Sabbath observance under extreme situations?

[DennisTate]

Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus was himself a pacifist......... but it seems that he was attempting to make it clear to the religious authorities of his time period that they could not condemn or look down on somebody who felt called into a career in the military or police.

IF........ the Machabees were correct in their judgment that it was necessary under their extreme conditions to fight back when attacked on the Sabbath then.......... this would make it clear that for the Scribes and Pharisees to condemn him for healing on the Sabbath was twisted reasoning.

The part of his question about "saving life on the Sabbath" is relevant to nurses and doctors.

Religious people should have a sense of hierarchy of law........ and put human life above the Sabbath.

But...... sometimes a police officer must take a life.... .even on the day that they regard as the Sabbath....... in order to protect many innocent people.

IF.... the Jewish rebels at Masada had had a few Machabees among them...... who felt it was OK to shoot a few arrows..... even on the Sabbath..... they might have been able to stop the Romans from building a bridge to their stronghold!

Religion....... if taken to an extreme...... tends to KILL WISDOM!

An apology to all members of the military and police!
I just want to say that I am truly sorry for all those years that I was close to believing in near total pacifism! Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua once asked a question of the Scribes and Pharisees that should have made it obvious to me that an extreme situation can call for drastic action by a Christian or Jew who feels called into a life in the military or police!


Mark 3:4 "And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace."I am almost certain that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was referring to the situation faced by the Machabees when Greco - Syrian armies were attacking Jewish communities on the Sabbath.

One community had refused to fight back....but the Machabees....in my opinion correctly judged that this is a violation of an admonition by King Solomon:


Ecclesiastes 7:16 "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?"

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, First Book Of Machabees Chapter 2
...

"So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. [39] And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. [40] And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.

[41] And they determined in that day, saying: Whosoever shall come up against us to fight on the sabbath day, we will fight against him: and we will not all die, as our brethren that were slain in the secret places."

 

[visionary]

And then there are the miracles for those who were unharmed facing the extreme situations. How can you not trust God to care for you if you are defending yourself?

Luke 4:
…28 And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; 29 and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. 30 But passing through their midst, He went His way.

This cliff was the Sabbath walk limit, aprox 2 miles away. God allowed this to go so far but no further.

You know the saying, when it is your time, it is your time.

 

[DennisTate]

And then there are the miracles for those who were unharmed facing the extreme situations. How can you not trust God to care for you if you are defending yourself?

Luke 4:
…28 And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; 29 and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. 30 But passing through their midst, He went His way.

This cliff was the Sabbath walk limit, aprox 2 miles away. God allowed this to go so far but no further.

You know the saying, when it is your time, it is your time.

Good point! There are different levels of faith and each of us should have a realistic idea of where we are at. If I was at the place where my faith was comparable to that of the Prophet Elijah.... then perhaps I could pray Holy Spirit fire on the bad guys.... and maybe they would fall on the floor and start prophesying or something like that???????

I'm not quite at that level of faith yet! So I have to consider my options?!

 

[visionary]

Good point! There are different levels of faith and each of us should have a realistic idea of where we are at. If I was at the place where my faith was comparable to that of the Prophet Elijah.... then perhaps I could pray Holy Spirit fire on the bad guys.... and maybe they would fall on the floor and start prophesying or something like that???????

I'm not quite at that level of faith yet! So I have to consider my options?!

Yep, and every test of faith, either strengths or weakens. If you lift up a weapon, are you strengthening your faith in Him or weakening it? Remember all wickedness, evil, and violent behavior is not of God. There is no reason for believers to get involved. Prison gates open at night,... That which we fear could be our downfall.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

If every situation is an opportunity for God, then who are we to be contrary to His Will?

 

[DennisTate]

Yep, and every test of faith, either strengths or weakens. If you lift up a weapon, are you strengthening your faith in Him or weakening it? Remember all wickedness, evil, and violent behavior is not of God. There is no reason for believers to get involved. Prison gates open at night,... That which we fear could be our downfall.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

If every situation is an opportunity for God, then who are we to be contrary to His Will?

Yes..... this is especially relevant to me because I have recently found out that my wife can ask for her Israeli citizenship based partly on her mothers last name.

If I also were to become an Israeli citizen, should I ask for exemption from service in the I. D. F. or..... should I be willing to be trained..... and should I be willing to act............ if necessary...... all while praying at the same time??????

 

[visionary]

Yes..... this is especially relevant to me because I have recently found out that my wife can ask for her Israeli citizenship based partly on her mothers last name.

If I also were to become an Israeli citizen, should I ask for exemption from service in the I. D. F. or..... should I be willing to be trained..... and should I be willing to act............ if necessary...... all while praying at the same time??????

In that army, you are more on God's side than on any other nations' military on earth.

 

[pat34lee]

About the OP:

Yeshua was no pacifist. Read the account of him overturning
the tables in the temple and driving out the vendors again.
One man against probably dozens. True righteous anger is
a scary thing.

I don't think the Maccabees were right in rebelling. Even
the supposed order to desecrate the altar may be a story
made up to justify their actions. The proof is in the fruit.
Less than 75 years later, they are killing their own people.

 

[visionary]

The Israel army is prophetically in the right place at the right time to do God's Will.

 

[Hoshiyya]

First Book Of Machabees Chapter 2
...

The Maccabees were great. I remember that particular part you quoted had a big influence on me many years ago in helping me define the limits of the Shabbat.

