Salvation by Works

[geocajun]

geo-

"don't have to do a darn thing to be saved"

"or what we fail to do"

Can you reconcile this for those that might be confused?

does the post above clear it up any? if not I can go into further detail.
I do suggest reading this link though, where I've really done a lot of homework to put it all into a clear picture:http://www.christianforums.com/t80333

Note there are several posts in there which clear it up, not just the OP.

 

[Lady Bug]

whoops it is possible that I answered my own question by geo's most recent response above mine, but anyway

 

[geocajun]

geocajun are you saying that works don't "earn our way" into heaven but depending on the work, they can kick us out of heaven?

yep, or failure to work when we should (bury our talents).

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

It is wrong to say that the catholic church teaches we are saved by faith+works. We don't believe that at all. As I said above, we can lose our salvation by what we do (sin), or fail to do (use our talents, charity, etc ..) but we are not saved by any work we do.

I would just add at the end of geo's sentence..."because the work we do is a result of God working in us through our cooperation with His grace."

Hoepfully he doesn't mind me adding that bit.

 

[geocajun]

no problem with that

 

[Tigg]

Faith without works is dead. James 2:20, I think or there abouts. The example of a pair of scissors has stuck with me. Must have both blades for the scissors to work properly. In any case, no where does God or the Bible tell me I can just believe and go on doing whatever I choose to do. I don't think personally, God would like for me to play it that way and to top it off, say He approves.

This question reminds me the admonishion of if you can't love your fellow man, who you can see, how then can you claim to love God who you can't see. That's Biblical but I think my brain has taken a vacation this morn as I can't remember where. I had better get a cup of java. Might help.

 

[benedictaoo]

It is wrong to say that the catholic church teaches we are saved by faith+works. We don't believe that at all. As I said above, we can lose our salvation by what we do (sin), or fail to do (use our talents, charity, etc ..) but we are not saved by any work we do.

The Church teaches that faith with out works is dead and a dead faith can not save you.

We as a ppl were not redeemed by anything we as a ppl have done.

We as an individual were not redeemed by any work that we did.

We, personal and general have been redeemed by Christ offering Himself as an atonement for our sin, personal and original (general).

A person is saved by the grace this wrought. They are incorporated into this mystery through re birth.

Now that a person has been saved by grace, through faith in that atonement made as payment for their sins and not any works of perfection are they 'saved'.

But that faith that they have in that atonement must be a living faith in order for it to save.

What is a living faith? James clearly tells us. One that does good works, both spiritual and corporal works of mercy.

Because where there is mercy shown, mercy will be given.

Because the way to be like God is to be merciful as He is.

Good works is not staying away from sin and it's not not following the commandments. That was the OT law, we are not under the law but grace.

We are now partakers of the divine life, so that means we are like God and if we truly have accepted Christ as Lord and savior, ie accepted His atonement for our sins, then we will not be pharisees striving to follow the law puffed up, full of ourselves but we will be like God, we will be merciful.

That is the work we are to do if the faith we have in the atonement for our sins will be alive and not dead.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

bene-

"ood works is not staying away from sin and it's not not following the commandments. That was the OT law, we are not under the law but grace"

James also says that pure religion "undefiled" is to take care of the widows and orphans (mercy), and to keep oneself clean from sin.

Do you agree that we must not sin to be saved? (ie not die in mortal sin)

 

[Tigg]

Yah, what benedictaoo said.

 

[Ave Maria]

Salvation is by both faith and works.

 

[MissBabylon]

The Church teaches that faith with out works is dead and a dead faith can not save you.

We as a ppl were not redeemed by anything we as a ppl have done.

We as an individual were not redeemed by any work that we did.

We, personal and general have been redeemed by Christ offering Himself as an atonement for our sin, personal and original (general).

A person is saved by the grace this wrought. They are incorporated into this mystery through re birth.

Now that a person has been saved by grace, through faith in that atonement made as payment for their sins and not any works of perfection are they 'saved'.

But that faith that they have in that atonement must be a living faith in order for it to save.

What is a living faith? James clearly tells us. One that does good works, both spiritual and corporal works of mercy.

Because where there is mercy shown, mercy will be given.

Because the way to be like God is to be merciful as He is.

Good works is not staying away from sin and it's not not following the commandments. That was the OT law, we are not under the law but grace.

We are now partakers of the divine life, so that means we are like God and if we truly have accepted Christ as Lord and savior, ie accepted His atonement for our sins, then we will not be pharisees striving to follow the law puffed up, full of ourselves but we will be like God, we will be merciful.

That is the work we are to do if the faith we have in the atonement for our sins will be alive and not dead.

What benedicta said.

 

[geocajun]

The Church teaches that faith with out works is dead and a dead faith can not save you.

We as a ppl were not redeemed by anything we as a ppl have done.

