Sabbath observance under extreme situations?

[DennisTate]

Does anyone here think that we can do anything to
alter Yahweh's plans? If anything, we are the ones
going to bend (or break) around his timetable.

Read I Kings 18 and 19..... when G-d simply asks Elijah......"what doest thou here Elijah"....... does not the thought cross your mind that running away from Queen Jezebel and her armies might NOT have been the ultimate plan for Elijah???????

Read II Kings chapter 1...… to see another way that G-d might have wished to deal with Queen Jezebel........

Ezekiel 37 is not necessarily merely a one time event...… but G-d is so powerful moments in what we think of as the past.... can be fully replicated... and new times lines spun off........

 

[DennisTate]

I submit that even if it is NOT an emergency, there is no Law change needed.

There is a rabbinic principle that states if 2 Torah commands are in opposition, a positive command and a negative command, then the positive command always trumps the negative one with 2 exceptions: the prohibitions on idol worship and adultery.

IN the cases presented the 2 opposing commands were the positive command to save life (even stretched to quality of life) and not working on the Sabbath.

And it seems Yeshua appealed to that principle on a few occasions. Matt 12.11 Luke 13.15 Luke 14.5
Please note not all of these were "emergencies," not even the examples. I would say that if Yeshua appealed to that principle, it stands as valid.

Fantastic answer!

I didn't know about that Rabbinic principle! (I'm a Sabbath keeping Gentile)!

 

[DennisTate]

I would not want to be in a position where I feel no way out... But suicide is the bottom of the barrel in choices to make.

That is for certain!

It is interesting that the last lot..... fell on Josephus... who had the wisdom to not take his own life!

 

[DennisTate]

Kohelet/Ecclesiastes 3
For everything there is a season,
a right time for every intention under heaven—
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to throw stones and a time to gather stones,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to discard,
a time to tear and a time to sew,
a time to keep silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

Thus fighting, raising ones hand or killing to defend/protect is not a lack of faith....
We are G-d's hands and feet - to heal and to kill, to build and to tear down, for peace and for war....

An excellent answer indeed!

I hadn't fully linked those verses with the Sabbath before!

An interesting proposal is being put forward that will have observant Jews in Israel asking many questions along this line.......

http://wikimapia.org/11302609/Official-Residence-of-Palestinian-Ambassador-to-Japan
Sigmund Ivarsson (guest)Sigmund Ivarsson (guest)
"I live in Nara and am author of a project called the Petra project. This has the potential to restore Palestine on an equal footing with Israel and make Palestine a major power broker in the middle east and also be the peace of Jerusalem. The idea consists of bringing water from the meditaranean sea to the dead sea one thousand meters below with an aquaduct terminating in a hydroelectric power plant in Jordan. Not only would this bring much needed work for Palestinian and for neighboring Jordan but power for a thousand years.Turning your state from a welfare state to a net exporter of clean energy. I have sent an email to her excelency Alia Hatoug-Bouran emassador of Jordan to the usa.I believe this is a matter of negotiations between the Palestinian authority and the kingdom of Jordan.Please forward this information to the relevant authorities. It is of great importance to both nations. Your servant sigmund. "
4 years ago|reply

 

[DennisTate]

Does anyone here think that we can do anything to
alter Yahweh's plans? If anything, we are the ones
going to bend (or break) around his timetable.

Do you think that G-d would have been disappointed if Adam had gone off to pray......… and seek the counsel of his Creator......… after finding out that Eve had taken the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil??????

 

[pat34lee]

Do you think that G-d would have been disappointed if Adam had gone off to pray......… and seek the counsel of his Creator......… after finding out that Eve had taken the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil??????

It was too late by then. Adam was the caretaker of
the garden, and the head of Eve. She should never
have been left to deal with the serpent by herself.

 

[DennisTate]

It was too late by then. Adam was the caretaker of
the garden, and the head of Eve. She should never
have been left to deal with the serpent by herself.

It was too late by then....... in that particular time line...........
.... but G-d is not limited by our ability or inability to understand what G-d is capable of........

