Saved by Grace doesn't mean our works don't matter. Ephesian's over all context screams this.

[Samson2021]

We have to Have faith in Christ to have the faith of Christ. Without the faith of Christ being manifested in us we are lost

No offense but thats backwards.

It is the faith of Christ along with His love that we are filled with at the time of our spiritual birth.

1 Ti 1:14 Oh, How generous and gracious our Lord was! HE FILLED ME with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus. NLT

It is from the fullness of the Son of God that we receive both faith in and love of the Father and Jesus Christ. John 1:16

 

[d taylor]

Salvation is now and then. If we don't live the life now through Him we won't then.

-
​

Show a verse stating a person must life now through Jesus to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[fhansen]

with our consent?????? If thats not conceit I do not know what is!

And how is doing the right thing-doing what we're supposed to do anyway- a matter of conceit?????? If I allow the Dr to operate does that mean I'm conceited? Have you considered just why faith pleases God so much?

You are correct in regards to garnering kindness, that is why it is a gift. The rejection is in not becoming the son you were empowered
to become, not your initial spiritual birth.

We can die again just as Adam was alive, and then died. What difference would it be if I didn't become the son I was supposed to be as long as I still made it to heaven? Instead, becoming who we are created to be is salvation.

This quote is very true but it applies rather to the ones who are attempting to get a foothold in the kingdom as they are already
born of the Spirit.

I'm really not sure what that could possibly mean. They're born of the Spirit but still need to get a foothold in the Kingdom? The passage means what it says, and if one's sins aren't forgiven then they won't be entering the kingdom and seeing God in any case. The price of our entrance into heaven is our love, the love that He's shown us and the love that He's given us, the love that we've then embraced and acted upon. That's where that forgiveness, for example, comes from-and why He's admonishing us to do it because of our possibility of failing to do it. Love, like faith and hope, are both gifts of grace, and human choices. To the extent that we accept those gifts and act upon them, we're becoming the people we were created to be, leaving the old man behind, no longer slaves to sin but slaves to the righteousness that leads to eternal life (Rom 6:15-23).

 

[Samson2021]

And how is doing the right thing-doing what we're supposed to do anyway- a matter of conceit?????? If I allow the Dr to operate does that mean I'm conceited? Have you considered just why faith pleases God so much?

We can die again just as Adam was alive, and then died. What difference would it be if I didn't become the son I was supposed to be as long as I still made it to heaven? Instead, becoming who we are created to be is salvation.

I'm really not sure what that could possibly mean. They're born of the Spirit but still need to get a foothold in the Kingdom? The passage means what it says, and if one's sins aren't forgiven then they won't be entering the kingdom and seeing God in any case. The price of our entrance into heaven is our love, the love that He's shown us and the love that He's given us, the love that we've then embraced and acted upon. That's where that forgiveness, for example, comes from-and why He's admonishing us to do it because of our possibility of failing to do it. Love, like faith and hope, are both gifts of grace, and human choices. To the extent that we accept those gifts and act upon them, we're becoming the people we were created to be, leaving the old man behind, no longer slaves to sin but slaves to the righteousness that leads to eternal life (Rom 6:15-23).

The conceit is in your thinking that God needs your consent to elect you.
Well I can tell you really are not picking up the good stuff. You, if born again, must become the son you were predestined to become in
order to get into the Kingdom, if not you'll be like a premature birth, not ready for life in the spirit.
Being born again only allows one to see the kingdom. Jhn 3:3
Becoming as a little child and continually asking why, knocking on the door for it to be opened, seeking answers that is the entering as
it is what matures you. The answers applied to your life to crucify the flesh and strengthen the spirit so that it is in control of
your body and mind. That is the must do. A ticket to heaven is not the kingdom. Becoming the son is.

 

[B Griffin]

Yes, this is a good way to understand it. Some use the term "initial justification". Because if one is justified, then they're saved. But we can fail to walk in this new justice, we can return to the flesh, etc, living unjustly, IOW, and therefore compromise our salvation.

Just to be clear, you are talking about a baby being saved when baptized, then "return to the flesh" later in life and compromise his/her salvation?

 

[fhansen]

Just to be clear, you are talking about a baby being saved when baptized, then "return to the flesh" later in life and compromise his/her salvation?

