prophet(religions), death and the grave in the second death TIME.
When the last individual is made alive in Christ, by the Fathers choice, then death will have been destroyed even though he who had
the power of death has already been destroyed by the cross of Christ. All sin debt paid. Then will all enemies of Christ have been put
under His feet /or in subjection to Him as the head of the body of Christ.

Study it, you will see it. Toss the doctrines of men and get your info from the Holy Ghost. It runs deep in Romans 3, 5, 11, 1 Co 15, 1 Ti 4
Eph 1 and 2, and more.

Is this universalism? Sounds like it. Don't I remember correctly that Universalism can't be promoted on CF?

Edit-- I did find it in the notes to the rules (parenthisis mine):

Unorthodox Christian theology (which includes universalism) may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum.

 

[fhansen]

Actually,

1. Faith in Christ leads to Sonship -- "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." (Ga 3:26),
2. Sonship necessarily means that the Spirit of Christ has entered our hearts -- "And because you are (present tense) sons, God has sent forth (aorist tense, i.e., simple past tense) the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, 'Abba, Father!'" (Ga 4:6), and
3. Sonship necessarily means we are subject to the Father's correction -- "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. (Heb 12:7–8)

As children of God, we do not need to worry that we will wake up one day a million miles away from God, not knowing how we got there or how to get back to Him. He does not leave us alone, but He leads, guides, teaches, directs, corrects, and comforts us from inside our hearts. His correction is not pleasant, but painful (Heb 12:11), but it is effective in keeping us in line with His will for us (Heb 12:11).

A person's "faith" is worthless only if it does not lead to the sonship that comes from the Spirit of God living in a person's heart.

Anyone can return to the flesh, can fail to do God's will, to persevere, to overcome sin, can resist the Spirit and lose their status as sons, which is why believers are exhorted, admonished, and warned against those things. Your freedom is not removed by rebirth.

 

[Samson2021]

Anyone can return to the flesh, can fail to do God's will, to persevere, to overcome sin, can resist the Spirit and lose their status as sons, which is why believers are exhorted, admonished, and warned against those things. Your freedom is not removed by rebirth.

You might want to consider that the gift (salvation initial) is irrevocable, He will not repent of the giving.
In Gods way of looking at things He sees your sonship (working it out) as already a done deal. How long that takes, who knows,
but God views this from outside of time thus it is a finished work in you, even though you believe it isn't yet.
The admonishing is for trying to get those who are destined to become the first fruits to become the first fruits and not wait on the next
dispensation.
Consider, since God gave you the faith and love of Jesus Christ, and He will not repent of the giving, but you fall away, is He now obliged to
torture you along with that faith and love you received? No as He sees you as a finished, perfected son and will do whatever needs to be done
to get you across that finish line. You will bear your own cross eventually.
That is true judgement. He chose you from within Himself to be a son, before time began, and thats exactly what He will get, a mature son.
How much chastisement is necessary? Who knows, but we all will be partakers of the chastisement.

 

[HIM]

Jesus overcame sin, death itself, and hell on our behalf. We overcome all those things because He overcame them. Thinking that we will rule with Him because we perform like He performed is not written anywhere in Scripture, it is unattainable, and dissrespectful.

HIM said:
Contingent? Probably most. Here is the KJV
Contingncy one, if any hears and opens He comes in.
Contingency 2 to him that overcomes will He grant to sit in His throne. Even as He over came and sits in His Fathers throne.

NOT,” Thinking that we will rule with Him because we perform like He performed.”
Take care…

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[fhansen]

You might want to consider that the gift (salvation initial) is irrevocable, He will not repent of the giving.

Nah, and this is an unfortunate misunderstanding of the gospel. He wants none to perish but we still can. He loves us but will we continue to love Him? And isn't your view universalism anyway?

 

[Samson2021]

So what is your understanding of how one loses what one never could earn?

Or are you saying you need to establish your own righteousness in order to keep the gift?

 

[fhansen]

So what is your understanding of how one loses what one never could earn?

Or are you saying you need to establish your own righteousness in order to keep the gift?

It's a good question. And the way it's understood historically is that man cannot possibly find his way back home to God. One part of man, in his pride, doesn’t even want God-and wouldn’t know where to look for Him anyway. But he has an unfulfilled void, a sense of something missing, something necessary, something “bigger” than himself or anyone else, and should develop a hunger and thirst for truth and righteousness in a world that so often scoffs at and tramples upon both. But in any case, God must come to man with the answer. But man is not passive in all this because he can say “no”. Adam was the first to say no in Eden and if God’s purpose was simply to outright cause man to say yes then he would’ve done so then, instead of allowing man that freedom to begin with. All of the evil that we experience or know in this world, the atrocities that man has committed against man, the unnecessary victimization that so many have suffered down through the centuries, that we’ve all suffered to one degree or another, was made possible by that gift of freedom, and would be superfluous, gratuitous, if God hasn’t been in the business of patiently working on drawing a willing “yes” from man all this time, of encouraging man to turn away from that evil to something much better than this world has to offer. This work of God's culminated in the advent of His Son in the "fullness of time", when man was just ready to receive that full light, that full revelation of God.

Any authentic righteousness comes from God. Man’s problem was in confiscating that authority from God, in man being his own “god” IOW, determining right and wrong for himself. This first occurred in Eden, and we carry on the family tradition until we’re finally ready to give it up as grace moves us to do so. But don’t make the error in thinking that we cannot resist that grace, either at the beginning of conversion or at any point later in our lives. Conversion is a life-long process and no one attains to the resurrection until the end of their lives, even as their new life has its beginning in the here and now. With our freedom together with the experience, grace, revelation, and time we have we continue to work out our salvation, we continue in choosing good over evil, life over death. It’s about who we are, who we become in light of all Jesus did for us, with the power of His grace now, not who we’re merely imputed to be. Salvation is a gift-and a daily choice. That’s the beauty, and the risk, of having been given the gift of free will.

We’re made in the image of God. Until we begin to value that image, we won’t embrace the grace that empowers us to be it.