 

[Hoshiyya]

Here is one of those polls that I conducted on another forum related to the Jerusalem Third Temple.

You may find the results rather interesting.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...t-jews-in-rebuilding-of-third-temple.7647317/

Should Christians support Jews in rebuilding of Third Temple?

No. Yeshua will cause the third temple to be built.

It has to be built AFTER the time of the antichrist. Otherwise it would be destroyed during the great earthquake that will occur when Yeshua sets his foot upon the mount of Olives.

 

[DennisTate]

No. Yeshua will cause the third temple to be built.

It has to be built AFTER the time of the antichrist. Otherwise it would be destroyed during the great earthquake that will occur when Yeshua sets his foot upon the mount of Olives.

Thank you for presenting this common belief but........
this doesn't seem to fit with Isaiah 66.

It looks to me like..... Temple built.... in use by Orthodox Jews for perhaps 2.5 or 3.5 years.....
then the bad guys take over for a while....... then Messiah comes....(Zechariah 14)... and kicks the
bad guys out of the Temple????!

Just a theory but........ it seems to me that these verses indicates that Zechariah 14
cannot be fulfilled..........until AFTER the Temple is built....


Isa 66:5

¶
Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

Isa 66:6

A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Thank you for presenting this common belief but........
this doesn't seem to fit with Isaiah 66.

It looks to me like..... Temple built.... in use by Orthodox Jews for perhaps 2.5 or 3.5 years.....
then the bad guys take over for a while....... then Messiah comes....(Zechariah 14)... and kicks the
bad guys out of the Temple????!

Just a theory but........ it seems to me that these verses indicates that Zechariah 14
cannot be fulfilled..........until AFTER the Temple is built....


Isa 66:5

¶
Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

Isa 66:6

A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

There is no verse describing a future temple being used by Jews and then being taken over by someone, and then returned to the Jews / Yeshua.

"it seems to me that these verses indicates that Zechariah 14
cannot be fulfilled..........until AFTER the Temple is built"

I don't think that makes sense. Who builds a temple right next to a place where the BIGGEST earthquake to ever occur will happen ?

There won't even a real need for a third temple until he actually begins reigning. Currently we get by just fine without a temple.

I don't think the third temple necessarily will be the dwelling place of Yeshua on earth, but it probably will be.

My teacher speculated that when Yeshua comes, he will dwell in Shiloh for a few years, until the construction of the third temple is finished. (But if one is built right before the greatest earthquake in all history, then Yeshua will have to dwell in a fourth temple.)

 

[DennisTate]

There is no verse describing a future temple being used by Jews and then being taken over by someone, and then returned to the Jews / Yeshua.

"it seems to me that these verses indicates that Zechariah 14
cannot be fulfilled..........until AFTER the Temple is built"

I don't think that makes sense. Who builds a temple right next to a place where the BIGGEST earthquake to ever occur will happen ?

There won't even a real need for a third temple until he actually begins reigning. Currently we get by just fine without a temple.

I don't think the third temple necessarily will be the dwelling place of Yeshua on earth, but it probably will be.

My teacher speculated that when Yeshua comes, he will dwell in Shiloh for a few years, until the construction of the third temple is finished. (But if one is built right before the greatest earthquake in all history, then Yeshua will have to dwell in a fourth temple.)

Doesn't Isaiah 66:6 indicate enemies........ in the temple?

Isa 66:5

¶
"Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed."

Isa 66:6

"A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies."

 

[Hoshiyya]

Doesn't Isaiah 66:6 indicate enemies........ in the temple?...

No.................. not at all.

By the way. You just did something highly illogical.

I gave you strong logical reasons for why it cannot be built until after the planetary earthquake. You did not adress any of those reasons.

Why would I change my mind on this, without first adressing these strong logical reasons ?

Isn't logical reasoning reasonable to you ?

 

[DennisTate]

No.................. not at all.

By the way. You just did something highly illogical.

I gave you strong logical reasons for why it cannot be built until after the planetary earthquake. You did not adress any of those reasons.

Why would I change my mind on this, without first adressing these strong logical reasons ?

Isn't logical reasoning reasonable to you ?