I'm talking about salvation being more than just saving some poor wretched sinner but about God perfecting His creation, bringing it to the fulfillment of the ultimate purpose He created it for. And for man now this means to struggle, with the choice of good over evil, which means that he can finally come to love God with his whole heart, soul, mind and strength and his neighbor as himself. That is where his righteousness-and purpose or telos- lies. This is to begin here on earth and be fully consummated only in the next life.

Our wills are necessarily involved in this journey from beginning to end, weakly at first but with increasing strength and conviction as we proceed. God must draw and move us towards Himself, towards this love, but we can always say "no", either at the beginning, refusing to open the door when He knocks, or at any point later on; anyone can return to the flesh. He's after our "yes", and has been patiently in the business of eliciting it since Eden. We must say it continuously, picking up our cross and following daily, to the best we can. Man is like a flower with the ability to prevent his own blossoming. He has no part in the origin of the plant and of its blossoming-he created no part of it and doesn't orchestrate its process. He only cooperates with it, or he doesn't-and hinders it. Faith is that first yes, that cooperation in our becoming who we were created to be.

 

[Samson2021]

We must say it continuously, picking up our cross and following daily, to the best we can. Man is like a flower with the ability to prevent his own blossoming. He has no part in the origin of the plant and of its blossoming-he created no part of it and doesn't orchestrate its process. He only cooperates with it, or he doesn't-and hinders it. Faith is that first yes, that cooperation in our becoming who we were created to be.

Your close here. The only real problem is that mans will never trumps Gods. Through His Judgement you will be processed, over time,
to choose Gods will for your life. As His will for you is far better than your own.
Sometimes the flower needs an extra day or two of sunlight to be forced open.
That is what He does with the one who turns back or is a blasphemer even though initially saved. 1 Ti 1:20 Ex. Turn em back over to
Satan to learn?? Through suffering.
Your head faith has nothing to do with it. It is the faith of JC imparted to you by God that brings initial salvation.
"HE filled me with faith and love that come from Jesus Christ" 1 Ti 1:14 NLT
"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Gal 4:6
God sees it as already finished "because ye are sons" the Spirit of the Son is sent into your heart to accomplish that end result.
It will be accomplished as that was the original intent and it will come to pass as His word does not return to Him without accomplishing
that to which it was sent.
I will start a new thread about Israel in the time of captivity to Egypt, to show the analogy of the chosen of God. Maybe that will help.

 

[fhansen]

The only real problem is that mans will never trumps Gods.

If man's will cannot trump God's, at His allowance, then there would've been no original sin in Eden, no sin following that, and no hell. Hell is for those who obstinately refuse to do His will on earth- as it's done in heaven. It's God's will that we have that degree of freedom. And He, alone, knows the final outcome of our choices with perfect certainty.

 

[B Griffin]

I'm talking about salvation being more than just saving some poor wretched sinner but about God perfecting His creation, bringing it to the fulfillment of the ultimate purpose He created it for.

So salvation is not about raising the dead to life, but about a journey that finds its reward only at the end of a life well lived?

And for man now this means to struggle, with the choice of good over evil, which means that he can finally come to love God with his whole heart, soul, mind and strength and his neighbor as himself. That is where his righteousness-and purpose or telos- lies. This is to begin here on earth and be fully consummated only in the next life.

Our wills are necessarily involved in this journey from beginning to end, weakly at first but with increasing strength and conviction as we proceed.

What is the measure of success? It can't be relative things like "I'm better than that other person" or "I make fewer mistakes now than before". Seems like the inevitable end of having no measuring stick is that we must wait until the final judgment to find out if our "best" is good enough.

God must draw and move us towards Himself, towards this love, but we can always say "no", either at the beginning, refusing to open the door when he knocks, or at any point later on; anyone can return to the flesh.

This is very confusing. I knew I was a poor wretched sinner when I opened my heart's door to Jesus and He came in. But Catholics don't believe this, right? You all believe people are saved when they are baptized as infants, when they have no ability to say "yes" or "no", right? Are you referring to something else when you say, "at the beginning, refusing to open the door when he knocks"?

He's after our "yes", and has been patiently in the business of eliciting it since Eden. We must say it continuously, picking up our cross and following to the best we can. Man is like a flower with the ability to prevent his own blossoming-and we're only seedlings right now.

 

[Samson2021]

If man's will cannot trump God's, at His allowance, then there would've been no original sin in Eden, no sin following that, and no hell. Hell is for those who obstinately refuse to do His will on earth- as it's done in heaven. It's God's will that we have that degree of freedom. And He, alone, knows the final outcome of our choices with perfect certainty.