We as an individual were not redeemed by any work that we did.

We, personal and general have been redeemed by Christ offering Himself as an atonement for our sin, personal and original (general).

A person is saved by the grace this wrought. They are incorporated into this mystery through re birth.

Now that a person has been saved by grace, through faith in that atonement made as payment for their sins and not any works of perfection are they 'saved'.

But that faith that they have in that atonement must be a living faith in order for it to save.

What is a living faith? James clearly tells us. One that does good works, both spiritual and corporal works of mercy.

Because where there is mercy shown, mercy will be given.

Because the way to be like God is to be merciful as He is.

Good works is not staying away from sin and it's not not following the commandments. That was the OT law, we are not under the law but grace.

We are now partakers of the divine life, so that means we are like God and if we truly have accepted Christ as Lord and savior, ie accepted His atonement for our sins, then we will not be pharisees striving to follow the law puffed up, full of ourselves but we will be like God, we will be merciful.

That is the work we are to do if the faith we have in the atonement for our sins will be alive and not dead.

good resource for understanding Justification in catholic teaching:
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/justcath.htm - by Jimmy Akin


"You don't have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven. There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven. One is saved the moment one is initially justified. The only things one then does is good works because one loves God (the only kind which receive rewards) and not choose to cast out God's grace by mortal sin. And even if one does cast it out by mortal sin, the only thing needed to get it back was the same thing needed to get it in the first place -- repentance, faith, and sacrament, except the sacrament in this case is confession rather than baptism."
-- Jimmy Akin
Source: http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/righteou.htm

 

[Gwendolyn]

Saved by grace through faith.

But faith without works is dead. Meaning, if you have faith, it will naturally manifest itself in the way you treat other people and it will affect the way you live your life. If you really believe that Christ preached love, and you seek to emulate Him in that regard, then chasing down your neighbour and screaming at her because her dog dug up your flowerbed is not showing the fruits of that faith.

You will know them by their fruits. The fruits of faith are kindness and concern for others and you will show that in the way you treat people and the things you do for them.

Hiding the lamp under the bushel basket hardly allows your fasith to flourish.

 

[geocajun]

by the way, I love this topic. I consider it to be just about my favorite area of catholic theology.

 

[stephenc]

Works and Faith are obviously inseperably intertwined; at least as I understand them based on Jesus' commandments; "Love God, love your fellow men". First is "faith"; second "works".

Well, that's what I think anyway.

 

[benedictaoo]

bene-

"ood works is not staying away from sin and it's not not following the commandments. That was the OT law, we are not under the law but grace"

James also says that pure religion "undefiled" is to take care of the widows and orphans (mercy), and to keep oneself clean from sin.

Do you agree that we must not sin to be saved? (ie not die in mortal sin)

Of course as Paul says... it's not a license to sin.

But striving for perfection by being perfect, obeying the law, never slipping up, never falling down is not only ridiculously unrealistic but it is working for salvation and it is exhausting. It's purely OT.

We are no longer under that. We are under grace.

And that means, all of our sins have been forgiven, past present and future by Christ our High Priest offering Himself for our sins. We are not to stress over our sins but instead trust in God's mercy. He forgave us when Christ entered heaven as our High Priest. We have to trust in that.

So it's not a dwelling on them deal. It's a trusting in Christ that He has rejoined us back to God who has accepted His blood for our sins and we are sharing in His life. So no sin can keep us from Him.

The Pharisees believed that sin, not keeping the law could keep you from God. Not true, sin can not keep us from God. Christ paid for them.

Rebellion and rejection is what keeps us from God. That is called mortal sin. When we sin out of rebellion and rejection we can lose our salvation and we need to go to confession and be rejoined back to God becuase we have sinned against God, against our own gift of grace.

Does that makes sense?

 

[benedictaoo]

good resource for understanding Justification in catholic teaching:
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/justcath.htm - by Jimmy Akin


"You don't have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven. There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven. One is saved the moment one is initially justified. The only things one then does is good works because one loves God (the only kind which receive rewards) and not choose to cast out God's grace by mortal sin. And even if one does cast it out by mortal sin, the only thing needed to get it back was the same thing needed to get it in the first place -- repentance, faith, and sacrament, except the sacrament in this case is confession rather than baptism."
-- Jimmy Akin
Source: http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/righteou.htm

In Baptism, I agree.

 

[benedictaoo]

by the way, I love this topic. I consider it to be just about my favorite area of catholic theology.

Reluctantly geo I have to admit, on this subject we can learn a lot from our Protestant friends.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

We are saved by grace through a living, active faith, because of Christ's sacrifice

 

[Gwendolyn]

we are saved by grace through faith.

but if you have faith, you do not hide it like a lamp under a bushel basket. the fruits of faith will manifest themselves in many ways, most of which being related to how we treat others and care for others.