One possible reason could be the possibility of a planetary earthquake.... taking place
in invisible realms of space -time..... where a massive shift occurs in the spiritual atmosphere
that surrounds this earth.

If this is to occur.... it would not negate the eventual literal planetary earthquake but.....
it would alter the flavor of it.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/yom-kippur-the-rapture-connection.7647325/

Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!

 

[Norbert L]

I believe in this day and time, the popular impression being propagated and continually promoted in modern society through the media, does not distinguish between "kill" and "execute". Police are legally empowered to take a person's life under specified conditions. They are not the ones who actually do the killing when they are rightfully doing their given work. Romans 13:4

For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. ESV

 

[visionary]

There is no verse describing a future temple being used by Jews and then being taken over by someone, and then returned to the Jews / Yeshua.

"it seems to me that these verses indicates that Zechariah 14
cannot be fulfilled..........until AFTER the Temple is built"

I don't think that makes sense. Who builds a temple right next to a place where the BIGGEST earthquake to ever occur will happen ?

There won't even a real need for a third temple until he actually begins reigning. Currently we get by just fine without a temple.

I don't think the third temple necessarily will be the dwelling place of Yeshua on earth, but it probably will be.

My teacher speculated that when Yeshua comes, he will dwell in Shiloh for a few years, until the construction of the third temple is finished. (But if one is built right before the greatest earthquake in all history, then Yeshua will have to dwell in a fourth temple.)

There is also .... The Man of Lawlessness
… 2 Thess 2:2 not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Let no one deceive you in anyway, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed. 4 He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.…
The description of the article in the most holy place is the mercy seat, which represents the throne of God. On either side of God's throne are two golden cherubim.

Remember, this is a COPY of the actual throne of God in heaven. So in heaven, God has two living cherubim either side of His throne. And Ezekiel 28:12-17 confirms that Lucifer (Satan) used to be one of those "covering cherubs".

Psalm 99:1 ...'The Lord reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.'

In 2 Corinthians 12:2–3, the apostle Paul provides a major revelation that there are three “heavens.” In this passage, he maybe talking about himself being taken up to the “third heaven” where God the Father and Yeshua dwell. From this I gather that the second heaven is the universe or outer space, and the first is our atmosphere or air. The Bible indicates that Satan and his cohorts [1/3 of the angels] are allowed to move in this space (Ephesians 2:1–2; 6:12).

In Job's time Satan could wander around in God's court. In Zechariah 3, he again appears before God to accuse Joshua, the high priest. Indeed, the name Satan means “accuser.” But I will not stop there because of Isaiah 14. By Daniel, he was restricted. Satan and his highest ranking angels can still oppose the work of God and hinder the angels of God (Daniel 10:10–14) within the boundaries of the middle or second heaven.

We know that Satan is seen by Yeshua falling out of heaven like lightening. Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. The last great angelic battle and Satan’s ultimate expulsion from heaven are described in Revelation 12:7–12. I do not think that the battle has occurred, nor the expulsion yet. When Satan is expelled from the middle heaven, there will be great rejoicing in heaven, since the age-old accuser will be forever banned from his mission of accusation and slander against the elect.

For it had happened, then we would be bombarded beyond belief by wicked thoughts and actions. I know this world of people are on the edge of the precipice of losing all common sense and moral compass. But it is not insane yet. We, on earth will suffer terribly after Satan is kicked out, because Satan is enraged. He will also be aware that he only a very short time until he is bound and cast into the bottomless pit. This will usher in a period of intensified suffering called the great tribulation on earth.

It is during this time that all peace treaties with Israel will be broken. There is indication that there is a temple in service at this point, because Satan declares himself as god, and begins to systematically murder all those who refuse to worship him.

So I believe that a temple made with man's hands will be built, in which these parts of prophecies can be fulfilled.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The Torah forbids standing idly by while innocent blood is shed.

If a life is in danger, it is permissible to break the sabbath to save it, except that one may not commit murder, idolatry, or fornication to do so.

 

[Hoshiyya]

One possible reason could be the possibility of a planetary earthquake.... taking place
in invisible realms of space -time..... where a massive shift occurs in the spiritual atmosphere
that surrounds this earth.

If you're going to take the text "spiritually" rather than literally, it would be far more logical to say the scriptures refer to the spiritual temple in heaven, rather than a spiritual earthquake.

Anyway, the scripture actually specifies a literal earthquake, no way to misread it.

 

[Hoshiyya]

There is also .... The Man of Lawlessness
… 2 Thess 2:2 not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Let no one deceive you in anyway, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed. 4 He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.…
The description of the article in the most holy place is the mercy seat, which represents the throne of God. On either side of God's throne are two golden cherubim.

Remember, this is a COPY of the actual throne of God in heaven. So in heaven, God has two living cherubim either side of His throne. And Ezekiel 28:12-17 confirms that Lucifer (Satan) used to be one of those "covering cherubs".

Psalm 99:1 ...'The Lord reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.'

In 2 Corinthians 12:2–3, the apostle Paul provides a major revelation that there are three “heavens.” In this passage, he maybe talking about himself being taken up to the “third heaven” where God the Father and Yeshua dwell. From this I gather that the second heaven is the universe or outer space, and the first is our atmosphere or air. The Bible indicates that Satan and his cohorts [1/3 of the angels] are allowed to move in this space (Ephesians 2:1–2; 6:12).

In Job's time Satan could wander around in God's court. In Zechariah 3, he again appears before God to accuse Joshua, the high priest. Indeed, the name Satan means “accuser.” But I will not stop there because of Isaiah 14. By Daniel, he was restricted. Satan and his highest ranking angels can still oppose the work of God and hinder the angels of God (Daniel 10:10–14) within the boundaries of the middle or second heaven.

We know that Satan is seen by Yeshua falling out of heaven like lightening. Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. The last great angelic battle and Satan’s ultimate expulsion from heaven are described in Revelation 12:7–12. I do not think that the battle has occurred, nor the expulsion yet. When Satan is expelled from the middle heaven, there will be great rejoicing in heaven, since the age-old accuser will be forever banned from his mission of accusation and slander against the elect.

For it had happened, then we would be bombarded beyond belief by wicked thoughts and actions. I know this world of people are on the edge of the precipice of losing all common sense and moral compass. But it is not insane yet. We, on earth will suffer terribly after Satan is kicked out, because Satan is enraged. He will also be aware that he only a very short time until he is bound and cast into the bottomless pit. This will usher in a period of intensified suffering called the great tribulation on earth.

It is during this time that all peace treaties with Israel will be broken. There is indication that there is a temple in service at this point, because Satan declares himself as god, and begins to systematically murder all those who refuse to worship him.

So I believe that a temple made with man's hands will be built, in which these parts of prophecies can be fulfilled.

Logically, can a third temple be built, as described in Ezekiel, right before a planetary earthquake, if Yeshua is going to use it, after the earthquake ?

Geographically it doesn't make sense.
The earthquake literally will raise up and change the geography of the world. Jerusalem will rise and mount Zion become literally taller, scripture says. The structure you're talking about wouldn't last.

Chronologically it doesn't make sense.
It would have to be built after the antichrist arrives per your view, and since he only reigns 3,5 years, you can assume the temple probably wouldn't even be finished in time for him to sit and reign there. It doesn't work out logistically.

(If we allow that the "third temple" be built NOT according to Ezekiel's specifications, then I think your prediction works.)

I don't think 2 Thess is a literal prophetic text. I'm glad you mentioned the heavenly ark, as I think the heavenly temple might be important to understanding some of the prophecies. The battle between the angels of Yeshua and the angels of Hasatan was also in heaven, it was not on earth.

Anyway, we may find out soon enough. Have a good Sabbath.

 

[visionary]

I don't think Ezekiel's will be the one built by man's hands. We know the battle between Satan and God will finish here on earth... He knows it will be short..

 

[Hoshiyya]

I don't think Ezekiel's will be the one built by man's hands. We know the battle between Satan and God will finish here on earth... He knows it will be short..

OK well none of that addresses the chronological or geographical problems. As to saying the third temple will not be built with human hands, what does that mean ?