Hell is nothing more than the grave. Look it up.
God by design allowed Adam to fall, and subsequently condemned ALL the future human race on purpose.
That reasoning was to eventually reconcile the whole, back to Himself through Jesus Christ.
"For since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead." Not some but all, as ALL die so will ALL live.
After the perfecting of Jesus Christ we receive of His fullness (Faith in God, Love of God) to begin to overcome the world and Satan,
through denying the flesh of its carnal desires, and destroying our own carnal minds. He gave you the enemies to overcome.
He made them for your perfecting in a realm you cannot comprehend for the moment.
When your perfecting is accomplished you too will be a son of God with power that has sat down with Jesus in our Fathers throne.
(position of authority), not like you can do that on your own, or would have imagined that for yourself?
You were part of the Father, just as all things are/were. He chose you from within Himself, before the foundation of the world,
to become spiritually independent as a new creation that never existed before, His son. You were nothing more than a cell of say
His being, who is to become something that you cannot truly understand for now.
When it is all finished you will see that what was done on the earth, from start to finish, by Him was for your own good.
And you will rejoice in that understanding!
And as explained above that is the outcome in perfect certainty.

Consider a newly conceived embryo. As it develops in the womb it eventually sees through water, amniotic fluid, then the skin of the mother.
It hears muffled sounds through the same barriers, it struggles within the confined space of the womb as it develops legs, fingers, toes, lungs,
eyes, a nose etc... all the while wondering why are all these things necessary for a watery existence?
Then all of a sudden it is thrust out of the watery womb into the world of breathing air, seeing the world, smelling it, touching it, walking
upon it. It is then that the child understands why its gestation took such a time to complete, so that it was able to survive in the
environment it would eventually exist in. The same can be said for your spirit for it too is in a period of gestation awaiting its resurrection
into the spiritual realm it will exist in for eternity.

 

[fhansen]

So salvation is not about raising the dead to life, but about a journey that finds its reward only at the end of a life well lived?

Salvation is about entering union with God, becoming one of His children. To the extent that we remain in that union good fruit will follow. Yes, our lives must reflect our Parentage. Having a new life means a life well-lived, or else we're still dead, regardless of any profession we may make. To put it another way, salvation and the love God gives and works within us are inseparable.

What is the measure of success? It can't be relative things like "I'm better than that other person" or "I make fewer mistakes now than before". Seems like the inevitable end of having no measuring stick is that we must wait until the final judgment to find out if our "best" is good enough.

Yes, He's the judge, not us, But He gives us guidelines: to know Him, believe in Him, put Him first above all else, obey the commandments, do good, overcome sin, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, forgive others their sins against you, be humble, persevere, etc. All of these are works of the Spirit within us motivated and driven by the "love" He pours into us. And love doesn’t compare itself to others-or compete with others-it just does the best it can to serve others. God knows the measure for each of us, judging by the heart, of how well we should do with the grace given.

This is very confusing. I knew I was a poor wretched sinner when I opened my heart's door to Jesus and He came in. But Catholics don't believe this, right? You all believe people are saved when they are baptized as infants, when they have no ability to say "yes" or "no", right? Are you referring to something else when you say, "at the beginning, refusing to open the door when he knocks"?

The Catholic teaching on salvation is that it's all a matter of grace. Grace precedes everything, either faith or works of grace or anything else. Infant baptism has been practiced since time immemorial and its always been thought that the faith of the family and community stand in for the child until they're old enough to affirm or deny their "baptismal vows". In any case there's a corporate aspect to salvation, with God using people in other people's lives. I was speaking specifically about adult converts in that last post, however.

 

[Samson2021]

This is very confusing. I knew I was a poor wretched sinner when I opened my heart's door to Jesus and He came in. But Catholics don't believe this, right? You all believe people are saved when they are baptized as infants, when they have no ability to say "yes" or "no", right? Are you referring to something else when you say, "at the beginning, refusing to open the door when he knocks"?

Don't know about Catholics but I do know that water baptism is not a baptism in the Holy Ghost and with fire.
Johns baptism was with water as a way of preparing the way of the Lord.
Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. That is the only baptism that counts and makes one born of the Spirit.

You could say that you can refuse to open the door, but that don't matter as God will just knock it down, just as He did to Paul.
1 Ti 1:13-14 When God chooses you it is for no other reason than it is your turn to start working out your own salvation.
You are given opportunity to grow up unto the measuring stick Jesus Christ. Be purged of all fleshly desire and carnal thinking,
and do the will of the Father in your life.

Carnal thinking is thinking you have a say so in your own initial salvation. It was done for you by Jesus and when God lets you in on His
secret you will no doubt have the best day of your human existence.
Continue to believe on His name, continue to pray, continue to practice kingdom principles. But don't think that anything you do
makes you qualified for initial salvation, it is a GIFT.

The Rev 3:20 "I stand at the door and knock" is written to a specific group and they are of the elect, whether then or now.
It was said to them for they thought they had everything they needed already, but didn't. They still needed wisdom and understanding,
they were still blinded to higher truth, and naked spiritually.

 

[AbbaLove]

The following text in Ephesians is to often ripped out of context to imply it doesn't matter what we do because we are saved by grace.

Eph 2:8.9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes! More than a few of today's pastors preach a watered down message because it appeals to lukewarm believers who are told they are "born again" and God's Grace is sufficient without post salvation works/deeds as a sign of the fruits of His Spirit.

Typical of today's seeker-sensitive Christianity that has become a hyper-grace fake Christianity (. It is evident by pastors misinterpreting Romans 7 (living under the law) as also applying to a born again new creation in Christ.

Another fallacy of seeker sensitive hyper-grace Christianity is the belief that it's impossible to stop sinning. A misguided Christian will question the words of Jesus when He says to the healed man ... "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen" and to the woman ... "Go and sin no more".

Another indication that hyper-grace is false salvation with little if no evidence of good fruit leading to good deeds because they still continue to sin.

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers'" (Matthew 7:21-23)​

 

[HIM]

The Rev 3:20 "I stand at the door and knock" is written to a specific group and they are of the elect

Yeah anyone who hears His voice AND OPENS the door AND OVERCOMES EVEN AS HE DID will be granted to sit with Him in His throne in heavenly places through the veil that is to say His flesh in the presence of God..

When?
Now for therein is the victory.

Even as He overcame?
How did Jesus overcome?


Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Samson2021]

Yeah anyone who hears His voice AND OPENS the door AND OVERCOMES EVEN AS HE DID will be granted to sit with Him in His throne in heavenly places through the veil that is to say His flesh in the presence of God..

When?
Now for therein is the victory.

Even as He overcame?
How did Jesus overcome?


Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The point being made was that the one to whom the knocking was being made was one that already had their ears opened.
22-What the Spirit saith unto the churches(the called out assembly). That is the group of the elect.
"HE THAT HATH AN EAR LET HIM HEAR." it is written to ALL but at this time only to the elect that God has given Him. Their turn will
come once the faith is upon them and not just unto them. Rom 3:22

 

[B Griffin]

Salvation is about entering union with God, becoming one of His children. To the extent that we remain in that union good fruit will follow. Yes, our lives must reflect our Parentage. Having a new life means a life well-lived life, or else we're still dead, regardless of any profession we may make. To put it another way, salvation and the love God gives and works within us are inseparable.

Yes, He's the judge, not us, But He gives us guidelines: to know Him, believe in Him, put Him first above all else, obey the commandments, do good, overcome sin, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, forgive others their sins against you, be humble, persevere, etc. All of these are works of the Spirit within us motivated and driven by the "love" He pours into us. And love doesn’t compare itself to others-or compete with others-it just does the best it can to serve others. God knows the measure for each of us, judging by the heart, of how well we should do with the grace given.

The Catholic teaching on salvation is that its all a matter of grace. Grace precedes everything, either or works of grace or anything else. Infant baptism has ben practiced since time immemorial and its always been thought that the faith of the family and community stand in for the child until they're old enough to affirm or deny their "baptismal vows". In any case there's a corporate aspect to salvation, with God using people in other people's lives. I was speaking specifically about adult converts in that last post, however.

What one says about salvation quite often reveals what he believes about salvation. The OP postulates that being saved by grace doesn't mean our works don't matter, meaning of course that if our works don't measure up to His requirements then we are not saved. And you have confirmed here that a person's salvation ultimately depends on how well he lives out his salvation. Do people say things like these if they don't believe them to be true? I don't think so.

Why does it matter? Because God has chosen to save people from eternal damnation who put all their trust in Christ (John 3:16; 1 Cor 1:21).

 

[B Griffin]

You could say that you can refuse to open the door, but that don't matter as God will just knock it down, just as He did to Paul.

It doesn't bother you to contravene Christ's invitation to the lost? Seems like it should.

