satan has finally destroyed the church

[shawnavery]

It might be in God's eyes. When you praise Him, it depends on the way you play it. If you are rocking out with it, it might be as blasphemous to God as murder. Or more.

IMA just gonna have to disagree there

John 3:16

 

[jeffdp72]

Miggles; This coming Sunday, I am going to find a church which sings the old hymns, and I am going to be singing those hymns with all my heart, soul and mind; as best I can (the Lord knows I can’t carry a tune, but I try).

I pray our Heavenly Father hears my hymn singing perfectly and that my singing is pleasing to Him and brings Glory to Him.

I also pray that one of those hymns is ‘How Great Thou Art’ or ‘Amazing Love’.

 

[dogs4thewin]

No one disputes that.
So quote me chapter and verse that describes God's musical taste about what music He prefers and what music He rejects and how even hearing the latter may bring salvation into question despite faith or grace. Do you believe in salvation by Gregorian Chant? If I should produce a sour note, even during a hymn that you personally sanction, will God be mad at me? Am I liable to go to hell for hearing a pipe organ played in church ( wicked new fangled instrument that it is, making creepy sounding satanic bass notes inspired by the devil's laughter at the cries of the damned in hell) ?

but as long as the music has the gospel MESSAGE it does not matter what is used to play it.

 

[miggles]

I also pray that one of those hymns is ‘How Great Thou Art’ or ‘Amazing Love’.

Thank you, jeffdp72. You are very kind. I can't sing well either. I used to sing in the choir but everyone drowned me out so it was ok. lol.

 

[shawnavery]

but as long as the music has the gospel MESSAGE it does not matter what is used to play it.

Amen

John 3:16

 

[mmksparbud]

I took care of an old couple for about a year--very interesting. We were watching something about the Jewish faith, (they were not Jewish)--and there was a cantor singing. The old guy shoock his head and said "It's amazing that people think that all that caterwailing is pleasing to God!!--I was shocked and promptly said--"It's amazing to me that you think that the manner of this mans singing would be offensive to God, when the Jews were the ones He choose and they sang to Him in much the same manner as this cantor is now. Their music, the oldest, has not changed. And if it was perfectly acceptible to God then (which, if you read the bible, included drums), what makes you think it's not ok with Him now???"
I really do not like the sound of the Germanic languages, or the Aramaic, which includes Hebrew--I just don't like the guteral sounds--Sounds like you need to hand them a Kleenex! I prefer Portoguese, Italian--French is a little nasally for me--But God loved, and He worked through the Jews--so I'm not about to say I don't think the Hebrew language is good enough to praise God with!!!
As for music, so much is cultural. I do believe there is a difference in what is appropriate for worship service, and what is appropriate for getting together and praising God and having a good time. David danced before God--the music was lively--but he didn't dance in the synagogue--it was out in the street! I suppose if the music is leading you to bow and worship God, you're ok--if it's making you want to swing your hips and act suggestively with the opposite sex--you may be in trouble. And certainly the words are important as well as the sound--the most sensual songs on earth have not been the heavy metal sounds, the rock and roll--but the slow, ones--More population explosion with Barry White than Elvis. Donna Summer added more to the population with "Love to Love ya" then with "She works hard for the money"-- Intent is a big part of it.

 

[Willing Spirit]

satan has thrown out the hymnals and brought in new age "music" . Drum sets and electric guitars have replaced the cross. Moronic
moneygrubbers have replaced preachers. Mockery has replaced reverence. Noise has replaced peace.

The moneychangers had nothing on the church today. Remember what Jesus did to them?

This viewpoint is legalistic and goes against biblical teaching on music.

The Bible encourages people to praise God with stringed instruments. This is clearly seen in Psalm 150. An electric guitar is obviously a stringed instrument, so can be used to praise God. To say otherwise is unbiblical, going against what the bible clearly teaches.

The Bible also encourages us to praise God with drums and dancing. This can also be seen in Psalm 150 and other bible passages. Unfortunately the Hebrew word "Tof" (which is a frame drum without jingles) is often mistranslated in our English Bible's as "tambourine" or "timbrel"

One of the recent Psalms I read in the NASB translation, says this in Psalm 68:24, 25:

"They have seen Your procession O God, the procession Of my God, my King, into the sanctuary. The singers went on, the musicians after them, in the midst of the maidens beating tambourines.

The beating of drums was one of the biblical ways to praise God. Hymns (a song of praise) were often sung with drums and dancing in bible times. We shouldn't condemn what the bible encourages.

See this article on drums:

» Drums & the Bible Psalm Drummers

God does not compromise.

True. Which is why we shouldn't compromise what the bible says about drums or stringed instruments. To condemn their use in church (electric or otherwise) is compromising biblical teaching on the subject.