Daniel actually prophecied about the Maccabee movement:

Daniel 11:32 With flattery he (Antiochus IV) will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him. 33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.

 

[DennisTate]

In that army, you are more on God's side than on any other nations' military on earth.

Yes.... that is exactly the impression that I have as well!

 

[DennisTate]

The Maccabees were great. I remember that particular part you quoted had a big influence on me many years ago in helping me define the limits of the Shabbat.

Daniel actually prophecied about the Maccabee movement:

Daniel 11:32 With flattery he (Antiochus IV) will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him. 33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.

And isn't it rather sad to think that at Masada..... not even one of the 900+ Jewish rebels understood the implications of the history of the Machabee Movement?

Not one of them felt free on the Sabbath.... to shoot some arrows.... and stop the Romans from building that bridge up to their stronghold????? But they felt free to commit suicide?????? We need to have an understanding of the nature of G-d to understand how.... to apply the ten commandments to a specific set of circumstances?!

Ecclesiastes 7:16 "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?"

 

[visionary]

I see faith faltered at Masada... No David to come stand before Goliath that day.

 

[pat34lee]

I see faith faltered at Masada... No David to come stand before Goliath that day.

I don't see it as faltering and I highly doubt that the
defenders took Sabbaths off. I see a group that spent
months resisting the Romans, and on the eve of the
Roman victory, stole the prize from them by leaving
no prisoners to torture and kill as an object lesson.

 

[visionary]

I don't see it as faltering and I highly doubt that the
defenders took Sabbaths off. I see a group that spent
months resisting the Romans, and on the eve of the
Roman victory, stole the prize from them by leaving
no prisoners to torture and kill as an object lesson.

After all this time, they do not believe God will come at the last moment, which He is known to do. They committed a sin against self to avoid what they believe was their fate. Who gave them this fear? Who said that was their fate? What drove them to do this? I do not believe God did?

 

[pat34lee]

After all this time, they do not believe God will come at the last moment, which He is known to do. They committed a sin against self to avoid what they believe was their fate. Who gave them this fear? Who said that was their fate? What drove them to do this? I do not believe God did?

The same thing that drove them to rebel, made them
take their own lives. Nobody sacks Jerusalem unless it
is under judgment. A false messiah led the effort to
defeat the Romans. That could not be allowed, whatever
the circumstances. You see how well it worked with the
Maccabees.

 

[BukiRob]

Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus was himself a pacifist......... but it seems that he was attempting to make it clear to the religious authorities of his time period that they could not condemn or look down on somebody who felt called into a career in the military or police.

IF........ the Machabees were correct in their judgment that it was necessary under their extreme conditions to fight back when attacked on the Sabbath then.......... this would make it clear that for the Scribes and Pharisees to condemn him for healing on the Sabbath was twisted reasoning.

The part of his question about "saving life on the Sabbath" is relevant to nurses and doctors.

Religious people should have a sense of hierarchy of law........ and put human life above the Sabbath.

But...... sometimes a police officer must take a life.... .even on the day that they regard as the Sabbath....... in order to protect many innocent people.

IF.... the Jewish rebels at Masada had had a few Machabees among them...... who felt it was OK to shoot a few arrows..... even on the Sabbath..... they might have been able to stop the Romans from building a bridge to their stronghold!

Religion....... if taken to an extreme...... tends to KILL WISDOM!

An apology to all members of the military and police!
I just want to say that I am truly sorry for all those years that I was close to believing in near total pacifism! Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua once asked a question of the Scribes and Pharisees that should have made it obvious to me that an extreme situation can call for drastic action by a Christian or Jew who feels called into a life in the military or police!


Mark 3:4 "And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace."I am almost certain that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was referring to the situation faced by the Machabees when Greco - Syrian armies were attacking Jewish communities on the Sabbath.

One community had refused to fight back....but the Machabees....in my opinion correctly judged that this is a violation of an admonition by King Solomon:


Ecclesiastes 7:16 "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?"

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, First Book Of Machabees Chapter 2
...

I think Yeshua made it pretty clear that it is NOT unlawful to do good on the Sabbath. In fact, he would suggest to refuse to do good on the Sabbath is actually to sin.

 

[danny ski]

After all this time, they do not believe God will come at the last moment, which He is known to do. They committed a sin against self to avoid what they believe was their fate. Who gave them this fear? Who said that was their fate? What drove them to do this? I do not believe God did?

You should not say that. Not from ten thousand kilometers away and two thousand years removed. And from the POV of another religion. Even OUR Sages are silent on the final action of the defenders. BTW, they did not commit suicide, they killed each other.

 

[danny ski]

I think Yeshua made it pretty clear that it is NOT unlawful to do good on the Sabbath. In fact, he would suggest to refuse to do good on the Sabbath is actually to sin.

If it's an emergency, you're obligated to perform a task on shabbos. If it's not, there are other six days. No Law changing required.

 

[BukiRob]

If it's an emergency, you're obligated to perform a task on shabbos. If it's not, there are other six days. No Law changing required.

We agree. It is lawful to do good on Sabbath. Mark 3 1He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered. 2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. 3He said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!” 4 And He said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent. 5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

 

[danny ski]

We agree. It is lawful to do good on Sabbath. Mark 3 1He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered. 2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. 3He said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!” 4 And He said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent. 5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

Actually, I don't agree. There are six other days to do as we wish.