1 Ti 1:13-14 When God chooses you it is for no other reason than it is your turn to start working out your own salvation.
You are given opportunity to grow up unto the measuring stick Jesus Christ. Be purged of all fleshly desire and carnal thinking,
and do the will of the Father in your life.

There seems to be some uncertainty here, which is strange.

Carnal thinking is thinking you have a say so in your own initial salvation. It was done for you by Jesus and when God lets you in on His
secret you will no doubt have the best day of your human existence.

Carnal thinking is thinking that you have no say so in your own initial salvation. I say that because it takes a great deal of carnality to hear and see and know that Jesus is drawing all people to Himself and to reject that His invitation is meaningful in any significant way to the lost. Only a carnal human philosophy could justify that.

Continue to believe on His name, continue to pray, continue to practice kingdom principles. But don't think that anything you do
makes you qualified for initial salvation, it is a GIFT.

Uncertainty again. Very strange indeed.

The Rev 3:20 "I stand at the door and knock" is written to a specific group and they are of the elect, whether then or now.
It was said to them for they thought they had everything they needed already, but didn't. They still needed wisdom and understanding,
they were still blinded to higher truth, and naked spiritually.

This post may be the first time I ever heard that the elect lack wisdom and understanding, are blind to higher truths, and are naked spiritually when they think they are complete and lack nothing. Why tell them in a letter? Why not just kick the door down? They can't comprehend and repent and open the door without the door being kicked in anyway, right? Because enlivenment necessarily come first, right?

 

[B Griffin]

Yeah anyone who hears His voice AND OPENS the door AND OVERCOMES EVEN AS HE DID will be granted to sit with Him in His throne in heavenly places through the veil that is to say His flesh in the presence of God.

I can not find a single English translation of Revelation 3:21 that makes sitting with Jesus on His throne contingent on overcoming just as He overcame. If you know of one, please share it.

 

[Samson2021]

It doesn't bother you to contravene Christ's invitation to the lost? Seems like it should.

It isn't an invitation. Ask Paul in 1 Ti 1:13-14 He wasn't invited it was a chosen/election issue. After he realized what happened he was more
than glad that he got chosen.

 

[Samson2021]

Carnal thinking is thinking that you have no say so in your own initial salvation.

It is a gift, thus you have nothing to do with it being gifted to you, it is His election of you. If you are born of the Spirit it is simply because
God had predestined you to begin becoming His son that day. Did you hear the word of truth prior to this day? Sure, for faith would not come
until after your betrothal, through hearing the truth of your salvation. And we are talking about INITIAL, not what comes after.
1 Co 15:23 There is an order to this resurrection.......... Jas 1:18 He begat us of His own will, through the word of truth, that we should be
a kind of first fruits of His creatures. He does the electing, its His order, He is the one that begets us according to His own will, not mans.
You were purchased with a price (blood), you now belong to Christ although not in Him yet as not all things are put under His authority.
Hearing the word of truth binds you to Him as Husband, when the marriage of the individual occurs is exclusively up to the Father. Read about Jewish customs for betrothal and marriage in Jesus' time, it isn't like todays engagements.
For NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM. That is the day you are filled with the faith and love that
come from Jesus Christs fullness. What you do after that is kinda up to you, although God will turn up the heat if you simply sit down or
turn back, may be a while, but it will happen.

Uncertainty again. Very strange indeed.

Again, no uncertainty as there is INITIAL and then there is WORKING OUT YOUR OWN unto becoming a son. Rightly divide the plan.

This post may be the first time I ever heard that the elect lack wisdom and understanding, are blind to higher truths, and are naked spiritually when they think they are complete and lack nothing.

They do if they are side tracked, following after the harlot(organized religion), following doctrines that cause them to stumble, stray,
get pulled back into the world, etc..... He said it so it must be that some fall back or simply sit down and go no further in the maturing
process, they are not running the race as Paul would say, they can't see what they are to be. It doesn't add to their initial salvation, but it
does increase their faith and love as they continue to be sanctified.

I can not find a single English translation of Revelation 3:21 that makes sitting with Jesus on His throne contingent on overcoming just as He overcame. If you know of one, please share it.

Rev 3:21 To Him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with Me in my throne, even as also I OVERCAME, and am sit down in my Fathers throne.
How can you miss it it's right there. You wanna position of authority, you have to overcome just as He did, purge yourself, be pure, be Holy.
1 Jo 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Let the devil have nothing in you!