Well, I love all of the old ones. Let's see. Off the top of my head:

1. What Child is This? (lyrics 1865; tune in 16th Century)
2. My Jesus I Love Thee (1864)
3. Amazing Love (And Can It Be) (?)
4. How Great Thou Art (1885)
5. Precious Lord (1844)

Not necessarily in that order. Not sure about the dates. Sung in style as intended when written.

It's interesting that you mentioned "Precious Lord", a song that was composed by Thomas Dorsey after his infant son and first wife died in 1932.

The melody of this song was stolen from an 1844 hymn "Must Jesus Bear the Cross Alone" (the tune for this hymn called "Maitland"). Created by George N. Allen, this tune in it's original 1844 form was composed in "classic hymn style" (for lack of a better term), a type of hymnal music that was heavily rooted in European classical music, but often plain and simple.

Years later Thomas Dorsey (an African American) stole the melody, wrote a different set of lyrics to it, and composed it in a different style. The result was Precious Lord. The original composing style of "Precious Lord" was similar to the "blackened" gospel hymn style of Charles Tindley, but with a touch of blues and jazz. Because of the blues/jazz influence, some Christians in the 30's thought "Precious Lord" was the devils music. Some thought he was copying the devil and didn't appreciate his blues influenced church music. Yet this same song is in your list of hymns that you love, music you consider reverent. Not everyone thought it was reverent in the 30's!

I can understand why people would have a problem with some extreme forms of Christian music (eg. really dark sounding stuff with spooky growls or tortured screams). I myself feel uncomfortable with a lot of the more extreme stuff, though I might not have any Scriptural "proof" to prove my discomfort. The subject of musical style isn't even in the bible. But the bible is very clear on some musical matters, including the use of stringed instruments, drums and dancing to praise God. So let us not compromise where the bible is clear.

The use of drums or electric guitars in church is not the issue. Using modern music or music with a good drum beat, is also not the issue. A lot of the old church music was modern or fairly contemporary for it's time.

If your going to flatly reject all modern rocking music in church as satanic, just because of "secular music influences", you will also have to reject Dorsey's "Precious Lord" and Christian music in general.

 

[Willing Spirit]

I understand that everyone has their own preferences when it comes to music during worship services, but let us remember that what we might view is traditional and proper hymns are not what the first Christians sang.

Very true.

The term "hymns" has largely lost it's original meaning. When the bible refers to hymns, it is simply referring to songs of praise. When the Apostle Paul tells Christians to sing hymns, he is telling them to sing songs of praise to God. One of the biblical ways to praise God (and thus sing hymns) was by beating drums and dancing, something that totally goes against the modern stereotype of hymnal music.

Today the term "hymn" typically refers to certain old church songs, regardless of whether or not they praise God. Meanwhile the modern "praise and worship songs" are not considered hymns, even though many of these are songs of praise and hymns by the biblical use of the term.

There is a tendency to see hymns as the older organ or piano kind of stuff, when in fact it has been much more diverse (both by the biblical and more modern definition). Traditional hymn music can very greatly from culture to culture.

 

[miggles]

The use of drums or electric guitars in church is not the issue.

Hm. Sounds like something satan would say.

As far as the hymn "Precious Lord," the way we sang it in the choir was not jazzed up or bluesy.

And Thomas Dorsey did not steal the tune. He simply used it to comfort himself at a time of unimaginable grief. If he "stole" it, then a dying William Chatterton Dix who wrote What Child is This? "stole" the tune GreenSleeves from Henry the 8th.

 

[jeffdp72]

Today, (as I said I would), I went to a church service held in a beautiful old church; the Graceville Uniting Church Brisbane Australia, I meet some wonderful elderly people in the congregation.

The first hymn was ‘All things bright and beautiful’, and the other hymns that followed were just as beautiful.

I realized a few things;
1. I don’t need guitars, or drums, or flashing lights when I’m singing praises to God.
2. There is a real need for the tradition style church services to be supported by the Christian community. (If in Brisbane please visit and support the Graceville Uniting Church)
3. I really can’t sing hymns, but I tried.
4. God is GOOD (but then I already knew this)

[Just felt like sharing my experiences with you all.]

 

[Willing Spirit]

I said earlier:

"The use of drums or electric guitars in church is not the issue"

You replied with the following comment:

Hm. Sounds like something satan would say.

Please back yourself with scripture. If drums and electric guitar in church is satanic, where is the scriptural basis for your belief? I have already given you what the Bible says about stringed instruments and drums.

As far as the hymn "Precious Lord," the way we sang it in the choir was not jazzed up or bluesy.

Which may be true. Precious Lord has been adapted to several different styles. I've seen the lyrics adapted to a classicaly based style (which takes it closer to the way the tune would have sounded in it's original 1844 form). But the way Dorsey dressed up the tune, it did have that touch of blues and jazz in it. He originated Precious Lord and that is how he played it.

Dorsey himself admitted where he got his musical influences, noting blues and jazz as one of them. In this following video of "Precious Lord" Dorsey narrates the story of this song. The first thing that comes out of his mouth is "Blues Jazz the gospel":

YouTube

And Thomas Dorsey did not steal the tune. He simply used it to comfort himself at a time of unimaginable grief. If he "stole" it, then a dying William Chatterton Dix who wrote What Child is This? "stole" the tune GreenSleeves from Henry the 8th.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. When I used the word "stole" I didn't mean it to be taken literally, as an actual thief stealing something. I wasn't in anyway trying to suggest Dorsey did something wrong. It was simply my way of saying that he took the tune from an earlier source.

 

[miggles]

Please back yourself with scripture. If drums and electric guitar in church is satanic, where is the scriptural basis for your belief?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's not so much these instruments are in the church as it is the way they are played. They should be played in a reverent way. Also, the drum sets and electric guitars should not replace the cross as a focal point in the church.

But the way Dorsey dressed up the tune, it did have that touch of blues and jazz in it.

The upbeat jazzy sound comes naturally to black people so it is ok if they worship in that way. It's from their hearts. It is not natural for white people to do that, therefore it's not from their hearts. They are just mimicking black people. It's a performance, not praise. Which is abominable to the Almighty.

 

[Victory of the Cross]

It's the delivery and lack of a real melody, not the lyrics. I just can't see the angels in Heaven praising God in that way, drum sets and all.

Problem is Angels also dont sing like the 1800's either

Which i am sure was also new age and trashy to those who preferred songs from the 1700's

 

[shawnavery]

Colossians 2:8

John 3:16

 

[pgp_protector]

satan has thrown out the hymnals and brought in new age "music" . Drum sets and electric guitars have replaced the cross. Moronic
moneygrubbers have replaced preachers. Mockery has replaced reverence. Noise has replaced peace.

The moneychangers had nothing on the church today. Remember what Jesus did to them?

Nothing like a large dose of hyperbole to start a thread.

 

[jeffdp72]

My two cents worth [for what it’s worth]

In Australia and I suspect this is a global trend and not a new trend; the contemporary new-style church service is replacing the traditional old-style church service. [This may not be a change for the better, my opinion]. But, within the Christian community there needs to be a spectrum between both types of church services. I hope you agree with me on this point; all the church services need to be focused on God and not on the church brand.

I do feel sympathy for those followers who have had their church change from old-style to new-style, in order for their church to remain active in the wider community. Change is not always easy to accept.

Music; There needs to be traditional old-style church services where beautiful old Hymns are sung with reverent praise to God and these churches need to be supported by the Christian community. There also needs to be contemporary new-style church services for the happy-clappy Christians (that’s me) who love to raise the roof with glorious noise to God, [to God, not satan.]

As for the Sermon; In the traditional style church services there did seem to be a larger emphasis on teaching the bible, the bible passages where read and then the passages were explained. Whereas in some of the new style church services; (and I've been to several services where this has been the case); the sermons were more like ‘motivational speeches’, with a little bit of bible content added to back up the speech and that’s not a change for the better. [My opinion.]

As for the moneygrubbers; For those who are in ministry and who do not have a genuine faith in God. If their faking their ministries for money; then they should just get out and stop being a minister for money. [My opinion.]

 

[freezerman2000]

Well, I love all of the old ones. Let's see. Off the top of my head:

1. What Child is This? (lyrics 1865; tune in 16th Century)
2. My Jesus I Love Thee (1864)
3. Amazing Love (And Can It Be) (?)
4. How Great Thou Art (1885)
5. Precious Lord (1844)

Not necessarily in that order. Not sure about the dates. Sung in style as intended when written.

Well, I love all of the old ones. Let's see. Off the top of my head:

1. What Child is This? (lyrics 1865; tune in 16th Century)
2. My Jesus I Love Thee (1864)
3. Amazing Love (And Can It Be) (?)
4. How Great Thou Art (1885)
5. Precious Lord (1844)

Wow..and to think that when those were going mainstream,folks were probably saying the same trhing as your OP did..
So strange!

 

[miggles]

What do you all think of TBN? The only thing worth watching on it [my opinion] is Efram Zimbalist Jr. sitting in a chair in a wholesome setting reading directly from the Bible. This is how folks should worship the Almighty. It's a very short segment, which is too bad. The rest of TBN is blasphemous [my opinion].

 

[freezerman2000]

TBN? No thank you...not that I agree with how folks shold worship the Lord part..I don't like ANY part of TBN.

 

[freezerman2000]

Jubilate Deo-Psalm c.
O Be joyful in the Lord all ye lands,serve the Lord with gladness and come into His presence with a song.

Be ye sure that the Lord he is God it is he that have made us and not we ourselves-we are his people and the sheep of his pasture.

Oh go your way into his gates with thanksgiving,and into his courts with praise,be thankful unto him and speak good of his Name.

For the Lord is gracious,his mercy is everlasting:and his truth endureth from generation to generation.


NOWHERE have I found what style of song should be sung..that should be a personal preference.
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord!